mikedee Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 I EXPERIENCED plenty of 8 v 16 ...8 v 24 ...8 v zerg fights that were competitive though in a game structured for open world RvR/PvP. Hell, some of the best fights I had were extending a zerg half way across a zone and killing them all despite being out numbered 10 to 1. Of course a game has to have both meaningful CC and hard counters to that CC for that to be possible ...outside of a game engine that can handle it. This particular game has none of that. Of course the 8v8 fights were great too...... And you never thought to yourself why are we fighting these noobs? Real pvp isn't pros beating up scrubs... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pathiss Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 DAOC never got more than 250k subscribers, and warhammer was an epic fail. Warhammer was an epic fail for the same reason SWTOR is going to be an epic fail and is already headed that direction. You can't throw DAOC into the comparison because the game way predated WOW, and WOW was responsible for making MMOs ubiquitous. Not to mention DAOC had more than 250k subscribers at peak ....the amount they had relevant to that particular time frame was a huge amount of the market. Given that the market today is easily 10 times larger ..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khoraji Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 I EXPERIENCED plenty of 8 v 16 ...8 v 24 ...8 v zerg fights that were competitive though in a game structured for open world RvR/PvP. Hell, some of the best fights I had were extending a zerg half way across a zone and killing them all despite being out numbered 10 to 1. Of course a game has to have both meaningful CC and hard counters to that CC for that to be possible ...outside of a game engine that can handle it. This particular game has none of that. Of course the 8v8 fights were great too...... I doubt you ever killed anyone 10 vs 1, but OK. If they had been ANY good at all, you would have been wiped out. Why? not because they were better than you, but because they had more people. This can be fun, but it is no way competitive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khoraji Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 Warhammer was an epic fail for the same reason SWTOR is going to be an epic fail and is already headed that direction. You can't throw DAOC into the comparison because the game way predated WOW, and WOW was responsible for making MMOs ubiquitous. Not to mention DAOC had more than 250k subscribers at peak ....the amount they had relevant to that particular time frame was a huge amount of the market. Given that the market today is easily 10 times larger ..... I only through around those numbers because some pubstar was telling me I have no pvp experience because i never played DAOC. Just trying to point out that alot of people never played it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pathiss Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 And you never thought to yourself why are we fighting these noobs? Real pvp isn't pros beating up scrubs... Real pros get into an 8v8 fight with anothr competitive group, get jammed by 2 other groups from a third realm... extend sideways out from the sandwich to confuse the situation... and end up killing them all. Real pros handle the randomness as well as the static. Real pros handle an 8v8 fight that gets jammed by another 8 man from the same realm and kills all of them. The same real pros can handle it when they run into a zerg open field and destroy them. You are absolutely clueless about what real PvP is. Real PvP is excelling in both competitive matches against skilled opponents -AND- being flexible, inventive, and skilled anough to manage fighting superior numbers when you need to.... in all circumstance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khoraji Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 Real pros get into an 8v8 fight with anothr competitive group, get jammed by 2 other groups from a third realm... extend sideways out from the sandwich to confuse the situation... and end up killing them all. Real pros handle the randomness as well as the static. Real pros handle an 8v8 fight that gets jammed by another 8 man from the same realm and kills all of them. The same real pros can handle it when they run into a zerg open field and destroy them. You are absolutely clueless about what real PvP is. Real PvP is excelling in both competitive matches against skilled opponents -AND- being flexible, inventive, and skilled anough to manage fighting superior numbers when you need to.... in all circumstance. If the losing team in your example was skilled at all, they would beat the other team easily. We arent talking about pros vs scrubs here. 8v8 pro vs pro is the real pvp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pathiss Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 I doubt you ever killed anyone 10 vs 1, but OK. If they had been ANY good at all, you would have been wiped out. Why? not because they were better than you, but because they had more people. This can be fun, but it is no way competitive. You are absolutely clueless and typical of the WOW crowd that thinks they know what real PvP is. I hate to break it to you kid, but the PvP in WOW was dumbed down to appeal to the masses that couldnt excel in a true competitive environment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pathiss Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 If the losing team in your example was skilled at all, they would beat the other team easily. We arent talking about pros vs scrubs here. 8v8 pro vs pro is the real pvp. You didnt read what I wrote. The winning team was obviously the pros. Respond again when you read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faat Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 Everyone hates dieing, but they especially hate dieing not because they were outplayed, but because they are constantly outnumbered or they got out-grinded. THAT is why people un-sub from those games. Those games are for hardcore RPPVPers. not real, competitive pvpers. As for what I am defending, I am defending instanced pvp in general. Open world is fun, but it is not competitive. I kind of agree that defined settings is more competitive, but a game like WAR had both, and still failed. PvP centric games needs more resources and bring less incomes than casual games. Really, PvP games are a niche and pretty much any Devs wanting to start a project with that in mind will have to deal with that audience. They could have made SWTOR more PvP oriented but the same 'rage' would have been exponentially raised on the forums by casuals not having a chance to fight and class imbalances. But SWTOR also missed the mark PvE-wise. This is really a badly designed MMO, there's no challenge in PvE and PvP is botched. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CadB Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 WoW, the most popular MMO of all time, the only MMO that made it into the popular online leagues is just a placeholder....and I am a fish in a little bowl huh? its obvious your only experience in pvp is failed open world zergfests that focus more on Roleplay than actual competition. LOL, I guess Walmart is the best department store. And McDonald's is the best dining... based on your logic, at least. Anyways, this guy just lost all credibility by admitting WoW was his frame of reference. Guess what, WoW-boy, mainstream games tend to be anti-pvp because hardcore pvp tends to be unnerving to the casuals, who are just looking to craft/farm/raid in peace. Look no further than UO, the first MMO, which was an awesome FFA pvp game at the start, but slowly shifted away from catering to pvper's (and thus ruining the game imo) to accommodate the casuals. This trend continues today, and so obviously the biggest, most monetarily successfully games, will have the most isolated pvp venues (e.g. arena, wintergrasp) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pathiss Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 I kind of agree that defined settings is more competitive, but a game like WAR had both, and still failed. PvP centric games needs more resources and bring less incomes than casual games. Really, PvP games are a niche and pretty much any Devs wanting to start a project with that in mind will have to deal with that audience. They could have made SWTOR more PvP oriented but the same 'rage' would have been exponentially raised on the forums by casuals not having a chance to fight and class imbalances. But SWTOR also missed the mark PvE-wise. This is really a badly designed MMO, there's no challenge in PvE and PvP is botched. The thing is, for a modern game to be successful, it has to have the content to appeal to a wide variety of players. It has to have viable pve content AND viable pvp content. There has to be competitive play in addition to dynamic play. An ideal world for me as a PvPer would by dynamic open world combat with a real reason to be there -AND- ranked/competitive warzone style matches. Not either or ...but both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groncho Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 You are absolutely clueless about what real PvP is. Real PvP is excelling in both competitive matches against skilled opponents -AND- being flexible, inventive, and skilled anough to manage fighting superior numbers when you need to.... in all circumstance. yep basically this sadly most of the so called pvp'rs in this game are nothing else than wowkids .... Pvgear's and post adolescent lammers that ask for arenas and duels all the time...they are kind of guys that look who made more damage...instead of putting the focus on tacticts, movements, etc.... sad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faat Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 yep basically this sadly most of the so called pvp'rs in this game are nothing else than wowkids .... Pvgear's and post adolescent lammers that ask for arenas and duels all the time...they are kind of guys that look who made more damage...instead of putting the focus on tacticts, movements, etc.... sad I miss the days where I would log on my PC in the morning to read all the QQ about gigantic clashes in RvR, read people calling names and challenging guilds / alliances for another fight the next evening, the desire to get better to make your opponents shut their traps, to post SS and videos of a particular troll's guild / alliance ownage, the HATE for some people, the LOVE to HATE these people. This is competition, that can only be found in RvR games, where an alliance of good players can really dominate an entire server, even with lesser numbers. What a great challenge that was playing WAR on the outnumbered realm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
damolawler Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 Look at Eve Online and World of Tanks. Two game that are both centered around PvP (especially WoT which is exclusively PvP) and both are very sucessful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faat Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 The thing is, for a modern game to be successful, it has to have the content to appeal to a wide variety of players. It has to have viable pve content AND viable pvp content. There has to be competitive play in addition to dynamic play. An ideal world for me as a PvPer would by dynamic open world combat with a real reason to be there -AND- ranked/competitive warzone style matches. Not either or ...but both. Unfortunately, WAR / Rift tried, but failed. Both had challenging PvE and good PvP, yet they failed to get players to leave WoW. SWTOR is so mind-numbingly easy, I don't recall playing a game that easy in my life, and I'm 31. I feel like I'm playing any game in Godmode when I do my class story. I basically never lose any health. on my operative, Send my companion in, I backstab the mobs, rinse repeat. On my bounty hunter, i don't even need a companion, I just death from above them then use my basic attack while eating a sandwich. Mind you, those two 50s are on dead servers, that were 'heavy' when I created them. That says something about the sad state of the game. GW1 had much better competitive PvP than WoW. Saying WoW as the most competitive PvP game, because of their ranking and tournaments, is completely missing the mark. popular =/ better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armelle Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 Fighting people because you need what they have just seems too hostile for most players. This is the demarcation point between those that have evolved past being cavemen, and those that haven't . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikedee Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 You didnt read what I wrote. The winning team was obviously the pros. Respond again when you read. There is no 8v16 that the 8 man group is winning unless the 16 other players they are fighting are afk/extremely bad. The truth is you kids want to hide in numbers. BTW I love world pvp(aka ganking). I find i can beat 3+ solo. This just means the competition is bad. I bring a group of 4 awesome pvpers to world pvp(gank with me) we can take up to 12+ noobs easy. This is because there is no competition. Yes we are good. But they are just that bad. Equal geared/skilled players should never lose a 2v1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phinion Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 it's the number of server too high i doubt a game with 1.000.000 player will get extint even if other 400.000 leave is still 3 times the population of war-hammer that is not extinted yet you people have no clue they did open too many server and they paid it (i would personally fire who made that decision yeah there were queque but who care you lose more now that u would have lost with a little of que) people on this forum is such a drama queen From what I remember of launch the masses complained so much that the login que was to long. Some where well over an houor or two just to play th egame. Making people wait to play the game will result in people leaving. The people demanded more servers to drop the que times. So BW adds more servers and tweaks the system to allow more players on. No problem with this right? Except that BW who claims they knew 25% or so of the population will leave the game in the first 3 months did not have a backup plan in place to do something filling the void on those servers of the missing people. Character transfers should have been in game at launch or at the very least within 2 months of launch. The last part being about month 5 or 6 and merging servers. keeping the people who are still playing on populated servers at all times should have been a main goal that had a plan whether it happened or not. One of those plan and prepare for the worst and hope it does not happen. Never hurts to be prepared. Think they missed this step. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustTray Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 Blame the DPSers for making all the healers quit. They QQ'ed and we were left with dps races in warzones. Blame premades for ruining what little pvp was left. No one likes going into matches hugely unfavored. But mostly, blame the Devs, because they were unable to not listen to the QQ, and implemented sweeping changes that killed this game. (thankfully many of them have now been appropriately fired - hopefully they don't get jobs ruining more games) And lastly, pray that whoever they have now promoted to the position has any idea of what they're doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valsdad Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 We caught that you prefer to have elite numbers over elite skill. It's cool that you caught that, but I didn't throw it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valsdad Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 Everyone hates dieing, but they especially hate dieing not because they were outplayed, but because they are constantly outnumbered or they got out-grinded. THAT is why people un-sub from those games. Those games are for hardcore RPPVPers. not real, competitive pvpers. As for what I am defending, I am defending instanced pvp in general. Open world is fun, but it is not competitive. Yet you say people are quitting because they were "out-grinded", which is the entire basis of the instanced pvp treadmill. I'm confused as to what you are trying to convey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtfnonamefree Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 (edited) OP - Since you're obviously struggling with the meaning of certain terms, I highly recommend brushing up on your knowledge here: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/noone http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truth as opposed to: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/everyone http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exaggeration Edited May 23, 2012 by wtfnonamefree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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