The absolute real nubbin of the problem

[gurugeorge]

What SWTOR is

 

Just came across the above post, and I have to say I think it nails it to some extent. I myself was saying similar things on these forums a couple of months ago, in the game's defence, and I stand by it. It's a game for people who love story and immersion, and seeing how other people decide in conversations (and also the combat's good fun, both solo and grouped).

 

However, what's different for me now is that I'm beginning to realize there aren't as many people out there who want this as there are people who want EITHER this PLUS a whole lot of high quality MMO stuff that SWTOR doesn't have, or doesn't have to a sufficiently high standard to compete; OR who just want a totally different type of MMO (sandbox).

 

I think there are enough people who like this "new" type of story-driven MMO (something that probably only BW can do actually, their own peculiar niche) to keep the game going for a decent amount of time (and maybe for a long time if BW heed the complaints), but I doubt there's going to be much more than the basic 500,000 of them. Which is cool, for those who'll be still playing. But probably not cool for EA - which means "skeleton crew", which means the game will pretty much stay as it is now forever.

 

For me personally, I do "get" this game, and sometimes I am heavily immersed, and absolutely love the new dimension of seeing how other people choose in conversations, and all that.

 

BUT PRECISELY FOR THAT REASON, precisely BECAUSE the game is so damn immersive while you're in the story, the contrast when you're out of the story, and looking for some good grouping action, some meaningful PvP, or even some good solo or grouped exploring, is highlighted. The rest of the game doesn't match up to the storyline part of the game in terms of immersion - not nearly well enough, not nohow.

 

It's this psychological contrast that I think is at the root of a lot of peoples' dissatisfaction with the game.

 

IOW, in a way BW have shot themselves in the foot. They've made the story aspect of the game SO immersive, that the lack of immersion in the rest of the game, the basically linear, cardboardey nature of everything that's NOT story in the game, the lack of virtual worldiness, stands out like a sore abscess.

 

Which means, this is a game I can only take in small doses. After a while, it just gets too claustrophobic, and doesn't feel like a virtual world at all. And then after a while I get a hankering for it again, come back and enjoy it intensely for a bit, then hate it again, enjoy it, hate it, enjoy it, hate it ...

[Dezzi]

That's definitely what the game is, but that's not the game players want. Not yet, anyway. This is a lesson BioWare is leaning (I hope) and will at least help steer them in a direction most gamers are comfortable with.

 

That isn't to say that SWTOR is a bad game. It's just not the right game.

[OmegaMayhem]

That isn't to say that SWTOR is a bad game. It's just not the right game for some

 

Fixed.

[Blistrich]

There is a difference between "This game isn't for me", and "I can't enjoy this game because it's broken".

 

I read the post you linked. It's basically a big pat on the back for fanboys who are willing to forgive BW and SWTOR for being terribly unpolished and unresponsive by attempting to frame the game as only appearing to be terrible because those who don't like it simply don't understand it... which is a big, stinking load of crap.

 

SWTOR is a poorly adapted version of Warcraft set in space with cut-scenes. You can talk it up all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that it's rife with bugs, the environments are terrible (painted mountains and no weather), the PvP/PvE endgame is horribly structured, and the game is emptying out for all those reasons.

 

If the argument is "SWTOR is an MMO geared for people who like to play alone", well, that's fail right there.

[CosmicKat]

If there are 500,000 subscribers there is $7,500,000 in monthly revenue. That is a lot more money than any gaming company in the history of gaming has ever spent on maintaining an existing game.

 

Wake up people. Star Wars is not an A+ franchise anymore. It hasn't been for decades. The days of expecting anything with the Star Wars name on it to make oodles and oodles of money are long gone. This game does not have to make a billion dollars to be a success. It just has to re-coup its investment and make enough to keep the lights on. It has likely already exceeded development costs in revenue and if your think BW/EA or any other company spends millions to maintain and update released MMO's, you are dreaming.

[Dezzi]

Fixed.

 

Cute. I can play that game too. I'll amend the following to the end of my statement:

"... for some number of 1.1 million people."

Better?

[Dezzi]

There is a difference between "This game isn't for me", and "I can't enjoy this game because it's broken".

 

I read the post you linked. It's basically a big pat on the back for fanboys who are willing to forgive BW and SWTOR for being terribly unpolished and unresponsive by attempting to frame the game as only appearing to be terrible because those who don't like it simply don't understand it... which is a big, stinking load of crap.

 

SWTOR is a poorly adapted version of Warcraft set in space with cut-scenes. You can talk it up all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that it's rife with bugs, the environments are terrible (painted mountains and no weather), the PvP/PvE endgame is horribly structured, and the game is emptying out for all those reasons.

 

If the argument is "SWTOR is an MMO geared for people who like to play alone", well, that's fail right there.

 

You nailed it. That's basically the theme or mentality behind the argument. Not very strong, is it?

[InfiniteEarths]

If there are 500,000 subscribers there is $7,500,000 in monthly revenue. That is a lot more money than any gaming company in the history of gaming has ever spent on maintaining an existing game.

 

Wake up people. Star Wars is not an A+ franchise anymore. It hasn't been for decades. The days of expecting anything with the Star Wars name on it to make oodles and oodles of money are long gone. This game does not have to make a billion dollars to be a success. It just has to re-coup its investment and make enough to keep the lights on. It has likely already exceeded development costs in revenue and if your think BW/EA or any other company spends millions to maintain and update released MMO's, you are dreaming.

 

I think there's a lot of truth to what you are saying. I saw this MMO going this way when EA bought BioWare. Where the OP correlates with what you are implying is that he thinks the game is going to trundle along as what it is and not much more. People who are expecting huge swathes of new features as the game evolves are going to be disappointed because BioWare will not have enough revenue to support such lofty development goals.

 

They basically shot themselves in the foot by releasing early. Can they convince EA to keep development budgets high when the subscriber numbers are dropping? Probably not. This means that TOR will just continue along as what it is, an unfinished MMO missing a swathe of features and innovating on nearly no level.

 

Think about the hype that was put into companion characters and space combat for marketing the game and look at how those features aren't really bringing any sort of longevity to the game because they're just not that great.

[Azumio]

I'm all about story and immersion.

 

I've never felt immersed within this games Universe.

 

Actually, one of my bigger complaints is the disconnect between Player, Character and World.

 

The stories are stretch way to thin across boring and lifeless planets that they failed to make feel alive. The planets basically become annoying places you go through and you'll never visit again.

 

The loading screens, the cardboard NPCs, the aforementioned lifeless planets, etc.

 

There's nothing really immerisive about this game to me. So I can't say I agree.

 

This game is different. It's a single-player game adapted to be a MMORPG, but never quite rids itself of the single-player game it is at it's core, and the MMORPG aspects feel tacted on. So it's a clash of two-types of games that simply don't work. Add-in the fact that the MMORPG aspects are reminiscent of World of Warcraft, and you got issues.

 

This game would have been much better had they went full-steam ahead on a Singe-Player MMORPG. Flesh out your companions more, add choices rather than the illusion of choices, but keep the 8 different stories (Basically, they'd be like Origins).

[Celebrus]

Just gonna be honest, it's getting pretty old to be told that I need to avoid hitting level cap, avoid trying to group with other players, and if possible, re-roll on another server and give up everything I've done up until this point if I want to be able to enjoy the game.

 

The picture painted by the OP is basically that the storyline and leveling experience is just so out of this world awesome that everything else in the game just pales in comparison, even though it's actually awesome and without the story would be perfect.

 

While I do agree that the story was fun, leveling can be enjoyable, and it's probably the highlight of this game, it doesn't change the fact that everything else is simply just below par and it has nothing to do with the story simply putting it to shame.

Edited May 18, 2012 by Celebrus

[Dezzi]

Hey look, another "Play the game like me, view the game like me, and treat the game like me if you want to enjoy it" thread.

 

Just gonna be honest, it's getting pretty old to be told that I need to avoid hitting level cap, avoid trying to group with other players, and if possible, re-roll on another server and give up everything I've done up until this point.

 

The picture painted by the OP is basically that the storyline and leveling experience is just so out of this world awesome that everything else in the game just pales in comparison, even though it's actually awesome and without the story would be perfect.

 

While I do agree that the story was fun, leveling can be enjoyable, and it's probably the highlight of this game, it doesn't change the fact that everything else is simply just below par and it has nothing to do with the story simply putting it to shame as the OP suggests.

 

Agreed. It does seem like they're telling you to not play this MMO like an MMO, and that when you ignore all the things wrong with it, it's a much better experience. Guess you could say that about anything.

[gurugeorge]

The picture painted by the OP is basically that the storyline and leveling experience is just so out of this world awesome that everything else in the game just pales in comparison, even though it's actually awesome and without the story would be perfect.

 

No that's not what I'm saying, I'm saying that the contrast HIGHLIGHTS THE INADEQUACY of the rest of the game, makes it seem even worse than it is.

 

IOW, the rest of the game is indeed under par, but the amount of sound and fury the detractors are putting out about the game doesn't match the degree of under-parness it objectively has. There's more going on, and that more is that the storyline parts do indeed immerse you, so that the lack of immersion in the other parts of the game stands out all the more.

Edited May 18, 2012 by gurugeorge

[Galbatorrix]

I love the games single player action and I love that I have the option to group up at anytime. *shrugs*

 

I used to do the same thing in WOW. I would mostly quest alone unless a guild member was in the area and I'd group up for dungeons. Once the dungeon finder hit, the game basically became a dungeon crawler. The gear/EXP/Etc just wasn't as good while questing. SWTOR, on the other hand, actually offers some dungeon grade gear in Heroics that gives you the choice to either do some FPs or simply find a group or two for heroics while questing. It's honestly why I like SWTOR much more than WOW. It actually gives you a reason to do more than one activity in the game.

 

 

The game may not be for everyone. Heck, no game is. But, it's definitely for me. Everyone should just play what they like. This obviously isn't the game for some people. I mean, if you really feel that there are no redeming qualities, there is definitely better ways to spend your time. Camped out on a message board for a game you can't stand probably isn't one of those though.

[Korusus]

I get it. I'm a huge BioWare fan. I love the story aspect of the game. But I'm just not willing to pay a monthly subscription for a single-player game that's really an MMO. I've maxed out the solo class storylines of four classes, and most of a fifth. It gets old.

 

You're right, the story missions are done so well that the rest of the filler content (80% of the quests after a point) become intolerable both for their lack of creativity and for their intense, unforgiving, uncompromising linearity. Once you know that most of the heroic mission dialogue responses are of the canned response variety...the illusion fades. After you complete the 500th "go into the bunker and kill 47 NPCs standing around doing nothing" planet mission, the illusion fades.

 

The problem is this game has no staying power.

Edited May 18, 2012 by Korusus

[JediElf]

That's definitely what the game is, but that's not the game players want. Not yet, anyway.

 

Not 'all' of us....sorry.

 

I've been waiting for a game like this, for a long time. This is exactly the kind of game, that I want to play.

[Dezzi]

Not 'all' of us....sorry.

 

I've been waiting for a game like this, for a long time. This is exactly the kind of game, that I want to play.

 

Clearly not all of us. Forgot to put my disclaimer up for the diehards. Apologies.

Edited May 18, 2012 by Dezzi

[gurugeorge]

And I'll note one other curious and amusing point about this. Even (heaven forbid) it falls to 500k, that's still a lot of people who, when they're looking around for their next MMO in a few years' time, SWTOR having been their first, will be complaining about the lack of VO-ed storyline and lack of immersion

 

Remember kids, it's always the first MMO you played that others have to match up to - and never quite match up to the rosy memory you have

Edited May 19, 2012 by gurugeorge

[Valperion]

What SWTOR is

 

Just came across the above post, and I have to say I think it nails it to some extent. I myself was saying similar things on these forums a couple of months ago, in the game's defence, and I stand by it. It's a game for people who love story and immersion, and seeing how other people decide in conversations (and also the combat's good fun, both solo and grouped).

 

However, what's different for me now is that I'm beginning to realize there aren't as many people out there who want this as there are people who want EITHER this PLUS a whole lot of high quality MMO stuff that SWTOR doesn't have, or doesn't have to a sufficiently high standard to compete; OR who just want a totally different type of MMO (sandbox).

 

I think there are enough people who like this "new" type of story-driven MMO (something that probably only BW can do actually, their own peculiar niche) to keep the game going for a decent amount of time (and maybe for a long time if BW heed the complaints), but I doubt there's going to be much more than the basic 500,000 of them. Which is cool, for those who'll be still playing. But probably not cool for EA - which means "skeleton crew", which means the game will pretty much stay as it is now forever.

 

For me personally, I do "get" this game, and sometimes I am heavily immersed, and absolutely love the new dimension of seeing how other people choose in conversations, and all that.

 

BUT PRECISELY FOR THAT REASON, precisely BECAUSE the game is so damn immersive while you're in the story, the contrast when you're out of the story, and looking for some good grouping action, some meaningful PvP, or even some good solo or grouped exploring, is highlighted. The rest of the game doesn't match up to the storyline part of the game in terms of immersion - not nearly well enough, not nohow.

 

It's this psychological contrast that I think is at the root of a lot of peoples' dissatisfaction with the game.

 

IOW, in a way BW have shot themselves in the foot. They've made the story aspect of the game SO immersive, that the lack of immersion in the rest of the game, the basically linear, cardboardey nature of everything that's NOT story in the game, the lack of virtual worldiness, stands out like a sore abscess.

 

Which means, this is a game I can only take in small doses. After a while, it just gets too claustrophobic, and doesn't feel like a virtual world at all. And then after a while I get a hankering for it again, come back and enjoy it intensely for a bit, then hate it again, enjoy it, hate it, enjoy it, hate it ...

 

That is great bro.

* People are not going to spend 15 dollars a month on just story.

* By story you mean, more dailies?!

* The game caters to alts, what about the people that don't want to re-level?

* What about this whole population crisis?

You think people are going to waste money when they can't even get a simple transfer to a populated server!?

[Blackardin]

I log on, I gather up my guild, we go raid., I have fun

 

I log on, gather up my alt, go play, I have fun

 

I log on to the boards and I don't have fun....because all of you experts told me that its impossible. ;p

[gurugeorge]

That is great bro.

* People are not going to spend 15 dollars a month on just story.

 

Evidently "people", or at least some people, are.

 

The question is whether they are enough to do anything on the scale from: 1) keep the game afloat, to 2) make it hugely profitable.

 

At the moment it looks like somewhere in the middle, but edging towards the bottom end. Certainly the rest of the game, the MMO side of the game, while the grouped combat in and of itself is engaging, both PvE and PvP, it's not got the right setting - rewards are wonky, the setup isn't right, it's hard to find groups, etc., etc., etc.

 

But this is only made worse by the fact that the storyline bits are indeed immersive and engaging. It's the contrast that's so shocking. You come out of feeling like you're a character in the Old Republic, into this below-average set-up MMO context, with unimmersive, linear world design, and it's stark by contrast, stark, bleak and claustrophobic.

 

A few months ago I was more positive about the game; seeing how quickly they reacted to the ability delay problem, it seemed like BW were on their toes. But now I'm much less optimistic; I suspect the poor performance of the game (relative to what I think must have been EA's/shareholders' expectations) has meant the development team has been cut - which is why 1.2 was lacklustre, and 1.3 looks like it's only going to cause more bad publicity for the game (since the LFG tool will not be cross-server as many hope for).

Edited May 19, 2012 by gurugeorge

[Blackardin]

That is great bro.

* People are not going to spend 15 dollars a month on just story.

* By story you mean, more dailies?!

* The game caters to alts, what about the people that don't want to re-level?

* What about this whole population crisis?

You think people are going to waste money when they can't even get a simple transfer to a populated server!?

 

Just a few points here:

 

1. We all speak only for ourselves unless we have data to back up our claim.

 

2. If the cost of a pizza and a beer is so intense that you actually consider it in your debate, you should not even be playing a video game, but working a second job.

 

3. The game is there for your use. It caters to nothing. It makes available the options for you to explore. If you are unable to select and options, play that option without every asepct of it being spoon fed, that is not the game's fault.

 

4. The population crises? Chicken Little could not have said it any better. ;p Yeah, there are some issues, but seriously. Put me on a server with 100 people and I would make 50 friends. This is a cop out.

 

Honestly. I don't even know what to say here. Between the cost, the ability to play alts, the fact that some servers have low population, you are too stressed out to play a video game?

 

Sucks to be you, friend. ;p

Edited May 19, 2012 by Blackardin

[jgelling]

I agree the story is immersive, and the contrast between a good story and the "kill 15 rats" quests that have as much meaning as an episode of "Survivor" creates dissatisfaction,

 

However, any author knows you can't have non-stop action - that wears the reader out even more. In between the action and plot points you have "fun and games", where you get to know the characters and they interact with each other and the environment.

 

SWTOR HAS NO FUN AND GAMES. That's the problem. The interlude between plot points is "travel this insane distance in needlessly slow transportation that only goes 50% faster than you can run and kill a bunch of rats." No meaningful NPC interaction, little companion interrelationships, no goofy entertainment like Pazaak or swoop racing or random world elements, no unexpected fights or enemies or challenges, etc.

 

It's about the FUN AND GAMES - the under appreciated part of any good story - there are no FUN AND GAMES between major plot points, and it's sad.

Edited May 19, 2012 by jgelling

[Valperion]

Just a few points here:

 

1. We all speak only for ourselves unless we have data to back up our claim.

 

2. If the cost of a pizza and a beer is so intense that you actually consider it in your debate, you should not even be playing a video game, but working a second job.

 

3. The game is there for your use. It caters to nothing. It makes available the options for you to explore. If you are unable to select and options, play that option without every asepct of it being spoon fed, that is not the game's fault.

 

4. The population crises? Chicken Little could not have said it any better. ;p Yeah, there are some issues, but seriously. Put me on a server with 100 people and I would make 50 friends. This is a cop out.

 

Honestly. I don't even know what to say here. Between the cost, the ability to play alts, the fact that some servers have low population, you are too stressed out to play a video game?

 

Sucks to be you, friend. ;p

 

Friend, I am not even playing game.

* I could honestly careless, what happens to the game at this point.

They had their chance to make an amazing mmo, instead we got a co-op story game with mmo features slapped on at the last minute.

 

* If you careless about how you use your money, then good for you. People spend 60+ dollars for sub plans to get little to no content.

* Its just a shame to see such an opportunity to go to waste.

If there is no problem with server populations, maybe you should suggest bioware to open a couple more servers.

You gotta fit those 1.3 million subs in some way.

[gurugeorge]

Friend, I am not even playing game.

* I could honestly careless, what happens to the game at this point.

They had their chance to make an amazing mmo, instead we got a co-op story game with mmo features slapped on at the last minute.

 

* If you careless about how you use your money, then good for you. People spend 60+ dollars for sub plans to get little to no content.

* Its just a shame to see such an opportunity to go to waste.

If there is no problem with server populations, maybe you should suggest bioware to open a couple more servers.

You gotta fit those 1.3 million subs in some way.

 

This type of hyperbole is totally unnecessary. It doesn't make you look clever to exaggerate things this way and criticize other peoples' gaming decisions - quite the opposite. You don't like it, other people like it. You don't find enough value in it to pay for, others do, end of story. You haven't uncovered some great, secret conspiracy by EA/BW to bilk people out of money, all you're pointing out is a game that doesn't satisfy everyone, like it could have done.

[Geeorgedk]

I agree the story is immersive, and the contrast between a good story and the "kill 15 rats" quests that have as much meaning as an episode of "Survivor" creates dissatisfaction,

 

However, any author knows you can't have non-stop action - that wears the reader out even more. In between the action and plot points you have "fun and games", where you get to know the characters and they interact with each other and the environment.

 

SWTOR HAS NO FUN AND GAMES. That's the problem. The interlude between plot points is "travel this insane distance in needlessly slow transportation that only goes 50% faster than you can run and kill a bunch of rats." No meaningful NPC interaction, little companion interrelationships, no goofy entertainment like Pazaak or swoop racing or random world elements, no unexpected fights or enemies or challenges, etc.

 

It's about the FUN AND GAMES - the under appreciated part of any good story - there are no FUN AND GAMES between major plot points, and it's sad.

That is a good sum up of what is lacking story wise really, or immersion wise. I would love to see more companion interaction for instance.

Apart from that the world is just static and lifeless, loading times and travelling between planets is way too long and cumbersome. Fighting gets very repetitive (every group of mobs is composed of either 3/5, or 1 weak mob and a silver mob).

And yet, I do still like this game, it has so much potential. I hope they fix it.

Edited May 19, 2012 by Geeorgedk