Do you support an in game version of Recount. Please give reasons for your answer.

[Antifaith]

I'm ok with it as a personal tool only. No one else needs access to it and I don't need to see it spammed repeatedly.

 

I'd be happy with this . I was never interesting in broadcasting it. Everyone in my raid would have it anyway and its just as easy to discuss on axon/vent/mumble as it is to broadcast.

[Hixt]

As far as my opinion on it being an option, I've touched this a few times in other peoples responses.. but once it becomes an option.. it becomes more of a must have.. my reasoning behind this is...if it increases player performance by 20% on average... the difficulty of raids will be tuned to be 20% more difficult, otherwise obviously they don't want everyone blowing through content instantly.. (or maybe they will...) and then the people that would preferred not to have the meters in the first place will be worse off (even if they were in an isolated group) than they were to begin with.

 

Multiple difficulties, problem solved. Unless, again, you think everyone should be able to clear the hardest difficulties without doing whatever they can to perform at the highest levels

 

 

And I'm still waiting for ANYONE opposed to recount to present a sensible argument not based in fear and not based on arbitrary self imposed rules.

[ForceCowboy]

I think these parsers need to stay in WoW. If you lose a fight, then you need to sit down and share what specs you are using, talk about attack rotations, work out a better strategy... whatever. Talk it through and try to figure out what you're doing wrong and how to do it better.

 

But what we don't need is another game where "Oh the damage parser says you aren't worth a hooha in this raid" *kick*. Basically it becomes a cop out for weak raid leaders.

 

Basic UI mods: Yes.

 

Data mining addons: No

[Jest]

People that dont know how recount works supports that idea. The "Damage Done" page is only one section of recount. It is not recounts fault that some players are too lazy to read the rest of the information. Those players arent doing anything important anyways most times. Im in this for the raid leaders that have to deal with these lazy morons that then turn around in complete ignorance of their own failure and blame it on others and/or just flat out lie about it. If people know there are no consequences, they will almost always choose the path of least resistance. Recount lets the leader more easily correct that path to something more productive.

 

Honestly, I don't feel for those Raid Leaders at all because that means they chose poorly when they comprised their Raids.

 

Most successful Raids are comprised entirely or nearly entirely of Guild Members. People should spend more time vetting Guild Members and choose the cream of the crop for their Raid Composition.

 

As for PUGs.. well there's a number of inherent difficulties that come with that, and Recount will not solve most of them.

[Antifaith]

Me thinks Remidi and I are the same person in different parts of the world. Spooky.

[Remidi]

Multiple difficulties, problem solved. Unless, again, you think everyone should be able to clear the hardest difficulties without doing whatever they can to perform at the highest levels

 

 

And I'm still waiting for ANYONE opposed to recount to present a sensible argument not based in fear and not based on arbitrary self imposed rules.

 

Won't happen. Skada > Recount lol I had to

[Bovronius]

Seriously are you trolling me? SERIOUSLY? It takes one second to look through a meter. See here is the problem. You really do not know what you are talking about as you have never needed to do this. People dislike what they do not understand.

 

Ahah... yes.. I've never needed to do this..

 

I've never had to pour through the pies, and break down damage by mob to person to find out what instantly gibbed a tank, or who broke CC, or see what time stamp caused the first damage to the boss aggroing it before we were ready for the pull.. Nope never. NEVER EVER. I've never sorted it out by damage type to see that, whoa, that flame tongue is accounting for way more damage than I ever thought it would..

 

The thing is sir.. I've sorted through it too much. Why? Because really, to do the best I could do (which it is important to me that I, and other people do do that) had to.

 

And like I've repeated multiple times... the gains you get in efficiency, are paid back in raid difficulty and numbers.

 

I'd much rather see fights boil down to execution, and player competence, than number crunching.

[Colobulous]

Back in the day when MMORPGs weren't dumbed down, you could use your common sense to determine whether a player was good or not. And even if they weren't - it was a game. It was supposed to be fun to hang around with some people, chat and kill stuff meanwhile. If you died you died and had a good time.

 

No, actually, I didn't, because somebody didn't have common sense, and they caused us to keep dying, and we had to go through pain-staking processes to get things done, and that really took away from the fun.

 

 

A game...with numbers. Damn so wrong to use them for what they mean!

 

So what? They aren't perfect? They don't admit it? So what?

 

Try not competent, but they think they're perfect, and that causes a good share of problems.

 

If you want a dumbed down game where social in-game life doesn't matter anymore at all, go back to WoW please. I prefer to talkto people instead of letting EXCEL speak for me.

 

I can talk to a person all day, but why should they listen to me without numbers?

 

Elitism at its worst.

 

You, Sir, are the best example of why Recount has to stay out of this game.

 

Hmm...I think we have you behaving like an elitist.

 

Go figure.

[Remidi]

I think these parsers need to stay in WoW. If you lose a fight, then you need to sit down and share what specs you are using, talk about attack rotations, work out a better strategy... whatever. Talk it through and try to figure out what you're doing wrong and how to do it better.

 

But what we don't need is another game where "Oh the damage parser says you aren't worth a hooha in this raid" *kick*. Basically it becomes a cop out for weak raid leaders.

 

Basic UI mods: Yes.

 

Data mining addons: No

 

......................................................................

/facepalm

 

Having the meter makes what you just said a billion times faster and easier to access.

[Antifaith]

Honestly, I don't feel for those Raid Leaders at all because that means they chose poorly when they comprised their Raids.

 

Most successful Raids are comprised entirely or nearly entirely of Guild Members. People should spend more time vetting Guild Members and choose the cream of the crop for their Raid Composition.

 

As for PUGs.. well there's a number of inherent difficulties that come with that, and Recount will not solve most of them.

 

A part of that vetting process would be ..oh.. i dunno...seeing how they do in a raid environment, seeing if they complete their duties while sustaining a decent amount of damage yeah? Be nice if there was an addon to help you get all that info easily and on the spot.

[Remidi]

Ahah... yes.. I've never needed to do this..

 

I've never had to pour through the pies, and break down damage by mob to person to find out what instantly gibbed a tank, or who broke CC, or see what time stamp caused the first damage to the boss aggroing it before we were ready for the pull.. Nope never. NEVER EVER. I've never sorted it out by damage type to see that, whoa, that flame tongue is accounting for way more damage than I ever thought it would..

 

The thing is sir.. I've sorted through it too much. Why? Because really, to do the best I could do (which it is important to me that I, and other people do do that) had to.

 

And like I've repeated multiple times... the gains you get in efficiency, are paid back in raid difficulty and numbers.

 

I'd much rather see fights boil down to execution, and player competence, than number crunching.

 

Let me guess you did it on your second PC. Did you just get a external 14.4kbps modem as well? That was awesome when that came out. Been there bro.

 

You have to look through meters to see who broke CC? Learn how to addon. When was the last time CC was used in a WoW raid?

Edited December 14, 2011 by Remidi

[Jest]

Because you only ever need one person on interupt right?

Come on , you're not even making this interesting.

 

No auto attacks. People will learn very quickly what an interrupt for each class looks like.

 

Beyond that though, I honestly feel like if you can't trust your Raid Members to be up front about this kind of stuff, then you've chosen your Raid poorly. This is, of course, discussing Raid groups that are Guild Runs.

 

PUGs are a situation where you get what you pay for, so-to-speak. You never know what you're going to get with a PUG and Recount won't remedy all the problems that can arise.

[ForceCowboy]

......................................................................

/facepalm

 

Having the meter makes what you just said a billion times faster and easier to access.

 

No sir. It reduces the game down to a calculator instead of an MMO. Lets discard the calculators and work on personal skills.

[Zocat]

I honestly enjoy sitting on both sides of the fence, usually I'm wrapped up with a hardcore raiding guild, but then I have my secret alts, that I will just pug with.. Meet new people and enjoy some random hijinx and banter.

 

As far as my opinion on it being an option, I've touched this a few times in other peoples responses.. but once it becomes an option.. it becomes more of a must have.. my reasoning behind this is...if it increases player performance by 20% on average... the difficulty of raids will be tuned to be 20% more difficult, otherwise obviously they don't want everyone blowing through content instantly.. (or maybe they will...) and then the people that would preferred not to have the meters in the first place will be worse off (even if they were in an isolated group) than they were to begin with.

 

Despite the fact that Im on the side that would rather not see them.. If they were there, I'd usem.. (Well, I'm going to be tanking so not as much for personal use..) but I think you know what I mean..

 

Yeah, I know what you mean.

But adressing the 20% more difficulty thing. You mentioned earlier that there's always the option to parse the combatlog. So the raidleader (or someone else) in any guild will probably have some option to parse it instantly (depending if it can be flushed) or will relog every try to force it to be written. So the information which will be used to perform 20% better will always be available. So I dont really can agree with your point that having it ingame will make raid encounters 20% harder. It's just faster to access that information (and we're talking about 1-2mins max here, so something every raid will wait for).

 

But thank you for the nice & civil talk I'm going to bed now!

[PsyloSatan]

Honestly, I don't feel for those Raid Leaders at all because that means they chose poorly when they comprised their Raids.

 

Most successful Raids are comprised entirely or nearly entirely of Guild Members. People should spend more time vetting Guild Members and choose the cream of the crop for their Raid Composition.

 

As for PUGs.. well there's a number of inherent difficulties that come with that, and Recount will not solve most of them.

 

Cuz raid leaders have an inbuilt fail warning the activates when they ook at a player right?

 

Cuz wearing a guilds tag by your name magically imbues you with all the skill of the best players right? Being in a guilad automatically makes you pro.

 

Lead something. Then come at me bro.

[PsyloSatan]

No sir. It reduces the game down to a calculator instead of an MMO. Lets discard the calculators and work on personal skills.

 

calculator>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>long division

[Colobulous]

However, the things I also noticed over the years, is that immersion in the game get's highly dulled, when your imagery goes from watching a giant arse dragon level half your raid, or for a boss to leap into the air to signify when you should run for cover, to...When this bar gets to 0 and I hear a dingy I run, and to glaring at bars as you work through your rotation.

 

You're talking about DBM, DBM and Recount are not the same thing. You want to talk about DBM? Go find another thread.

 

As far as them not modifying peoples gameplay... I would disagree with the utmost..

 

That's not what I said. I said it didn't cause them to behave worse than they would have.

 

That vying for the top spot makes things as mundane as saving enough energy to interrupt to clicking on certain items in the raid room unreliable for a good number of people.

 

Without the meters, they weren't looking around to interrupt or click items either.

 

Also, take into consideration... if these tools increase peoples ability to play by X amount, the raids will have to be tuned to that.

 

Tuning raid difficulty to player performance is always tough question, but I do not think it's going to be less of a problem with fewer indicators available to players.

 

I think it'll create a worse discrepancy, given that the most elite will spend more effort on it, not less. They'll know where they stand, and what to do, and everybody else will be far behind.

 

 

In the long run the people we are going to want to improve (besides ourselves) is our guild mates... and I don't know about you, but I'm observational enough to tell after a little bit who grouping goes easier with, and who things dont quite flow with.

 

Well, I'm not, and I don't want to ruin my immersion in the game trying to pay attention to what everybody else in my group is doing.

 

That's what always bothers me about the immersion people, you seem to want me to PAY LESS ATTENTION to what I consider the interesting part of the encounter and more to oversight of the group.

[Remidi]

calculator>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>long division

 

His argument makes my brain hurt.

[FerrusPA]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong but weren't raids in the "good old days" without meters mostly just tank'n'spank fights anyway? And you're telling me it takes more skill to do those than modern-day raids?

[Antifaith]

I think these parsers need to stay in WoW. If you lose a fight, then you need to sit down and share what specs you are using, talk about attack rotations, work out a better strategy... whatever. Talk it through and try to figure out what you're doing wrong and how to do it better.

 

But what we don't need is another game where "Oh the damage parser says you aren't worth a hooha in this raid" *kick*. Basically it becomes a cop out for weak raid leaders.

 

Basic UI mods: Yes.

 

Data mining addons: No

 

Strawman attack that is. You're basicly setting up a strawman of a raid leader and knocking him down by making out that anyone that uses recount/skada as a diagnostic tool is going to say "Oh the damage parser says you aren't worth a hooha in this raid"

 

I mean it's pretty thin. Why cant a raid leader that notices the lack of damage take the first option? I certainly would and im a raid leader thats used recount and/or skada since day dot.

[Remidi]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong but weren't raids in the "good old days" without meters mostly just tank'n'spank fights anyway? And you're telling me it takes more skill to do those than modern-day raids?

 

Healers spammed...and spammed. That's what pre wow raiding was. You may not like WoW but it has had the most dynamic raids out of the genre.

[Lord_Itharius]

No. I want a combat log with a mod API that allows the COMMUNITY to make damage meter mods.

[Marcato]

I don't because I'd rather see it available as an addon. That way BioWare doesn't have to be put in the position of alienating their ultra vocal casual players.

 

The people, like me, who want it can use it and those that don't won't even have to deal with it, and it won't be BioWare's baby. They'll continue to direct their inane hatred at the tool.

[Jest]

A part of that vetting process would be ..oh.. i dunno...seeing how they do in a raid environment, seeing if they complete their duties while sustaining a decent amount of damage yeah? Be nice if there was an addon to help you get all that info easily and on the spot.

 

Actually I'd run with them in High Level Dungeons/Flashpoints first. See how they play their role there.

 

Or you could run then in an Ops/Raid and simply pay attention to their performance. Seems like that would be the duty of a Raid Leader right? Not just issuing commands and repeating fight mechanics.

[ForceCowboy]

Meh, all this arguing is moot anyways. They aren't allowed, and supposedly they aren't going to be allowed.

 

If they do make it part of the game, then I'll just hop, jump and skip back over to EVE. If I'm going to use a spreadsheet and calculator all day, then it's gonna for more than a pair of ridiculously ugly shoulder pads.

 

I want to play SWTOR, not some Star Wars spreadsheet.