MortisMortavius Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 The point is that "jerks" will abuse any tool, even chat channels. Is that a good reason to exclude a good tool, like Recount? Exactly Amanda, but you're taking a logical argument to someone with an irrational position Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MortisMortavius Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 Yes. You are totally entitled to your own belief / opinion but now I think you're just being greedy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frostedchill Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 I think if you only can see your own dps fine, but posting or seeing anyone else no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthRaneDeer Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 Let me opine for a momnet on this topic. Firstly, should a performance meter be provided by Bioware? My answer would be yes. As with the rest of the UI, I would appreciate it being customizable. The closer we get to the source of the data the better, the less manipulation the better. Secondly should a peformance meter be provided via a third party using an API developed by Bioware? My answer would again be yes, as long as the data is gained via an API and not from a parser, I would be ok with this. See above for reasoning. Thirdly, should a performance meter exist in any way in SWTOR? My answer would be yes. It is a very useful mechanism. As a tank I'd like to know what my TPS is for x, y or z approach for a given event. I'd like to see how and when I am avoiding/resisting/absorbing damage. The issue is not the tool. Inanimate objects with no sentience are rarely at fault for causing people emotional distress. However; people most certainly are almost always at the heart of these issues. On either side we choose to communicate and receive communication in ways that can be upsetting. Performance meters can be an anchor for these types of issues. For those that fear them, I would propose that you instead look to them as beacons to expose either others you might not jive well with or as an opportunity for you to idenfity why you fear the transparency provided by a performanc meter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Airwren Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 No. My reason: It's ******** and used by failures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silvarea Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 NO!, I don't, and I'll be glad if they never add it and they keep all third party apps out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
copter Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 The point is that "jerks" will abuse any tool, even chat channels. Is that a good reason to exclude a good tool, like Recount? How is it good if you are dependent on it to complete raids? These tools are NOT needed, contrary to popular belief. As for not being able to watch 15 other people, that is also false. I have been in 24 man raids that didn't have these problems and also didn't use these tools. These same raids were successful. It is called teamwork. If someone is new or having lag issues then the rest of the raid should be picking up the slack as a team. I have had raids do this for me, and I have done it for other players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CorvusKahn Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 You are totally entitled to your own belief / opinion but now I think you're just being greedy And what's wrong with being greedy eh? I paid for the darn-blasted game, it should be exactly what I want! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guancyto Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 Once things get up to Operations and Heroic Flashpoints, sure. Especially for Ops, you can't just eyeball it with that many people inside, and encounter design will probably incorporate some burn elements. Before that, though? Meh^infinity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vladan Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 (edited) Absolutely not, in any way, shape or form. That would, over time, lead to the game being reduced to nothing but numbers, where nothing matters to the players except the said numbers. It would result in devaluing of all the great content in the game and an increasingly unwelcoming community. Put in other words, it would lead to something similar that WoW is now. And I'm not interested in playing something like that again. Edited December 14, 2011 by Vladan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MortisMortavius Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 (edited) How is it good if you are dependent on it to complete raids? These tools are NOT needed, contrary to popular belief. As for not being able to watch 15 other people, that is also false. I have been in 24 man raids that didn't have these problems and also didn't use these tools. These same raids were successful. It is called teamwork. If someone is new or having lag issues then the rest of the raid should be picking up the slack as a team. I have had raids do this for me, and I have done it for other players. NEEDED, no they are not NEEDED... WANTED, by a large percentage of users, absolutely... You either care about self progression or your don't. If you want to progress as a player, you must have an accurate feedback tool. Without it, you may as well be mashing buttons... you'll never know if a certain spell rotation or priority list is better than another... and you can never improve. EDIT: You can improve in areas such as "staying out of ground effects" etc... but those are trivial and not what meters are for. Edited December 14, 2011 by MortisMortavius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruug Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 NO! NO! and NO! These "damage meters" lead to the most elitisist of attitudes toward players. If you wish to enjoy just playing the game...you should never be subjected to the ramblings of the elitist player who thinks you are not playing up to HIS/HER standards. It is fine to make friendly "suggestions" to people but I have seen people go total "off" on others simply do to these so-called tools. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
copter Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 NEEDED, no they are not NEEDED... WANTED, by a large percentage of users, absolutely... Two false statements. In every argument I have seen during the Beta and since the Early Access started have always stated that they are needed. Show me your proof that these tools are wanted by the majority of users. From all of the different threads I have seen it is at best a 50/50 split, and even then I would guess that the balance actually favors no recount or other addons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MortisMortavius Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 NO! NO! and NO! These "damage meters" lead to the most elitisist of attitudes toward players. If you wish to enjoy just playing the game...you should never be subjected to the ramblings of the elitist player who thinks you are not playing up to HIS/HER standards. It is fine to make friendly "suggestions" to people but I have seen people go total "off" on others simply do to these so-called tools. How do you progress as a player? If you are DPS, how do you know how well you are damaging? If you are a healer, how do you know how well you are healing? I'm guessing you simply don't care how well you're doing, only that you are playing and having fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheHauntingBard Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 These tools are needed once encounters hit a certain difficulty level where information is required in a bit more ordered fashion than a combat log. If the difficulty level will never be reached the add ons isn't a need it's just something convenient. How ever raid content will be pretty boring for the average player. What makes recount good , well the amount of DPS you do and healing is secondary. What is important to know. - Who didn't interrupt (people aren't honest when it comes to personal mistakes, can't blame them but still it's not nice wiping 10 times in a row because of it. - Players die, was it the lack of healing or did mr yedi got cleaved? - Who didn't dispel or who dispelled that debuff that you're not suppose to dispel. - Friendly fire, who bombed the raid? -How did the tank die. - Recount shows the encounter is bugged and explains exactly how. - Shows how much healers push during certain situations. Perhaps it shows some one topping the meter but it also shows he/she snipes. - Did that yedi just pushed 50% less damage with that gear? These are things you would like to know, when an encounter becomes difficult and punished you for a small mistake you might want to take a look at recount. As healer I like recount it is tool that protects against >>>Blame the healer< it also shows my own mana regeneration and over healing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maydayre Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 Me? I'm just going to accept that the game is going to have challenges that are measured in combat mechanics, and if there's somebody who focuses on the meter too much? Well, they're just as much a problem as those who want to ignore performance and do whatever they want. I completely (see what I did there? ) agree with this point. Uh, no. Don't try to hide behind the "It's just an opinion" claim. There are statements of preference, and statements of fact. Prefer what you like, but when you claim "facts" and "interpretations" well, you may be called to answer for them. I will answer interpretations without a problem. Facts I can't recall claiming. See typo. See typo fixed. Aww, thanks. <3 Oh, I had the similar experience with not needing a tank. It was with a DPS zerg instead, though, nothing productive or innovative. It's the ToR I've seen so far. I don't consider it preferable. Granted, it was going dangerously that way for me as well, without much probability of success (or so I thought at least), so we took a small break to discuss how to deal with the situation and assigned CC/Interrupt/focus on the go and had a blast. Maybe it's just been too long since I experienced that feeling. I'm not sure how you took it that way at all. I just reflected on how I'd prefer a log over observation, with what I consider a whimsical statement. But if you want to be civil, try to avoid characterizing my remarks. Will do. I prefer observation, which I believe has also become apparent by now. Your reply started talking about WOW, being popular, but not the best, which really wasn't directed to what I was saying at all, but just about WOW for some reason. You stated the 'every game' and I resorted to the one I had experience of, didn't mean to incline that you were referring to WoW. You might want to try other games then, or more experience with understanding the design and theory of games. Then you might understand why I neither mentioned WOW. As it has become quite clear, I do not wish to involve myself with a game that needs a parser as a performance tool. I have experience on multiple MMORPG's and WoW is the only one that has had a parser as a central tool for determining performance. So to this, no I wouldn't want to try other games such as WoW. I sense there's a personalization to your discussions. Here's something you might want to consider: I don't have that kind of thing towards you. I don't look at your name, or think of you in this argument. Please respect me as a person enough to leave me out of the argument. This I did not mean as a personal attack, just a random observation and truth be told, I can't be sure it was you. I remember the avatar and nickname without multiple capital letters and starting with a C. Apologies for that. I consider it descriptive, not determinative. True, but you are talking to someone who has said that their only descriptive counterpart for recount is the actual recount addon from WoW. Hardly. You just called me deluded. That's quite provocative. Quite intentionally. Sort of fit the mood. No offense meant. Why would I want to play with everyone? There's plenty of people I won't choose to play with, and that's fine with me. And some people, I might enjoy some things with, but not others. Works fine for me. Doesn't fit my character to be picky. And I have to admit I enjoy wiping multiple times when it's not apparent that someone is screwing it up every single time. It means everyone is trying harder the next time or quits. I enjoy playing with people who have character. Skill is a plus. Not the other way around because like I said, it's not a performance test for me or from my point of view to anyone else. Jerks will always be jerks and that I don't really believe the recount makes a whole lot of difference. My opinion was only that I do not wish to see any kind of mods in this game, including recount. If it was dev-added, I'd take it, sure, but I'd prefer not to. But you are wanting to force something on others, so...no, you aren't giving room for other opinions. You're doing your best to drive others away. That's what you just said. Oh please, it was kinda the whole point of the last paragraph. That is what ultimately I recognize I'd 'hope for' because I believe it would lead to a truly friendly community. But as I also said, I don't really wish for it to happen, but rather try to find ways that more people could be satisfied with the game and the community. Thank you for the chat, I need to hit the sack for tonight if I intend to wake up for work tomorrow morning. I'm not saying you're wrong. Not saying you're right either. And same goes for me. Thanks again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakraka Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 NO! NO! and NO! These "damage meters" lead to the most elitisist of attitudes toward players. If you wish to enjoy just playing the game...you should never be subjected to the ramblings of the elitist player who thinks you are not playing up to HIS/HER standards. It is fine to make friendly "suggestions" to people but I have seen people go total "off" on others simply do to these so-called tools. then don't play with the elitist players... or go play hello kitty island adventure. if im in a raid and we can't down a boss because **** tard is sitting there afk while he smokes or pulls his pud, hell yeah i would kick him. am i an elitist player for sayin that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MortisMortavius Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 Two false statements. In every argument I have seen during the Beta and since the Early Access started have always stated that they are needed. Show me your proof that these tools are wanted by the majority of users. From all of the different threads I have seen it is at best a 50/50 split, and even then I would guess that the balance actually favors no recount or other addons. "large percentage" does not imply a greater than 50% number... nobody knows for sure what the numbers are, I would guess somewhere around 50/50 just from the same discussion from other MMOs. They are NEEDED if you want to progress as a player however... At the very least we should get some damned threat meters... THAT would be nice to know and I'm pretty sure nobody complains about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gothyia Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 No No Recount .. this game is different doesnt need it.. Recount is for elitist anyway i think its mentioned .. play the game and learn your skills well thats all thats needed. besides many changes will happen over the next few months and adjustments of dps will change.. not Needed in anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liaskar Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 Developers don't create the content with the need for damage meters in mind, so why do people feel they are necessary? I can see why some people say they are useful, but I still am not much of a fan. Not to mention that knowing who is not doing their job is easier when raid groups can be only 8 people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CorvusKahn Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 (edited) I don't see a point to adding this, if I'm being serious. Good players already know what they did wrong, and how to improve themselves. Something like this is just an unnecessary tool that while helpful to some, would be misused by others. If you can't learn to play without Recount, maybe you should go back to WoW yes? Edited December 14, 2011 by CorvusKahn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
copter Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 They are NEEDED if you want to progress as a player however... This alone invalidates your own argument of saying that they are not needed, but wanted. Also, large percentage indicates a majority. So again, you are making false arguments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MortisMortavius Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 Developers don't create the content with the need for damage meters in mind, so why do people feel they are necessary? I can see why some people say they are useful, but I still am not much of a fan. Not to mention that knowing who is not doing their job is easier when raid groups can be only 8 people. How do you progress as a player if you don't have a feedback tool? I keep asking this but nobody can answer it because it's an impossible question... You absolutely MUST know HOW well you are doing in order to compare things against each other, otherwise everything you do is just a shot in the dark... It's fine if half the people in the game aren't interested in progressing as a player but the other half (I'm estimating here) IS interested. Why should one half get their way and the other half suffer when if it was implemented as an OPTION then everyone would be happy... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duckforceone Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 oh god not thread nr 11.322 on this subject... enough already Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valhakar Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 No. DPS meters are a plague. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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