Vlaxitov Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 I don't mind damage meters because I'm usually selective and exclusive about who I play mmos with anyway. Damage meters are as bitter as they are sweet. They can wreck raids with recklessness. I've seen some guilds only bring their top DPS in situations that the gear is the difference. Later these guilds usually suffer to fall out in their top DPS and their discluded 2nd place has already moved on. I played with a very good raid leader in vanilla WoW who didn't disclude rather than worked with people who didn't pull weight in dps. One of the rules was you weren't allowed to post the meter in raid. This was extremely effective and made our raid extremely successful. So in the end, its all about how you handle damage meters that makes them good or bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forsbacka Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 (edited) I don't mind damage meters because I'm usually selective and exclusive about who I play mmos with anyway. Damage meters are as bitter as they are sweet. They can wreck raids with recklessness. I've seen some guilds only bring their top DPS in situations that the gear is the difference. Later these guilds usually suffer to fall out in their top DPS and their discluded 2nd place has already moved on. I played with a very good raid leader in vanilla WoW who didn't disclude rather than worked with people who didn't pull weight in dps. One of the rules was you weren't allowed to post the meter in raid. This was extremely effective and made our raid extremely successful. So in the end, its all about how you handle damage meters that makes them good or bad. So how far in Naxx did you make it? Or in AQ40? Edited January 7, 2012 by Forsbacka Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irishbrewed Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 Oh Recount, the reason dps stand in fire........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forsbacka Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 Oh Recount, the reason dps stand in fire........ Every top 100 guild used DPS meters and im quite sure they didnt have any problems with situational awareness even that they used it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irishbrewed Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 Every top 100 guild used DPS meters and im quite sure they didnt have any problems with situational awareness even that they used it. Okay that's great, every top 100. Such a shallow number Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narfwak Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 Every single PvE encounter has an enrage timer. The vast majority of these enrage timers are "aggressive" in that, without consistently high DPS, you cannot meet them without simply overgearing them. Not letting us see how much damage we're actually doing so that we can make adjustments to our strategies, individual ability priorities and rotations does not make much sense. Making unbiased judgements about what abilities, talent specs or entire classes is pretty difficult right now. Like or not, you need data to come to reasonable conclusions. We simply do not have any. Bioware would have a much easier time balancing and fine-tuning the game when we could provide feedback driven by actual numbers and theorycrafters could apply statistical analysis instead of simple guesswork. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abomin Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 Recount is not just a "damage meter"... it is a graphical interface which allows you to view group activity in the combat log i.e. Damage Done over the duration of the fight by each player, Friendly Fire, Damage Taken, Healing Done, Absorbs, Healing Taken, Overhealing Done, Deaths, DOT Uptime, HOT Uptime, Player Combat Activity, Dispels, The Dispelled, Interrupts, Ressers, CC Breakers, Resources Gained, etc. I believe these tools play an important role in identifying whether a player is doing well or under-performing. Nevertheless, these graphs should be the starting point – an indicator that you should be looking more closely at the situation. Used wisely, a tool like this could greatly improve guild performance. Some individuals are fearful of an "elitist" backlash caused by the improper use of such a tool. Nevertheless, people have also argued that this tool would actually curb elitist behavior based on FACTS and DATA rather than Gear, Achievements, Spec, Gut Feeling or Favoritism. The inevitability of undesirable behavior isn't something we can escape in a massive online community, so the real question is... Would you rather be castigated based on factual data or would you rather take your chances with the "hunch" of a self seeking jerk? With Recount Jerk: Dude please leave the group your DPS sucks. Without Recount Jerk: Dude please leave the group you are wearing a green helm and your gear isn't good enough for this encounter. (You get kicked, even if you were top DPS) - EDIT: It would also totally eliminate "recount spam". They could disable all data broadcasts... If everyone has access to the information there would be no need to broadcast the results. EDIT UPDATE: - During the speed-fire round starting at 13:00 in the video. Georg confirms an out of game COMBAT LOG! People will have access to combat logs please bring a recount version in the game! I think Georg Zoeller understands our pain for not having a combat log at launch, let's hope they "get it right" and quickly. People who don't like Recount. Always someone wanting to turn in another game to be exactly like wow, to many post all sugesting things from wow into Swtor. I seeing this sugestion for recount a excuse to throw players out of a party or something because they not doing enough dps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forsbacka Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 Okay that's great, every top 100. Such a shallow number Was meaning that its not possible to make max hard boss encounters without meters and standing in fire cause of recount is only for bad players, recount or not they are bad anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hairless Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 Also, people using recount will always check recount throughout the fight, which is why you always get shouts of "more DPS" "more healing on x and y" "watch your aggro" etc etc in WoW raids. If you don't know that then stop talking. ROFL. Recount isn't the reason why people call out those things. If the raid leader is calling out more DPS, it's because adds aren't dying, enrage is about to happen, boss hp is too high for phase transition, and etc. You don't look at Recount for these information. Probably DBM. Derp. He's not a cheerleader shouting "YEA MORE DPS!" while monitoring everyone's dps on Recount. "more healing on x and y" You look at unit/raid frames for that. Again, not Recount. "watch your aggro" Threat meter. Not Recount. Have you ever been in a proper raid? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GalacticKegger Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 (edited) Recount helps good players get recognized.Good players don't need a meter to get recognized, combat log reviews do that. Meters are for spectating, so a built-in version of Recount's combat log feature would be nice. Other than metering output on a targeting dummy, the rest is for epeeners. Edited January 7, 2012 by GalacticKegger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irishbrewed Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 (edited) Recount leads to bad players, plain and simple. You can't tell the average pve dps hero to stop worrying about is imaginary epeen and help actually down something. Most dps install recount and spend there whole time obsessing over it, as a tank it drove me nuts. Do we know that there is some kinda hard dps race boss in the game requiring meters? No this is not Warcraft and the developers aren't relying on the player base to have a meter installed to effectively complete something. It's a crutch that does nothing but give dps players an excuse to Not pay attention to what really matters. Edited January 7, 2012 by Irishbrewed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
choboon Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 Lets get Recount, every time you fall below the expectations your char gets slapped and a towncrier advises people they should do the /laugh emote whenever they spot you. Give the ones that fufil expectations a medal and a chance for the "gamer of the month" award. Lets get tools for all other things aswell, loads of matrixes for everything so we dont have to talk, socialise, try out stuff and actually take time to complete things while simply enjoying the company of people we play with. We need it ALL and NOW. Subpar performance has no place here. What a sorry state the world is in.... Flame it all you want, people have a serious attitude problem towards life which is unfortunately also translated into the kind of ingame behaviour and expectations that we see. Is it a generation problem ? I dont know but its scary... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vaegaknight Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 (edited) I actually considered a better solution to this. What if - and this is a big what if. What if, when Bioware adds guild capital ships... To those ships they add combat simulators. You can fight weaker versions of bosses you've already fought in hologram form. For learning purposes. Positioning, etc, etc. To train new people or to warm up or to just get in a bit of practice. Let's say you loot an ID code when you defeat a new boss and you can input it in the guilds computer, this would work for operations, world bosses and flashpoints. Included in this could be training droids which record your effective DPS on the ships computer. So everyone in the guild and ONLY in the guild could go to a computer screen much like the galaxy screen we see when going to new planets and everyone's HPS/DPS/TPS will be displayed in a handy dandy chart along with other neat stats, whatever they could come up with. This would solve a bunch of issues, the people wanting to know their DPS will know their DPS and can train whenever and it would add something entirely new that I don't think MMO's have had before. Just me dreaming. But... Yeah. Edit: I didn't read the thread, or any of these threads really. So if this idea has already come up I apologize. Edited January 7, 2012 by Vaegaknight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maximusedward Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 (edited) Here we go again I'm pretty sure many people who hates WoW for a living have already stated why they hate dpsmeters with one hit singles like If my dps isnt high enough I wont be abbe to hang out with all the kool kids. Edited January 7, 2012 by maximusedward Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GalacticKegger Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 I actually considered a better solution to this. What if - and this is a big what if. What if, when Bioware adds guild capital ships... To those ships they add combat simulators.Nice! How about having meters built into targeting droids? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forsbacka Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 (edited) Recount leads to bad players, plain and simple. You can't tell the average pve dps hero to stop worrying about is imaginary epeen and help actually down something. Most dps install recount and spend there whole time obsessing over it, as a tank it drove me nuts. Do we know that there is some kinda hard dps race boss in the game requiring meters? No this is not Warcraft and the developers aren't relying on the player base to have a meter installed to effectively complete something. It's a crutch that does nothing but give dps players an excuse to Not pay attention to what really matters. So you want fights where only survival matters? No mater if the DPS is 50% or 100% of the max DPS it just takes longer? Whats the role for DPS then if its only down to healers and tnaks if your group fails or not. In WoW many fights were hars hard DPS races where everyone had to perform almost flawlessy, if your group didnt do enough DPS you wiped. If DPS doesnt matter, you can then down any boss, just takes longer. IM sure when youre raid has wiped 500 times on heroic ragnaros like best guild in the world you would like to see if your DPS is enough and if other people are doing enough DPS also and make needed corrections to your own rotation or to your group. Edited January 7, 2012 by Forsbacka Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vaegaknight Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 (edited) Nice! How about having meters built into targeting droids? They could be, yes. The stats saved to the computer would just be used for progressions' sake. To see improvements, to see who your core players are. You would not be able to take this information into random flashpoints with random people. So there would be no elitist nonsense with booting people from groups. With your guildies though? You should have that level of control. Edited January 7, 2012 by Vaegaknight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hairless Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 (edited) You're pretty dumbed down on this. You're generalising massively and it does not help good players get recognised that's ridiculous. It helps players (of any type, good or bad) let people know the damage per second/healing per second/10 other things overall and per second that they can do in a fight. It does NOT let someone know if you have good situational awareness, knowledge of the fight and if you can quickly pick up tactics, or if you're a good player in any way. And again, you demonstrate your utter lack of knowledge in this matter. There are tabs that show "Damage Taken" "Damage Done" "Healing Taken" "Healing Done" "Interrupted" "Decursed" and etc. Those are pretty good information, other than DPS, to help identify good and bad players. Good player would obviously have less damage taken(It also shows where the damage came from so you can tell if someone failed at a firewall or pulled aggro). He would also have more interrupts and decurses done. And you can also look at the Damage Done tab to see how much actual damage he did during the course of the fight. It also shows who have been dpsing the adds/spikes and who haven't. Damage meters are incredibly useful, it's not just for looking at DPS and HPS. Edited January 7, 2012 by Hairless Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forsbacka Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 They could be, yes. The stats saved to the computer would just be used for progressions sake. To see improvements, to see who your core players are. You would not be able to take this information into random flashpoints with random people. So there would be no elitist nonsense with booting people from groups. With your guildies though? You should have that level of control. Dont think people are asking the meters for flashpoints or pugs. But if they ever add any challenging boss fights in this game you have to have meters in your guild to down em. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vaegaknight Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 And again, you demonstrate your utter lack of knowledge in this matter. There are tabs that show "Damage Taken" "Damage Done" "Healing Taken" "Healing Done" "Interrupted" "Decursed" and etc. Those are pretty good information, other than DPS, to help identify good and bad players. Good player would obviously have less damage taken. He would also have more interrupts and decurses done. And you can also look at the Damage Done tab to see how much actual damage he did during the course of the fight. It also shows who have been dpsing the adds/spikes and who haven't. Damage meters are incredibly useful, it's not just for looking at DPS and HPS. And those could be put into a chart during operations, a chart not unlike the chart you see for Warzones. No actual recorded DPS/TPS/HPS. Just the necessary stats to see who is contributing. There's no need for a real-time damage meter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vaegaknight Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 (edited) Dont think people are asking the meters for flashpoints or pugs. But if they ever add any challenging boss fights in this game you have to have meters in your guild to down em. That's not the point. You don't have to have meters. Any good group of raiders should know who is doing well and who is not up to snuff. My idea is just a unique way of doing things with some TOR flavor. It would make both sides of this argument happy. Edited January 7, 2012 by Vaegaknight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forsbacka Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 That's not the point. You don't have to have meters. Any good group of raiders should know who is doing well and who is not up to snuff. My idea is just a unique way of doing things with some TOR flavor. It would make both sides of this argument happy. There is no way to know how other peoples dps is, hell you dont know even youre own dps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
choboon Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 Dont think people are asking the meters for flashpoints or pugs. But if they ever add any challenging boss fights in this game you have to have meters in your guild to down em. Wrong, you dont have to have anything. What you HAVE to have is time. But of course people do not want to invest time. And if a boss absolutely totally requires tools, then, imho, it is just plain bad design. Leave the dps meters etc out for another year, at that point i guess most hardcore pro players will have moved on and the whole thing will quietly settle down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GalacticKegger Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 (edited) There is no way to know how other peoples dps is, hell you dont know even youre own dps.Whether a boss drops in 3:45 or 3:25 ... who cares? Edited January 7, 2012 by GalacticKegger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vaegaknight Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 There is no way to know how other peoples dps is, hell you dont know even youre own dps. ... And? DPS is not nearly as important as total damage. What is your point? Do you even have one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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