Endgame kills crafting

[Kanana]

The Endgame kills crafting. While leveling up to 50, crafting is great. Whatever skill you have, you can use it. Armormech, synthweave, artifice, cybertech, arsmtech, biochem - all produce useful items for any character or their companions. You'll usually wear a mix of loot, reward and crafted pieces.

 

But as soon as you reach 50, crafting is rendered useless. Yes, there are a few niches, like augments, or crit crafted gear - soon to be replaced with augment kits - and maybe vanity armor, but that's it. No one who has been 50 for a while wants the non-orange armor suits you can make. No one wants the purple weapons you can craft.

 

Even the consumable market, usually a halfway decent way to earn money in games, is dead since everyone is biochem already for the reusable stims and med packs.

 

The only way to save crafting - meaningful crafting - is to stop protecting low-level raid gear. Bioware needs to boost crafted gear so it's competitive with at least third-best raid gear (Recruit, Collumni at the moment), and adjust that as soon as a new tier of gear comes out. If you really want people to keep running the flashpoints, make it so people can convert old comms and crystals and whaever to comms for the new tier.

 

But unless you get off the "raiders über alles" trip and finally boost crafted gear past tionese loot, crafting will remain a bait and switch, lots of fun and use from 10 to 49, and suddenly worthless when you hit 50.

[teemoor]

You can already craft Exotech items = Columi.

[Kanana]

Anything that needs raid drops is not real crafting, just an added time sink on raid loot. I am talking about crafting without having to raid.

[Aetou]

Anything that needs raid drops is not real crafting, just an added time sink on raid loot. I am talking about crafting without having to raid.

 

Not really. The BoP stuff isn't real crafting, true, but things like Columi Implants or Exotech Stims are definitely real crafting as you generally aren't making them for yourself and can make a limitless amount of them. Now, you may not like the fact that to make top-end items you need to do operations but the fact that you choose not to do the content doesn't mean that the content doesn't exist.

[Helgarm]

But unless you get off the "raiders über alles" trip and finally boost crafted gear past tionese loot, crafting will remain a bait and switch, lots of fun and use from 10 to 49, and suddenly worthless when you hit 50.

 

Worthless to whom?

 

And what measure of worth are you looking for?

 

If you are expecting to craft the highest tier gear without participating in any of the endgame content, then you're asking for a lot. And if you are not interested in participating in any of the endgame content, then why do you want the endgame gear?

 

The crafting system in this game isn't bad. It actually allows you to craft the high end raid and pvp gear. Yes, you need to participate in the content, but do you not think it unreasonable to get access to such gear without any participation? And as for equivalent gear, why? It is clear what the gear is designed for, and thus the path taken to obtain it seems just.

 

Your claim that crafting is dead at 50 belies a very limited perspective. If you want to make money then you can easily do so. Not every person is level 50, not every person wants to raid and pvp at endgame. Here is your market, if market is what you are looking for. Augments, crit items (and soon kits) remain the province of crafters. And crafted items are generally superior to quest rewards and most loot drops.

 

I agree that the level 50 market is flooded, but the lower levels have plenty of scope for opportunity.

 

But I sense that it isn't market opportunity that irks you, but your inability to equip yourself with the highest tier gear without participating in the highest tier content. I am not aware of any crafting system that has permitted this, and with good reason as I have already stated.

 

If there is an argument to be made here, then perhaps the way schematics are obtained might be rethought. The RNG method, particularly for REing high end gear, is a very unrewarding system. And drop rates are equally irritating. Better to grant the schematics for commendations or some such, thus allowing for a visible progression towards the desired item, rather than random chance.

 

H.

[Kanana]

Not the highest tier gear, but crafting should always offer third or second-best gear. Otherwise it'll be utterly obsolete one or two more tiers down the road.

 

And no, a crafter should not have to do raids to be able to craft.

[Helgarm]

Not the highest tier gear, but crafting should always offer third or second-best gear. Otherwise it'll be utterly obsolete one or two more tiers down the road.

 

And no, a crafter should not have to do raids to be able to craft.

 

Then you should be happy, for this is what we have.

 

H.

[Kanana]

No, we haven't. Tionese and Collumni blow crafted gear away - even more so once you can augment them. Recruit-level gear for pvp gear can't be crafted at all.

 

I stress again: If you have to loot a rare component in a raid to craft an item, then that's not crafting, that's looting.

[parmie]

I'd like to see Ops schematic drops as Bind to legcy rather than BoP, we've had a few schem drops where no one has the craft skill, yes that could be our balance issue but it's a shame to waste them totally. That way at least one toon each player has must raid, but if someone wants to keep an alt at level 35 just for crafting then why not.

 

Endgame is not killing crafting but as a crafter you currently must go on Ops to keep it alive for yourself.

[Helgarm]

I'd like to see Ops schematic drops as Bind to legcy rather than BoP, we've had a few schem drops where no one has the craft skill, yes that could be our balance issue but it's a shame to waste them totally. That way at least one toon each player has must raid, but if someone wants to keep an alt at level 35 just for crafting then why not.

 

Endgame is not killing crafting but as a crafter you currently must go on Ops to keep it alive for yourself.

 

Yes, this is sensible. But it wouldn't alleviate the OP's issue, since they, as a player, don't want to participate in the content. They just want to be able to have /craft similar gear as that obtained through doing so, but without the effort.

 

H.

[UCKFred]

The lack of loss is what kills endgame crafting. Everyone can just keep on wearing the best they've found. The only thing this game's economy can count on to extend it is to add more players, level up alts, and add new features. If we ever really want that level 49 stuff to matter, then people's armor will have to be destroyed or repaired in some way that uses crafted items.

[Kanana]

For the last time: I said second to thrid best gear should be crafted, not best.

 

Raiding is looting, not crafting. There is no difference between looting a token you turn in at an NPC for a bracer and looting a rare material you turn into an item with your companion. You're not crafting, you're looting in raids.

 

As long as raiding is the be all end all of gear aquisition, crafting will always be useless.

[Thundergulch]

I stress again: If you have to loot a rare component in a raid to craft an item, then that's not crafting, that's looting.

 

you don't have to loot it, you can buy it on the GTN.

[Kanana]

I can also buy loot on the GTN.

 

The idea that you have to raid to craft is wrong, and only serves to stress how raiding kills crafting.

[asbalana]

Yes, this is sensible. But it wouldn't alleviate the OP's issue, since they, as a player, don't want to participate in the content. They just want to be able to have /craft similar gear as that obtained through doing so, but without the effort.

 

H.

 

No.

 

First, if the only content at 50 is raid then the game is raid or die, that is a fail formula and will exclude a very large number of players who will leave. The raiders are better, earn everything, and need more discussion was beaten to death in a number of threads pre launch. There was no conclusion. The raiders were unshakeable in their opinions and the non raiders in theirs.

 

Second, I remember the pre launch promises about crafting. A crafter who was a soloist was supposed to be able to craft gear just a smidgeon below raid gear. I remember the raiders coughing up hair balls at the concept and screaming like all heck. Many many crafting lovers were as happy as pie. Of course, the promise was never kept.

 

If I want to craft why should I have to raid to be at the top of my profession? If I raid why should I have a huge crafting advantage over all other crafters?

 

Basically crafting is the same here as in that other game, just a tool to force people who love to craft into group content that they do not want to do.

[uniz]

The Endgame kills crafting. While leveling up to 50, crafting is great. Whatever skill you have, you can use it. Armormech, synthweave, artifice, cybertech, arsmtech, biochem - all produce useful items for any character or their companions. You'll usually wear a mix of loot, reward and crafted pieces.

 

But as soon as you reach 50, crafting is rendered useless. Yes, there are a few niches, like augments, or crit crafted gear - soon to be replaced with augment kits - and maybe vanity armor, but that's it. No one who has been 50 for a while wants the non-orange armor suits you can make. No one wants the purple weapons you can craft.

 

Even the consumable market, usually a halfway decent way to earn money in games, is dead since everyone is biochem already for the reusable stims and med packs.

 

The only way to save crafting - meaningful crafting - is to stop protecting low-level raid gear. Bioware needs to boost crafted gear so it's competitive with at least third-best raid gear (Recruit, Collumni at the moment), and adjust that as soon as a new tier of gear comes out. If you really want people to keep running the flashpoints, make it so people can convert old comms and crystals and whaever to comms for the new tier.

 

But unless you get off the "raiders über alles" trip and finally boost crafted gear past tionese loot, crafting will remain a bait and switch, lots of fun and use from 10 to 49, and suddenly worthless when you hit 50.

 

every few months this topic comes up and now it has reappeared. alot of new inexperienced mmo players want the shinny end game gear without putting forth the time and effort killing the content for it.

 

this type of system has been around in mmos for years. if you want end game content you PLAY the endgame. you can get all three mod types from the dailies or just make your own. this is type of gear is fine for entry level hard modes and story mode ops which you can get your gear that you WANT without it easily GIVEN to you via crafting. this is your begining RAID gear. so what you want is already in game and crewsills at 50 are not worthless.

 

however a better solution might be to have schematics that uses the tokens you get through raiding or the hard modes. this MAKES you still do the content. make these schematics usable by EVERY crew skill and the mats are the TOKENS you get from the hardmodes or ops. the benefit is to make the gear at a REDUCED token cost. instead of buying the gear for 55 tokens you can make it for 40 for example. the only difficult part here would be how to get the schematics which i am sure can be ironed out. it would be easier if the schematics had the ENTIRE armor set like all light armor, medium strength, medium cunning, heavy aim, and heavy strength for example. just dont make the schematics harder to get than the gear or tokens which will be self defeating.

 

it is just plain wrong to have any raid gear given to you without doing the content. the hard modes are not that difficult if you do them in order. the main problem for most of us now is getting a group to do them. your crafting solution (and mine) isnt going to resolve this either

[Thundergulch]

every few months this topic comes up and now it has reappeared. alot of new inexperienced mmo players want the shinny end game gear without putting forth the time and effort killing the content for it.

 

don't have to read any more than this.

because it's so true.

[Teykos]

I can also buy loot on the GTN.

 

The idea that you have to raid to craft is wrong, and only serves to stress how raiding kills crafting.

 

Yes, it sure takes a lot of raiding to craft custom shells with augment slots.

[murshawursha]

I can also buy loot on the GTN.

 

The idea that you have to raid to craft is wrong, and only serves to stress how raiding kills crafting.

 

See, this is where you're wrong. If I want to craft, I don't have to raid. Since the crafting materials are all BoE now, I can just buy high-end crafting materials from somebody who DOES raid. SOMEBODY has to raid, but if I don't want to, I don't have to. That's what we call an economy, which forces interactions between players. A raider gets mats that he sells to a crafter, who then crafts armor that he can sell to whoever he wants.

[asbalana]

every few months this topic comes up and now it has reappeared. alot of new inexperienced mmo players want the shinny end game gear without putting forth the time and effort killing the content for it.

 

this type of system has been around in mmos for years.

 

All hail the raiding elite.

 

Indeed the topic has been around mmos for years and with good reason. Many people who choose not to raid have reached cap in varied mmos, taken a good look, and left. A bad idea does not get better with time, it just smells more.

 

Even the dim bulbs at that other game are starting to get it and are at least paying lip service to with Pandas will come content and progression for non raiders. We will see.

 

I do not care about the raid content, but am tired of being a second rate entity and limited or behind in non raiding applications because I have no path to progress and grow in many areas on account of the fact that I do not raid.

 

Raid or die means to many - play though the game, get to cap, if you are not to bored roll an alt or if you are just leave. Not a shiny penultimate business model no matter how ego gratifying to some.

[Khevar]

...

 

I do not care about the raid content, but am tired of being a second rate entity and limited or behind in non raiding applications because I have no path to progress and grow in many areas on account of the fact that I do not raid.

 

...

 

Now, I'm actually curious about something (note that I haven't yet reached 50 on any of my alts -- this is an honest question for you).

 

If you aren't doing raiding, what would you need this gear for? My understanding is that the end game gear is only needed for end game content.

 

Are you trying to get the gear just to have it?

[GnatB]

you don't have to loot it, you can buy it on the GTN.

 

Except the schematics are all BoP, or from REing items that are BoP. So whether or not you can buy the mats doesn't much matter if you have to be a raider to get the schematics.

 

If you aren't doing raiding, what would you need this gear for? My understanding is that the end game gear is only needed for end game content.

 

Selling? Crafting? Providing gear people actually want to have/use? Liking how it looks? Status symbols?

 

'Course, I'll readily admit that I dislike BoP in general, (or heck, even level/stat restrictions on equipment. If somebody can afford to outfit themselves in endgame gear at lvl 1, more power to him. IIRC it was when they started adding lvl restrictions and such to items in EQ that I started losing all interest in it. I *liked* being a lvl 20 in practically full endgame gear.)

 

(P.S. I happen to subscribe to the school of thought that crafted gear, using raid mats, shouldn't be 2nd or 3rd highest quality. It should be TOP quality. Good crafters should be sought after. IMO that's one of the things EQ did well for at least some of the professions. In almost all the time I played, the best bows and arrows came from crafters either directly, (darkwood bows, trueshot, crafted planar bows) or indirectly (raincaller)) Parts may come from quests/drops, but then needed to be crafted into a final product. Or quest might require a crafted item to return the final product.)

Edited May 22, 2012 by GnatB

[Mathias_Varr]

Those rare crafting materials drop in Hard Mode flashpoints too. They're not guaranteed drops, but they're there. So you don't have to raid to get some Rakata pieces or even Exotech.

 

I made two Augmented Rakata Relics before I ever set foot in a raid and I have an Augmented Lightsaber now. The crafting enhanced my Endgame, and my Endgame is enhancing my crafting. They're working together. It's the Augment kits that will kill my crafting. Currently the only reason to be artifice is to crit-craft relics and augment lightsabers. We won't be able to make Augment kits and it'll probably be more cost effective to buy the kits to augment things instead of wasting time and resources trying to crit craft. And Augmented Campaign relics will replace crafted Rakata relics as BiS so there won't be any reason to be Artifice anymore

 

Or is the problem that you don't want to do group content at all? In that case, MMOs are not for you. They are mostly made to played with other people. And if you have no intention of doing group content, why do you need this gear at all? the Quest Greens and Blues and Custom gear you have from leveling and finishing your story solo is enough, because if you want to play solo, once you finish your story, this game has nothing left for you.

 

The most pertinent question of my post is this. Why do crafters deserve to make Raid level gear without having to put in the same amount of effort that Raiders do? Have you ever tried to align the stars so you can field eight people with specific skills and speciallizations, spaced out all over the country in different time zones, to get together for an amount of time to complete a raid, not-withstanding the time and effort to teach them the mechanics, or getting people who already know the mechanics? That's more effort than the raids actually are, and the raiders are rewarded for putting in that effort. What effort are crafters putting in? I levelled my Artifice from level 1-400 and all it cost was time and credits. I didn't even have to be online to make things.

[dufox]

here is the problem with crafting and endgame.

 

when your leveling up whatever you craft you dont need to buy/farm

 

when you hit 50 if you craft something thats better or just as good as a farmed item why farm it?

 

they actually did a good job of putting alot of need in crafting in endgame.

but in the end, endgame is all about farming.

crafting is for entry level gear and for making money

[pokota]

BioWare's big mistake, as far as I'm concerned, is that they invalidated the traditional niche crafting has always occupied in most MMOs, which is the highest level of pre-raid gear.

 

The first screw-up is easy to see. Daily questing offers equivalent or better mods to what base-level crafting can make, and better quality ear-pieces and implants. I started this game in pre-launch, and got my character up to max Cybertech before level 30. I remember how excited I was to get the schematics for the level 49 Armoring and Mods that I would need when I reached that point.

 

However, I never made a single one of them. Back then, mandalorian iron was selling for 15k each, while you could basically get the mods for free just by doing some quests. It was like some kind of vicious joke.

 

Now, they've further invalidated that tier by allowing instance-farmers to craft and sell gear that obliterates it. I have a character that's never been inside of any level 50 group instances AT ALL sitting on Fleet with iLvl 25 mods. Seriously?

 

Pre-raid tier has been bypassed by purchasable raid-tier. It's an absolute mess. There is no structure, no cohesive design.

 

BioWare basically only cares about having you as a customer if you're a raider. Which is fine, it's their game. But that isn't what they promised as far as crafting is concerned. However, I quit raiding in SWTOR because, frankly, I found it to be boring. I turned to leveling alts, instead.

 

I would have been perfectly content, as a non-raider, to craft high level pre-raid gear. BioWare removing that tier from the hands of non-raiders pretty much means that most people who play this game for crafting will eventually go elsewhere. I hope that's what they wanted, because that's what they will probably get.