Ohlen admits sage/sorc healing broken

[Seraphielle]

I think that Sorc/Sage doesn't have enough CC to keep themselves alive while healing. However, giving up your group heal gives you a ton of survivability and CC if you spec into Lightning. This includes the reduced CD on Force Speed, blind on shield breaking, root on KB, etc. It also gives you the force regen proc with lightning strike or w/e. I don't know how effective it is, having not tested personally, but I bet it's pretty decent, especially with the quick cast time. I know that a lot of people love having that blind when their shield pops.

 

Historically, squishy healers depend on the ability to kite and their personal CC abilities to stay alive.

 

Also historically speaking, healers depend upon their team to stay alive. If you combine these 2 aspects, sages are pretty tough to take down.

 

I think I was among the first on my server to respec into TK (Lightning) tree heals for my sage. It works far better for survivability than the AOE tree. Healing numbers are less though (if you care more about that kind of thing). It definitely helps cope with 1.2 changes, but the dependency on the team is still there.

[LiveandDieinLA]

Some classes in this game are huge force multiplies and some aren't.

 

Healers and tanks are much more powerful in groups than they are alone, so the argument that 1 dps should never kill 1 healer is kind of dumb, since, if that was the case, in a group situation that one dps cancelling out one healer becomes on dps smashing their head against a wall.

[Seraphielle]

What most people who are thrilled being able to solo kill sages/sorcs arent getting is they are not complaining about overall healing. They are complaining about survivability and they ability to do your job (as in actually use a healing spell) since they can be dropped by 1dps from between 3 to 5 gcd's

 

This.

 

To requote Arkerus:

 

"All healers must die to me for I AM DPS!!!! To defeat me, they must utilize the full power of their team!!! I am right because the devs are always right!!!"

 

(Pretty sure I got that right)

[Darth_Philar]

Some classes in this game are huge force multiplies and some aren't.

 

Healers and tanks are much more powerful in groups than they are alone, so the argument that 1 dps should never kill 1 healer is kind of dumb, since, if that was the case, in a group situation that one dps cancelling out one healer becomes on dps smashing their head against a wall.

 

What happens when an unstoppable force (DPS) hits an immovable object (healing)?

 

Some people say the unstoppable force should win, others the immovable object. Both are wrong.

 

Neither should win.

[Seraphielle]

Some classes in this game are huge force multiplies and some aren't.

 

Healers and tanks are much more powerful in groups than they are alone, so the argument that 1 dps should never kill 1 healer is kind of dumb, since, if that was the case, in a group situation that one dps cancelling out one healer becomes on dps smashing their head against a wall.

 

The multiplier bit is true. But why is it acceptable for healers to bang their heads against the wall as opposed to DPS? So its not 'dumb' for a healer to not being able to heal because they must be easily killed by a DPS unless there are good players who know how to support them?

Edited May 22, 2012 by Seraphielle

[Arkerus]

This.

 

To requote Arkerus:

 

"All healers must die to me for I AM DPS!!!! To defeat me, they must utilize the full power of their team!!! I am right because the devs are always right!!!"

 

(Pretty sure I got that right)

 

Making up quotes is fun!

 

Pretty sure Ohlen basically told healers that healing is where its supposed to be.

[SinnedWill]

Ok, healers aren't BROKEN nor gimped right now (at least not in full WH gear). And no one class of healer is better than the others, per say. It is IMPERATIVE that all healers (and their teammates get the passive healing received buff from companion convo/quest completion - which requires affection ~ 9400 and having completed chapter 2, though this may vary).

 

Ops/Scounds - while being mobile and IMO the best all-around healers (they can easily put HoT's on many teammates without going into turret-mode, they move fastest -except for sorc/sages with force speed for 2s-, and they have good survivability via defensive cooldowns - medium armor, however isn't significantly better for damage mitigation). Their activated heals are moderate-heavy (this is what they lack compared to the other healers), and this tends to cause some issues end-game (everyone in WH gear) due to expertise having more significant impact on abilities with higher base values.

 

Merc/Commando - heavily turret-mode healers - their most significant heals have activation times - (worst healers right? WRONG). They have the most potent heals of all the healers (which means they benefit most from expertise out of the trio). Their pre-cast reactive healing is a very nice counter to DoT-heavy and sustained class damage (though less effective against burst) - furthermore, if they time their heals correctly (begin casting before a target is significantly inured, yet getting primed), their heals can have the most signicant impact on survival - they can clutch heal (meaning bring a player who is nearly dead) back to full life better than every other healer - furthermore, they get brief moments of near god-mode during bubble (which also prevents interrupts) that most healers had all the time pre 1.2 - "bubbles up" usually causes a commando/merc to be able to self-sustain while face-tanking 2 marauders (true story, happens to this day).

 

Sage/Sorc - with powerful heals, proactive healing in the form of a bubble, and the ability to increase armor rating (which is effective when applied to all classes, but increasingly so for classes with more significant reduction values - same is typically true for bubble). Best thing this class brings to their group is the AoE heal (best one IMO). Their other heals aren't anything to frown at, however - they certainly have some big heals to fall back on (if they're left unchecked) if their channeled heal just isn't cutting it. Now, here's the deal with sage/sorc hybrid healers that the other classes can't usually provide (although the merc/commando hybrid that has tracer/grav round can be nice, they tend to lack a lot of healing) - the hybrid healing/middle tree brings LOTS of utility - so much so, that I would actually consider them (by far) to be more difficult to kill than a pure sage/sorc hybrid-and they really don't lose much overall healing - they rely on dishing out some dps so as to increase their force regen rates (which the activated heals drain heavily). Bubble-mezzes (which can be pre-cast bubbles selectively removed via r-click) buy them enough time to self-heal significantly - also, their AoE knockback will cause the 5s root - and their damage isn't awful (nor is their healing) - then again, the same could be said of a DPS sorcerer (with 0 points in healing) - their heal values are high - way too high. My madness sorc. for example crits 5k+ with dark infusion (with a pvp heal debuff, mind you).

 

In my opinion, no one heal class is better than the others (they all excel at certain things more effectively than each other) - they're all best in specific situations (i.e. merc/commando clutch healing, ops/scounds mobile healing via HoT's, sorc/sages blend of heals with best heal-bomb IMO). However, I DO feel that a group ops/scound healers are the best healer to be if they're the only healer in a group - they can often keep every (or at least most-every) teammate alive when facing a group of uncoordinated PuG's, healer heavy/burst dps lacking teams, etc. BUT they generally lack the ability to sustain teammates that are being focus-fired (without the aid/support of other healers and/or tanks). And all healers become exponentially more effective in a warzone match for every taunting class that is present on their team (gets rediculous when teams that have 3 assassins/shadows, 2 ptech/vg, and 2-3 healers are on a team due to perma-taunts - yeah, safe to say healers can still be god-mode in situations like this - which is usually how the pubs roll on my server now).

[Arkerus]

The multiplier bit is true. But why is it acceptable for healers to bang their heads against the wall as opposed to DPS? So its not 'dumb' for a healer to not being able to heal because they must be easily killed by a DPS unless there are good players who know how to support them?

 

 

No one said "easily". I always used the term "eventually". Healers cannot stay alive indefinitely or PvP has no purpose.

 

That said, in a perfectly balanced world, the better player between the healer and the DPS should win.

 

Also, while DPS is trying to kill a healer, they are punching bag for the opposite team.

Edited May 22, 2012 by Arkerus

[SinnedWill]

Making up quotes is fun!

 

Pretty sure Ohlen basically told healers that healing is where its supposed to be.

 

Healing certainly is where it should be. Taunts need to become stance-specific, however, and tank stances need a dps reduction (well, 1 tank class does, at least - hybrid tanks of jugg/guardian and ptech/vanguard need a damage reduction when in tank-stance/cylinder for using non-tank spec abilities/talents, I think). Let's be honest - 2-3 healers grouped with a team composed entirely of taunt-capable classes (don't even need to be tank-specced - in fact, dps specs usually cause this to be most effective), still causes the whole "god-mode" healing issues - particularly when there are multiple tankassins/shadowtanks (their aoe damage debuffs stack with each other and taunts - and, well, they certainly don't lack in dps).

[pathiss]

I can't believe you used the "they're only good against the legions of bad players, but they are really underpowered so please buff them" excuse.

 

It looks like you need to read what I wrote again, because you missed it.

[xxprimalxx]

Making up quotes is fun!

 

Pretty sure Ohlen basically told healers that healing is where its supposed to be.

 

Ok. Get the sleep out of your eyes and pull.your head out of your but t. HEALING is not the problem. SURVIVING long enough to actually cast a heal is.

[pathiss]

If a healer (sage/sorc) is more easily killed, then a group need only send one DPS to lock them down. If that healer cannot defend, more of the team is diverted towards protection rather than objectives and DPS.

 

I am not disagreeing with what you are saying here.... I agree with it. I do think you aren't looking at the big picture of what I posted in CONTEXT of why I posted it.

[pathiss]

All healers are skilled keyboard NINJAS!

 

DPS players are mouth breathing morons who probably use a steering wheel instead of a keyboard!

 

(Did I do it right?)

 

Come on man, show a little maturity instead of being silly.

 

I played all three healing classes and I can tell you hands down that there is a HUGE difference between them. The skill level required to kill my operative is light years beyond what it takes to kill my sorcerer. It has nothing to do with any of the garbage you spewed above and EVERYTHING to do with susceptibility to interrupts.

[pathiss]

Ok. Get the sleep out of your eyes and pull.your head out of your but t. HEALING is not the problem. SURVIVING long enough to actually cast a heal is.

 

Or in the case of sorcerers, actually being able to cast a heal even if the survive long enough to.

[SinnedWill]

No one said "easily". I always used the term "eventually". Healers cannot stay alive indefinitely or PvP has no purpose.

 

That said, in a perfectly balanced world, the better player between the healer and the DPS should win.

 

Also, while DPS is trying to kill a healer, they are punching bag for the opposite team.

 

Can't agree more - if a team is permitting a marauder/sentinel to get in the face of their healers without so much as sending taunts/slows/roots/stuns/knockbacks/pulls/accuracy debuff/cc of any sort or just outright bursting the guy pressuring your healer down with a quickness, they deserve to lose their healer early/often (which roughly translates into their own demise shortly thereafter). Merc/Comando DPS is one of the worst at "peeling" in most cases - though they're great at it in huttball when they and the healer are on platforms - unfortunately, they too can (and eventualy will be) knocked off platforms.

[Arkerus]

Ok. Get the sleep out of your eyes and pull.your head out of your but t. HEALING is not the problem. SURVIVING long enough to actually cast a heal is.

 

Oh, I see. We've moved the goalstick to the other side of the field. They don't play by themselves. They buff eachother indirectly. If a class has longer survivability, heals on themselves become that much more easy to cast. Now it takes even longer to remove the amount healed through simple DPS. Interrupts will always be part of the game but they have cooldowns.

 

Healing is where its supposed to be.

[Arkerus]

Come on man, show a little maturity instead of being silly.

 

I played all three healing classes and I can tell you hands down that there is a HUGE difference between them. The skill level required to kill my operative is light years beyond what it takes to kill my sorcerer. It has nothing to do with any of the garbage you spewed above and EVERYTHING to do with susceptibility to interrupts.

 

Learn to take a joke man. Seriously. Lighten up.

 

"I'm a skilled NINJA!!!" Remember roguecraft? Maybe you didn't see it.

[pathiss]

Learn to take a joke man. Seriously. Lighten up.

 

I take jokes just fine. You weren't joking, you were blatantly trolling. I get it and am guilty of it myself, but this game is on a death spiral and it requires some seriousness rather than random crap clouding up the issues.

[Arkerus]

I take jokes just fine. You weren't joking, you were blatantly trolling. I get it and am guilty of it myself, but this game is on a death spiral and it requires some seriousness rather than random crap clouding up the issues.

 

Wow. Forums are serious business.

 

 

For your reference.

 

How else could an elite video game master lose to noobs?

Edited May 22, 2012 by Arkerus

[xxIncubixx]

Healers were never "unkillable" before if you knew how to interrupt and cc them appropriately.

 

because commando can interrupt and cc like crazy!

[Bolanos]

My biggest problem with all of this is the feeling that BW/Ohlen believes that sage's should ONLY be healers. I'm a DPS speced Sage. In EQ1 and 2 I would play a wizard, in shooters I would play a sniper, i like the long range attack. A sage should be like a wizard, which are high damage, should be the hardest hitters of all classes, but the weakest when attacked. Right now, the DPS sages are the softest hitters and the weakest of all classes. And it seems we are this way because BW believes we shouldn't be doing DPS but we should be healing? If this is the case then why the **** do they give us a tele and balance tree? It almost feels like the DPS sages have to wear a crutch because of the healers. I'm getting pounded on for 4 to 6k in full BM gear while all I can dish out is 1.5 to 2.5k?

 

The only reason we hit large numbers at the end of the warzone is because of our area effect's, and because people see those large numbers they jump to conclusions. But last time I checked, it wasn't area effects that killed your opponent, it's the 1v1 burst damage which sages are missing and they are suppose to have because of their class.

 

And as for the large heal, IF, and that's a big IF, you can ever get it to cast because your constantly being interupted and it fails because it's to long of a cast timer on it, it normally heals you for half of what got dished out to you in one shot!

 

It's just upseting to see everytime someone says "sage" everyone thinks Healer. Not every Sage is a Seer (Healer), some Sages are just that, Sages (DPS). And it seems like even BW can't seem to wrap their minds around that concept, it's almost as if they only want sages to heal and nothing else.

[Razuache]

He stated its not where it should be. Great, admitting it is step one. Now lets get to work on improving survivability. All pvp sorc/sage appreciate finally hearing the truth and hopefully this shuts up the people claiming these classes are fine. Thanks Mr. Ohlen.

 

ROLF BUY SOME PVP GEAR NUB ABOSORB HIT ABSORB HIT ABSORB Sorcs sages healing is already op enuff with that mechanic k thanks

[truchaos]

ROLF BUY SOME PVP GEAR NUB ABOSORB HIT ABSORB HIT ABSORB Sorcs sages healing is already op enuff with that mechanic k thanks

 

I'm going to take a wild guess here and say that you have never played a sage/sorc healer in a 50 pvp wz with even partially competent players.

[xxprimalxx]

ROLF BUY SOME PVP GEAR NUB ABOSORB HIT ABSORB HIT ABSORB Sorcs sages healing is already op enuff with that mechanic k thanks

 

And here we have yet another example of the mindless, low brow, knuckle dragging creatures called "deepeeess"

[IHate]

Except:

 

 

 

Btw, nice name :-)

 

LOL...you SHOULDN'T be able to kill 3 healers...but if they out dps you then you are the problem tbh for objectives than you need to look at other things tbh