VG Test

[ATango]

So I decided to run all the specs the last week and these are my thoughts. I used to run IF build.

 

Assault Specialist: This is a very good spec and my favorite between the 2 dps trees. You can do decent damage at range while running in for mid-range and melee abilities. Free HiB normally procs within the first few Ion pulses and stock strike. The root break attached with Reactive Shield is nice and the short cd's on quite a few of our emergency abilities is great. It is easy to kite with this spec by spamming Ion pulses and filling other abilities between them. The main beef with this spec is survivability.

 

Tactics: This will definitely take a bit more practice to master. Need to be proactive with Hold the Line. I don't like this spec as it's slow is attached to a melee attack which isn't where you want to be against some classes. The pro of this tree is it isn't tied to HEC. The only thing you lose out is a 15% extra speed but only if you specced into it if you choose to go Ion Cell. Tactics could really use an extra root along with the 1 effective stun. The gamestyle flow just didn't appeal to me. Maybe in time.

 

Shield Specialist: This is the frontline spec. The roots attached with storm, stealth scan and harpoon makes sure no one gets away on your watch most of the times. You have slightly better survivability but the drawback is you don't do nearly as much damage as an equally geared player in the other trees, especially AS specced. I also noticed that Static Shield damage debuff doesn't add to your protection values. Only taunts and guard. Not sure if it's intended. I feel like this the weaker of the tank classes though and sometimes I do question whether this is a tank class when I face certain classes but it's all about the role. This isn't about you, this is about the team.

 

The WZ that brought the specs to their limits I would say is Huttball as mobility suffered with the dps specs and tactics suffered the most. Players that run tactics got to be quick on the draw with Hold the Line on the ramps. If knocked off the ramps tactics suffered the most as the abilities are mainly close range. Even with Shield Specialist you always have a way of getting to the action or bringing the action to you. Tactics is strong on mid control though. AS is not fully compromised when knocked off as you can still use 5 abilities at max range.

 

My final verdict. I hate being deprived of mobility so I'm staying SS. I understand my role is not damage but to control the flow and protect others. If I ever want to go offensive I think I would prefer AS to Tactics.

Edited May 23, 2012 by ATango

[olemanbourbon]

Agree with most of what you say, although I am an IF to Assault convert. IF is a ton of fun and can really harass healers and casters while being tough to kill, but there's whole lot of plinking going on with that build.

 

It should be noted that the skill Storm completely changes the value of a trooper in huttball, probably the most-seen WZ of only 4. My assault trooper is so-so in huttball. Storm owns that WZ. The skill name should be changed to "Huttball Storm."

[Keypek]

Agree with most of what you say, although I am an IF to Assault convert. IF is a ton of fun and can really harass healers and casters while being tough to kill, but there's whole lot of plinking going on with that build.

 

It should be noted that the skill Storm completely changes the value of a trooper in huttball, probably the most-seen WZ of only 4. My assault trooper is so-so in huttball. Storm owns that WZ. The skill name should be changed to "Huttball Storm."

 

QFT. Switched from IF to assault also and love it. But definitely agree about huttball. With IF spec I only loved playing huttball because you are a god in it but hated the other warzones. Now with assault I love all the other warzones and tolerate huttball.

[ATango]

I don't think Huttball should be the reason to not like the spec. It's just that your role changes. Find the role that suits your spec and class. As IF I am accustomed to charging into the heat of the action. Just can't do that anymore.

[MatticusFinch]

A very apt assessment of the specs. I actually did the exact same thing as you this last week and came to the same conclusions. Quite the coincidence!

 

I tried really hard to like tactics, but I just didn't. Ran a 8/6/27 AS and loved it for PvE and PvP maximum dps.

 

Now, what I've settled on is a full tank spec (34/7/0) that's great for PvE and PvP. When I want to do more damage, I put on my dps gear and I'm very pleased with how much damage you put out while maintaining the survivability of the SS tree and maintain the ability to guard. I like this much more than using Ion Cell with a tactics build. Just wish I had two extra points for Heavy Stock...

[ATango]

A very apt assessment of the specs. I actually did the exact same thing as you this last week and came to the same conclusions. Quite the coincidence!

 

I tried really hard to like tactics, but I just didn't. Ran a 8/6/27 AS and loved it for PvE and PvP maximum dps.

 

Now, what I've settled on is a full tank spec (34/7/0) that's great for PvE and PvP. When I want to do more damage, I put on my dps gear and I'm very pleased with how much damage you put out while maintaining the survivability of the SS tree and maintain the ability to guard. I like this much more than using Ion Cell with a tactics build. Just wish I had two extra points for Heavy Stock...

 

Was running IF with frontline defense and Gut. I am now trying for the elemental damage rather than kinetic from gut. 31/8/2. The only deciding factor that will make me switch back to IF is the 2 secs in Frontline Defense for Riot Strike. We'll see.

 

On the switch-side I ran 8/2/31 as AS. Like I mentioned above I was really trying to test out the various trees.

Edited May 16, 2012 by ATango

[Philosomanic]

I'm running 2/8/31 now, and honestly I'm happy with the defenses. Reactive Shield and Adrenaline Rush both cooldown in a minute or less for me. With reactive shield up, I'm harder to kill than an IF Vanguard or an SS Vanguard taking tech/force damage. I'm willing to live with defenses that are somewhat cooldown-reliant in exchange for the incredibly flexible DPS of Assault.

 

Part of the reason I feel so tanky is that my first character was a Shadow. Taking a Shadow to 50 really makes you appreciate the heavy armor of a Vangaurd.

Edited May 16, 2012 by Philosomanic

[MatticusFinch]

I'm running 2/8/31 now, and honestly I'm happy with the defenses. Reactive Shield and Adrenaline Rush both cooldown in a minute or less for me. With reactive shield up, I'm harder to kill than an IF Vanguard or an SS Vanguard taking tech/force damage. I'm willing to live with defenses that are somewhat cooldown-reliant in exchange for the incredibly flexible DPS of Assault.

 

Part of the reason I feel so tanky is that my first character was a Shadow. Taking a Shadow to 50 really makes you appreciate the heavy armor of a Vangaurd.

 

That looks like an appealing build, actually. I think I'd probably take the points from Tactical Tools and put them in Power Armor. Also, maybe something without AP like this.

[TheOpf]

You are incorrect on your assessment of Tactics. It is completely tied to HEC. Any jump from HEC results in a significant dps loss, heat issues, and significant loss of mobility. With no active slows the 15 percent in combat speed buff is essential for maximizing it's usage. Tactics is fantastic once you get the hang of the playstyle. It can be a bit complicated when you first switch from assault, but it's not as bad as you say, and it's completely awful if used with Ion Cell.

 

Your lack of usage of HEC is what killed your mobility. Tactics is a spec that requires you to be on the move and always attacking, and setting up PG. I will agree that it takes several days to get used to the spec though. It took me about 3 days of constant pvp to get used to setting up PG.

Edited May 16, 2012 by TheOpf

[ATango]

You are incorrect on your assessment of Tactics. It is completely tied to HEC. Any jump from HEC results in a significant dps loss, heat issues, and significant loss of mobility. With no active slows the 15 percent in combat speed buff is essential for maximizing it's usage. Tactics is fantastic once you get the hang of the playstyle. It can be a bit complicated when you first switch from assault, but it's not as bad as you say, and it's completely awful if used with Ion Cell.

 

Your lack of usage of HEC is what killed your mobility. Tactics is a spec that requires you to be on the move and always attacking, and setting up PG. I will agree that it takes several days to get used to the spec though. It took me about 3 days of constant pvp to get used to setting up PG.

 

I actually played it with HEC and not Ion Cell. Probably not as long as I would of needed to in order to perfect some techniques and rotation. I did not take PG as I can't understand any PvP spec that requires you to be stationary as a good one. The only talent I see that benefits from HEC being active is Battlefield Training. Is the 5% increase in elemental damage from HEC that much of a bonus? Is PG 20% increase in damage to only Pulse Cannon without the 70% slow really worth it? I will test it further later on but right now I'm testing out the Ion 31/8/2 build.

[Avicii]

I actually played it with HEC and not Ion Cell. Probably not as long as I would of needed to in order to perfect some techniques and rotation. I did not take PG as I can't understand any PvP spec that requires you to be stationary as a good one. The only talent I see that benefits from HEC being active is Battlefield Training. Is the 5% increase in elemental damage from HEC that much of a bonus? Is PG 20% increase in damage to only Pulse Cannon without the 70% slow really worth it? I will test it further later on but right now I'm testing out the Ion 31/8/2 build.

 

 

TheOpf - Bug Note: 4/19/12 - Currently The Vanguard Pulse Generator ability is broken. The 70 percent slow is not working at all (for those of us who played AP pre-1.2 we know how frustrating this is) though their Pulse Generator does affect both Mortar Volley and Sticky Grenade. This is a noted bug, and I would recommend everyone post it in the Bugs both in-game and on the forum.

 

Yes it is worth it, it is harder to get off without the slow but it can be done with some practice. WIth PG buffing MV and SG right now its pretty much required imo.

[TheOpf]

I actually played it with HEC and not Ion Cell. Probably not as long as I would of needed to in order to perfect some techniques and rotation. I did not take PG as I can't understand any PvP spec that requires you to be stationary as a good one. The only talent I see that benefits from HEC being active is Battlefield Training. Is the 5% increase in elemental damage from HEC that much of a bonus? Is PG 20% increase in damage to only Pulse Cannon without the 70% slow really worth it? I will test it further later on but right now I'm testing out the Ion 31/8/2 build.

 

You are stationary for 3 seconds of an uninterruptible channel. Just about every class as one channeled ability including assassins. It's definitely working. In my full PVE set, I once had 4 ticks of 2100 on a boss. That's 8400 damage in 3 seconds. In pvp, the best I ever saw was 4 ticks of 1800 on non-geared players. Against Wh geared people it's still 4500-5500 over a span of 3 seconds. Which is still strong considering it will hit everyone in the cone for that amount. I have seen 3 guys get fried by PFT/PG before, and it's absolutely awesome.

 

HEC is 8 percent elemental and internal damage, passive heat venting and 15 percent speed increase. it's absolutely a great Cell. You are missing the talented venting and the extra 3 percent damage. Remember only HiB, Rapid, Unload, and StockStrike don't receive the benefit from the Cell.

 

Gut, IP, FP, PG all receive benefits. Personally, everytime I play my operative and watch myself slow down in combat, I wish I had HEC. 15 percent is pretty good, you can catch just about anyone. Not to mention you would overheat constantly if it weren't for the passive venting.

[ATango]

Oh, didn't know that PG buffed Mortar Volley and Sticky Grenade too. Definitely didn't say that in the talent. Using the other abilities reset the 5 stacks or does only PC do it?

 

5K in a channel is pretty decent imo, That is true, even without the slow it's still can't be interrupted and maybe smack em with a gut slow prior to casting. Appreciate the input on Tactics spec. I'm convinced to give it another try but this time will spec into PG and probably should play more than 2 days this time.

Edited May 17, 2012 by ATango

[MatticusFinch]

Oh, didn't know that PG buffed Mortar Volley and Sticky Grenade too. Definitely didn't say that in the talent. Using the other abilities reset the 5 stacks or does only PC do it?

 

5K in a channel is pretty decent imo, That is true, even without the slow it's still can't be interrupted and maybe smack em with a gut slow prior to casting. Appreciate the input on Tactics spec. I'm convinced to give it another try but this time will spec into PG and probably should play more than 2 days this time.

 

So I would love a definitive answer here, because I don't think that PG buffs other aoe's, even though the mouse-over tool-tip says it does. Can anyone clarify on this please? There's a whole world of possibilities that open up if that really is the case, but the skill tree tool-tip leads me to believe that it's only PC that's buffed.

[ATango]

So I would love a definitive answer here, because I don't think that PG buffs other aoe's, even though the mouse-over tool-tip says it does. Can anyone clarify on this please? There's a whole world of possibilities that open up if that really is the case, but the skill tree tool-tip leads me to believe that it's only PC that's buffed.

 

 

Quote:

TheOpf - Bug Note: 4/19/12 - Currently The Vanguard Pulse Generator ability is broken. The 70 percent slow is not working at all (for those of us who played AP pre-1.2 we know how frustrating this is) though their Pulse Generator does affect both Mortar Volley and Sticky Grenade. This is a noted bug, and I would recommend everyone post it in the Bugs both in-game and on the forum.

 

As TheOpf is the contributor to the tactics guide sticky here and its equivalent in the BH forums I would trust their judgement. The only question I would have is whether this bug still applies on 5/17/12?

[Krayshawn]

It is a current bug, one which we are aloud to abuse. This is due to the bug which causes us to not receive the 70% snare when using PG - PC. It does not say it, but i have certainly seen results, also Explosive Surge causes a stack of PG to build. I am LOVING tactics now (NORSE) thanks to the help from TheOPf and his guide. This may just be me, but my guild loves it too because now we coordinate massive AoE's i run with a GS and a Scoundrel(sawbones), we AOE a group of 3 or more, heh they are gone; I can't wait till the 70% snare is fixed because then it will keep them there. Edited May 17, 2012 by Krayshawn

[TheOpf]

It is a current bug, one which we are aloud to abuse. This is due to the bug which causes us to not receive the 70% snare when using PG - PC. It does not say it, but i have certainly seen results, also Explosive Surge causes a stack of PG to build. I am LOVING tactics now (NORSE) thanks to the help from TheOPf and his guide. This may just be me, but my guild loves it too because now we coordinate massive AoE's i run with a GS and a Scoundrel(sawbones), we AOE a group of 3 or more, heh they are gone; I can't wait till the 70% snare is fixed because then it will keep them there.

 

This one, and I almost wish the bug was the same for PT's. I would love to actually use Explosive Dart. Instead it's like shoulder slam completely off my bar.

 

From everything we have seen Advanced prototype has the slow, but not the buff to Death From Above or Explosive Dart. Tactics does not have the slow connected to PC, but it does get the buff to Mortar Volley and your Grenade. Our thought is the same bug that caused PG to buff all of your aoe's is affecting the slow. Changing one will probably eliminate the other.

 

It has been a noted bug since 1.2 came out, and has yet to be fixed or even acknowledged by Bioware. My best guess is that fixing it is going to be tougher than they thought, and may break something else. Tactics Vanguards have a few noted bugs that the PT Advanced Prototype does not have any issues with. I am thinking of creating and leveling a vanguard just to keep opening the ticket on this issue.

[Krayshawn]

This one, and I almost wish the bug was the same for PT's. I would love to actually use Explosive Dart. Instead it's like shoulder slam completely off my bar.

 

From everything we have seen Advanced prototype has the slow, but not the buff to Death From Above or Explosive Dart. Tactics does not have the slow connected to PC, but it does get the buff to Mortar Volley and your Grenade. Our thought is the same bug that caused PG to buff all of your aoe's is affecting the slow. Changing one will probably eliminate the other.

 

It has been a noted bug since 1.2 came out, and has yet to be fixed or even acknowledged by Bioware. My best guess is that fixing it is going to be tougher than they thought, and may break something else. Tactics Vanguards have a few noted bugs that the PT Advanced Prototype does not have any issues with. I am thinking of creating and leveling a vanguard just to keep opening the ticket on this issue.

 

Oh you know, just submitting this ticket about PG, only level 20... "yea yea yea, i know i don't have the perk yet but its broken."

[AtomicDP]

Painfully, and unfortunately, wrong analysis of the tactics tree. Running a NORSE spec myself, and I must say it rivals AS, if not surpasses it COMPLETELY, due to the utility that is available from Hold the Line and the devastation of your pulse generator when properly employed. It's not a spec that people from IF can simply switch to and master in a day because it's a completely different play style. The mastery of tactics revolves around smart usage of Hold the Line and a solid capability to build stacks of PG and utilize your VAST mobility against other classes. You have great damage too, my fire pulse constantly crits for 3200+ and coupled with 2.2k ion pulse and stock strike crits you can dish out the damage as well as anyone else. Running HEC is a must, no idea why you chose ion cell, but I recommend against it, if you want to be a DPS tank go IF, not tactics, tactics is a DPS spec. IF's survivability is through its defense, assault's survivability is through its damage, and tactics' survivability is through its...well tactics - aka your mobility.

[TheOpf]

Painfully, and unfortunately, wrong analysis of the tactics tree. Running a NORSE spec myself, and I must say it rivals AS, if not surpasses it COMPLETELY, due to the utility that is available from Hold the Line and the devastation of your pulse generator when properly employed. It's not a spec that people from IF can simply switch to and master in a day because it's a completely different play style. The mastery of tactics revolves around smart usage of Hold the Line and a solid capability to build stacks of PG and utilize your VAST mobility against other classes. You have great damage too, my fire pulse constantly crits for 3200+ and coupled with 2.2k ion pulse and stock strike crits you can dish out the damage as well as anyone else. Running HEC is a must, no idea why you chose ion cell, but I recommend against it, if you want to be a DPS tank go IF, not tactics, tactics is a DPS spec. IF's survivability is through its defense, assault's survivability is through its damage, and tactics' survivability is through its...well tactics - aka your mobility.

 

What really makes me laugh now, is that the Norse is probably the 2nd most popular PVP spec for both Vanguards and Powertechs. With Pyro/Assault and the Norse, you are seeing fewer Tank or Iron Fist players, and I am now receiving lots of hate on my server for playing a PT. The Marauders are trying to call us OP because we can actually kill them now. The funny part is nothing has changed in terms of damage increases what has changed is our understanding of the AP/Tactics tree, and a slight nerf to Pyro/Assault. The knowldge has created an influx of better skill PT/VG's, and fewer tanks therefore more damage done by PT's/VG's which means people are finally seeing how powerful we could always be.

 

It used to be 1 out of ever 4 PT/VG's were dps in WZ's. Now it's 3 out of every 4. Marauders are trying to deflect the anger against them by claiming PT/VG's are OP now . Revel in the love!

 

Oh and so everyone can get a good chuckle. I was playing my Operative alt, and was fighting a Norse specced Vanguard. I turned to stun someone, and took the full brunt of PG without running out of the way. I died laughing at myself.

Edited May 18, 2012 by TheOpf

[Krayshawn]

Painfully, and unfortunately, wrong analysis of the tactics tree. Running a NORSE spec myself, and I must say it rivals AS, if not surpasses it COMPLETELY, due to the utility that is available from Hold the Line and the devastation of your pulse generator when properly employed. It's not a spec that people from IF can simply switch to and master in a day because it's a completely different play style. The mastery of tactics revolves around smart usage of Hold the Line and a solid capability to build stacks of PG and utilize your VAST mobility against other classes. You have great damage too, my fire pulse constantly crits for 3200+ and coupled with 2.2k ion pulse and stock strike crits you can dish out the damage as well as anyone else. Running HEC is a must, no idea why you chose ion cell, but I recommend against it, if you want to be a DPS tank go IF, not tactics, tactics is a DPS spec. IF's survivability is through its defense, assault's survivability is through its damage, and tactics' survivability is through its...well tactics - aka your mobility.

 

I switched to and nearly mastered in a day =p (i know im far from perfect with it, but i definitly conquered the jist of it), thx to the help of theOPf and my naga, i pulled 462k damage, i love NORSE and its amazing for teamwork, passing the ball, and scorring.

 

BTW anybody test differences in augments, i can't decide if i want to stack or use multiple types.

[ATango]

OK, this is the spec I'm planning on trying out. Think you call it the max dps build for tactics.

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#801hMhZMsMMRrfkdsZb.1

 

Still a bit pessimistic about it due to the lack of ranged abilities like AS but I will let you know how it goes

[Zbus]

OK, this is the spec I'm planning on trying out. Think you call it the max dps build for tactics.

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#801hMhZMsMMRrfkdsZb.1

 

Still a bit pessimistic about it due to the lack of ranged abilities like AS but I will let you know how it goes

 

Hmm the points for the aim buff in the shield tree are kind of confuseing. From what i had heard due to the type of attacks tactics use aim was not that important. Honest question i was thinking of going back and giveing tactics anouther go around getting a little bored with shield spec even though i do decent damage with my current dps gear in it.

[ATango]

Hmm the points for the aim buff in the shield tree are kind of confuseing. From what i had heard due to the type of attacks tactics use aim was not that important. Honest question i was thinking of going back and giveing tactics anouther go around getting a little bored with shield spec even though i do decent damage with my current dps gear in it.

 

Aim still contributes to power and crit which increases our damage output.

 

I use dps gear with my shield spec w/Energy Blast but it still does no where near to the damage the AS VG's put out. It's the reason I did the tree evaluations. To open myself to other specs and to find out the pros and cons of the other specs against shield spec.

 

The one definite thing that shield spec surpasses both dps specs on is survivability and mobility. The dps specs add damage, yes, but are at their peak at melee range, which when your on the enemy healer makes you a primary target for their ranged players. I solo queue and don't really have a pocket healer handy.

 

Now for tactics last night, it was a breeze keeping on a single target but this spec isn't well suited for melee. One defensive 25% damage reduction for 12 secs on a 2 min CD isn't enough. Being full melee forces you to be at the mercy of their range and designated peelers when on their healers and we just don't have the defensive cd's to support that role. I think other melee are just better equipped than we are. A lot of times I am back at spawn before I get the stacks to 5. Tactics didn't go well last night for me but it I think it was slightly due to group makeup and lack of heals.

[TheOpf]

Aim still contributes to power and crit which increases our damage output.

 

I use dps gear with my shield spec w/Energy Blast but it still does no where near to the damage the AS VG's put out. It's the reason I did the tree evaluations. To open myself to other specs and to find out the pros and cons of the other specs against shield spec.

 

The one definite thing that shield spec surpasses both dps specs on is survivability and mobility. The dps specs add damage, yes, but are at their peak at melee range, which when your on the enemy healer makes you a primary target for their ranged players. I solo queue and don't really have a pocket healer handy.

 

Now for tactics last night, it was a breeze keeping on a single target but this spec isn't well suited for melee. One defensive 25% damage reduction for 12 secs on a 2 min CD isn't enough. Being full melee forces you to be at the mercy of their range and designated peelers when on their healers and we just don't have the defensive cd's to support that role. I think other melee are just better equipped than we are. A lot of times I am back at spawn before I get the stacks to 5. Tactics didn't go well last night for me but it I think it was slightly due to group makeup and lack of heals.

 

Tactics is highly reliant on gear. You will have higher survival with Norse spec Tactics. Unless you are running into a group of 3 guys you should be able to handle 1 or 2 people and get to 5 stack within 6 - 7 seconds. If you are dying before that point than you aren't strafing enough and you are jumping into the wrong situations. You should be the guy on the outside of the lightsaber wielders shooting and strafing in circles. Run into 4m for your Stockstrike and Gut than get out and strafe until 5. It will get easier.