So what killed PvP?

[LancelotOC]

Warzones are great for FPS games and even those are designed to sell a copy, give everyone a high adrenal experiance for a while and die so that the next title can be released and sold for new money. They get old and this is why you need Open world PVP because MMO pvpers play for the massive and epic battles more than they play for the balanced pvp.

 

Your engine can't handle more than 16? You are doomed unless you startt churning out endless new warzones to keep it fresh. Even then it will die much faster than simple large scale open PVP. People just know the FPS games make small balanced pvp better. This warzone only, subpar to FPS pvp, in an MMO setting was overly ambitious to say the least.

[SinnedWill]

30 people at fleet , ques of 8 vs 5 after an hour wait...(I Don't remember it being that way)

 

I wonder if there is something in the difference in player base and gamesmanship that people actually would have continued to play?

 

Was it the gimmicks, kill trades, hacks, FOTM, and abusing games advantages/imbalances...that caused many of the casuals to unsub or stop PvP'ing?

 

I wonder why people stopped playing....the graphics are great, story-lines are great, the individual classes are each unique and fun.....but for the life of me I can't figure out what "IN THE GAME" caused people to unsub and not play PvP?

 

The GAME is great...not sure what could have saved it from being in the state that it is in.

 

 

any thoughts?

 

 

PS: better mod?

 

I love the game, too (and I'm pretty much pure pvp). I have a lv. 50 Sorc (madness), lv. 50 Marauder (carnage), lv. 50 Assassin (tankassin), lv. 21 Sniper (marksman mostly), lv. 19 powertech (all over the place until I can either go pyro or AP effectively). On all my characters, I only level via pvp (then, when I've outlevelled each planet, I'll go through the storyline while only getting 5xp per mob/quest). The pvp level grind is slow, but worth it, IMO - since it affords me far more time to learn how to best optimize my tactics and rotations for pvp.

Hackers were prevalent a while ago, but they've decreased significantly on my server (I assume the ones we've reported have gotten banned - never seen them again).

The only significant thing I've noticed that happens to be discouraging in PvP right now is how certain classes/specs perform blatantly more efficiently (usually a result of expertise's effect) than I feel they should (all of the ones I have concerns with happen to be classes that I play - and due to my sniper and p-tech not being lv. 50, so I can't really give an unbiased opinion on their performance with gear until I get them there, though I can honestly say that snipers scale a bit OP'd very early on - my sorcerer, at full WH gear, doesn't get significant damage-scaling from expertise compared to my tankassin/carny mara toons).

In my opinion 3 classes/specs are causing issues:

Tankassin - really needs some attention due to performing far too well as dps, survivability and tank-specific functions - it's pretty obvious that when I'm grouped with a fellow tankassin, that we are frustrating everyone else due to chain taunts, utility, and the fact that 2v3+, we still dominate - requires far too many players on an enemy team to shut us down - resulting in easy victories for our team.

Marauder - mine is Carnage, so even with all defensives OFF CD, it still dies quickly and happens to easily get countered by any class (with commandos/mercs being the only exception). I for one have no issue countering them (in any spec) as any class I play, though I suppose they can go with a healing received debuff while Undying Rage and Force Camo are active.

Powertech - (pyros mind you) - though I haven't gotten mine to 50 to experience first-hand playstyle, I encounter many of them on my other 50's and yes they're rough. I know full well how the class plays, and can't find any effective counter (for long enough amounts of time) to keep them from having their way with any class other than tankassin - yes, overheating is an issue for them, but they commonly win 1v2's with ease before overheating. I know madness sorc. should be a good counter for them, but it really isn't due to the significant burst they can bring once they close the gap. My marauder can keep from getting hit by their railshots (obfuscate + saber ward), but most pyro-ptechs don't need rail to drop a marauder quickly (flameburst, incindiery, DoT/slow from cylinder, and thermal detonator is usually enough for them, while kiting and tossing in CC to keep maras from dishing out their big hurt - perhaps annihilation specs fair better, but I like the fun of my carnae spec without feeling guilty like how I do on my tankassin). I find snipers can effectively counter pyro p-techs in sub-50 brackets - perhaps this will apply at lv. 50 as well, though good pyros can effectively counter my sniper with DoT's, long-ranged DPS and LoS (and if they happen to get in your face, it's usually game over quickly for my sniper unless I have a "green-man" coverpoint I can roll to for an instant gap-widener of an extra 8m or so. As level 19 powertech, I don't notice a weakness to any class, and despite not being able to use the main rotation PPA provides, its survivability is crazy and can still dish out nasty damage - heat is the biggest issue at low levels, however.

 

Many of the issues I feel are actually a result of the current expertise system (fixing it will help with how all 3 are performing), though I think tankassin skill tree will need a change even if they do change expertise to benefit abilities with high base damage less significantly than with the current system's mechanics provide them over moderate/weaker base damage abilities.

 

Healing, believe it or not is still very powerful - though the new expertise mechanics certainly benefit Sorc/Sage and Merc/Commando healers more significantly than Ops/Scounds. Healing is bad, however (at level 50), until the healer (and all their teammates) have obtained the passive companion bonus to healing received (must complete chapter 2 and have enough affection to complete all of their conversations/quests to obtain this) - gearing up further helps healers (again, expertise helps Sorc/Sage and Merc/Commando heal values more significantly than ops/scounds - though ops/scound healers still aren't bad - ever), and a healer pre 1.2 will need to adapt to the changes (and possibly change their choices on stats to stack). Despite all the crying healers have done since 1.2, many of them didn't have the passive healing received buff from companions (nor their teammates - it's ~5% bonus I think), and many didn't want to bother trying to adapt to the changes (let alone alter stats they stack). The healers that remain are doing very well, however.

[VoidJustice]

Guess WoW is grindy too because is the exact same system, all of you out here are complaining because bw is using the same model if it aint broke dont fix it.

 

No, Wow is broken the wow model was great for a few years, now were all bored of it, and no-one that has left Wow cause they got bored wants to play an inferior version of what they left cause it bored them...

 

WOW FAN-ADICTS KEEP MAKING COMPANIES DESIGN WOW KNOCKOFFS THAT THE SAME FAN-ADICTS DON'T SUPPORT 7 MONTHS AFTER THE NEW GAME OPENS CAUSE THEY JUST GO BACK TO PLAYING.... YOU GUESSED IT!!!!

 

The rest of us... just want a new game to play but we can't have one cause every games system inevitably must be exactly like wow or the FAN-ADICTS come out in droves explaining how no game can be worth a subscription unless it's JUST LIKE WOW... vicious circle...

 

There is no more goodwill in the gaming community for cheap wow knockoffs. Let alone ones that don't even have a semblance of exciting endgame pvp... 4 warzones... and for most of us it was really only 3 for most of the time we played...

Edited May 21, 2012 by VoidJustice

[Lady_Alyria]

30 people at fleet , ques of 8 vs 5 after an hour wait...(I Don't remember it being that way)

 

I wonder if there is something in the difference in player base and gamesmanship that people actually would have continued to play?

 

Was it the gimmicks, kill trades, hacks, FOTM, and abusing games advantages/imbalances...that caused many of the casuals to unsub or stop PvP'ing?

 

I wonder why people stopped playing....the graphics are great, story-lines are great, the individual classes are each unique and fun.....but for the life of me I can't figure out what "IN THE GAME" caused people to unsub and not play PvP?

 

The GAME is great...not sure what could have saved it from being in the state that it is in.

 

 

any thoughts?

 

 

PS: better mod?

 

Diablo 3

[VoidJustice]

Diablo 3

 

I got suckered into buying that junk... omg don't get me started...

seriously, clicking on mobs in a 2d world... ok... I really don't get it.

[Mulisha]

PVP: Anyone ever played DAOC (Dark Age of Camelot)? The PvP in DAOC was by far, in my opinion, better than any I have ever played. It put realm vs realm open world combat. There were specific goals to be achieved, IE keep takes, tower takes, relics, etc. If this game would take 5 or 6 chapters from them and RECREATE PvP they could easily turn this thing around. I played DAOC for probably close to 6 years (maybe little more or a little less) and the PvP is what kept me coming back. Their ranking system gave you recognition for your work and PvP. It wasnt the gear that made you better, PvP made you better. Granted, being a higher rank gave you advantages over some lower ranks folks, but people that knew what they were doing could still compete.

 

There has to be a way for BW to turn this thing around. They have a good game with a more than solid foundation, but they as have many others, seemed to have failed at PvP. For so many gamers, PvP is what it is all about.

 

Just my two cents.

[Lymain]

Lack of a goal/epeen/whatever, you name it.

The warzones get boring quite fast at level 50, the only reason to do them is to get better gear, so you can be better at them. But when you get wh stuff, there is just no point.

No sieges, no kewl stuff, no "this battle was so epic, and I was there" feeling, you don't feel that you win anything for your faction or your guild, you don't even feel like you should care about winning.

 

Most of my friends have stopped playing for that reason. Ilum may have been terribly flawed (I often complained about how much it sucked), but we didn't really have problems with kill trading on my server, and it was actually a lot of fun at times. I have more fun, lasting memories from Ilum than I do from warzones, despite spending much, much, much more time in warzones.

 

Meanwhile, in warzones, I get fed up guarding some dumb turret or watching some dumb door. The objectives are just cheezy and boring.

[Lady_Alyria]

I got suckered into buying that junk... omg don't get me started...

seriously, clicking on mobs in a 2d world... ok... I really don't get it.

 

It's new and it has the title of one of the best selling games of all time. I was bound to be popular.

[Jackfus]

Yeah what a wonderful idea, let's bust BW's *** even though the game is just barely over 6 months old. I will say a lot of imps left to go to D3 but considering how "great" their launch went, it shouldnt be long before ppl are back.

Another thing, ppl say ilum is dead, Why? This is confusing to me simply because i came from SWG and we pvp'd just to pvp. It was fun and gave us a chance to test ourselves so why do ppl need a motivation to got to ilum? Tatooine also has open pvp areas but everyone ignores those as well.

 

(P.S. Good work shadowofvey pvp explanation was dead on.)

[tuxiewuxie]

not every player was used to the wow style pvp so reducing endgame pvp to just 4 unranked unlimited minigames was gonna kill pvp. those players that wanted more than carebear pvp quit long ago and the players remaining just do warzones for their full war 14/14 hero set then go awol until rated wz arrive.

[Darth_Gao_Gao]

what killed pvp was the fact that it's pointless, and that ranked warzones are nowhere in sight. this led to a decrease in population, with the old players who returned for ranked leaving, again, and newer players becoming discouraged and leaving for their first time (diablo 3 added to this dramatically as well, along with the guildwars 2 weekend beta). those that remained were left with a ghost town, unless you are on the fatman. each day, another person gets fed up with hour long queues, and leaves for good, making the queue that much longer.

 

bioware is an idiotic company, basically. they are like a doctor that has never heard of a band aid. completely incompetent, to the point where it's almost funny (if you forget that we all bought and subscribed to this game).

 

so yeah, if you want to pvp, reroll on the fatman while there is still time. even the fatman is growing thin, which tells us population alone won't save this game. it's flawed at the very core.

[Pekish]

honestly i dont get how a person can play D3 and an MMORPG and considering them one or the other... i guess is a time issue obviously

 

but if you play an MMORPG you are looking for something different then D3 and his online part

 

Anyway we have a problem here people that doesn't like the genre buy it anyway because there is "nothing else" they force the game to open new server because even if they dont like they buy it and they whine and cry for the queue they tend to go to server overpopulated instead of spread around and then obviously since they didnt like the game in first place anyway they leave at the first sign of something new

 

they are free to do what they want but understand that there is a problem for who like the game and is that the server are too many because they just buy randomly and leave

Edited May 22, 2012 by Pekish

[criminalheretic]

I could come up with a new way to tell you that you're wrong but I can see that it would be a waste of my time.

 

 

 

http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n40/rfisher3/SWToR/expertise.jpg

 

I don't know where you are coming up with your numbers, because they're not possible in SW:ToR. However, here are some real numbers, for some real math. If I were to clone myself, then attack myself for 1000 damage I would:

 

1) Do 1000 * 1.2394 = 1239.4 damage

2) Then receive 1239.4 - (1239.4 * 0.1931) = 1000.07186 damage.

 

Want to keep going?

 

People don't really get the chain of events, they just see that 23% is higher than 19%. I promise I am not trying to condescend to anyone with the explanation below.

 

Damage Boost = unboosted damage + 23%

Damage reduction = BOOSTED damage - 19%

 

19% of a bigger number = 23% of a smaller number. Roughly.

 

I would like to see a bit longer TTK though, without bufffing healers back into godmode. Maybe just a flat +5-10k health to everyone in the WZ

Edited May 22, 2012 by criminalheretic

[VLAHD]

I never played wow so i have no idea what the pvp was like there...Played 13 years of EQ1.

 

My guild, and myself still pvp but its not easy. My entire guild will be leaving when our subs run out if PVP doesnt change quickly.

 

There are several reasons why we are finished...and its not all pvp.

 

1. We are finished with PVE content...when this happens, all thats left is PVP to pass the time.

2. The same 4 WZs get old. We play alot and there is only so many times you can stomache the same old same old.

3. All the hacking/exploiters did in about half my guild at the start. Its better now, but i suspect thats only because the hackers/exploiters got bored and left, not because BW did anything to fix the problem.

4. Low pop numbers = long ques only to get steamrolled by the premade because nobody else is queing.

5. Grinding out 6 matches instead of 3 wins is a bandaid fix to placate the eazymode players, and as usual does nothing to address the real problem....players are simply leaving this game because of all the issues not being addressed.

6. Pugging with underskilled, or undergeared players get old. Call me an elitest if you want, dont really care. However, i do care that i go 0/10 because of noobs...not really all that fun.

7. Honostly, it takes no skill to play this game, a trained monkey can do it. Even the worst casual player will get to 50 in under a month and then start to pvp because thats all thats left. See #6.

 

What would i like to see?

 

1. More open world and WZ pvp.

2. A speperate pvp world only accecible if you have a war hero or better toon. When you achieve a certain PvP rank, you are given the option of moving servers. Make it a rediculas number that will help ensure the 12k hps flavor of the month is not queing with you.

3. increase the difficulty of the game, and make the pve content require more using the same 3 skills.

4. bring in valor rank based ques

5. no premades in normal ques...premades only allowed in raided wzs

6. Finish raided wzs.

[ShadowOfVey]

On one upside, people that tried D3 might be back soon.

 

It's a serious disappointment. A level cap you reach very quickly (vs the feeling that you were still gaining in power in D2 and even D1, since you had to seriously go out of your way to hit the cap in those). No reason to keep rolling new versions of the same classes to try out new builds etc.

 

There are already a lot of people max level in D3. It isn't just the super hardcores. Then they...well I guess they can do it with the other classes, but this is not a game like D2 that people will enjoy for years. Many may not even enjoy it 1 month.