Armormech needs to make armor mods

[Mikeyeli]

The armor crafting skills are not made obsolete by Orange items, in fact, they play an important role in their use. There are orange versions of every armor graphic in the game, however, most of those orange versions can only be crafted by their respective armor crafting skill. These schematics are discovered through Underworld Trading.

 

Crafted Armor also has it's place in the world. If you wear entirely orange items, that means you have to keep 32 Mod slots up to date in addition to your 6 non-visible slots. Add in critical crafting, and that's another 6 slots. Add items for those slots that may perhaps have more than one mod slot, and the number grows from there.

 

Meanwhile, crafted items can be produced with stats with as much or more variety than those of orange items, and they will require only one mod.

 

This means that in order to be outfitted in the most powerful crafted items with as many oranges as possible, you would need to get best in slot items for 44 slots. 47 if you dual wield.

 

In order to be outfitted in the very best crafted gear using normal items, you would only have to worry about 28 slots.

 

As there is no single profession that can provide all mod types, this means that Orange wearers would have to spend a significant amount of time or credits finding the appropriate mods.

 

Crafters who wear their own normal crafted gear need only seek outside assistance for the Augment item mod slot. They would, however, need to spend a great deal of time and money on acquiring materials, and reverse engineering to discover the items they want.

 

In the end, it all balances out.

 

For more information on how crafters can find such a wide variety of items to craft, refer to my guide on reverse engineering here: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=45866

 

You've inspired me to add a section on this to the guide, so I'll shout you out with a special thanks at the bottom, thank you.

 

I picked up Armormech for my smuggler when first arriving to the republic fleet, and i got decent gear while leveling.

 

But then it hit me, whats the point if later on, ill probably be farming Orange gear! so my mentality was so so the same as the OP's

 

Then i read your post, everything you wrote is obvious, but i still wasnt seeing it, anyways. thank you for giving an actual opinion that made me change my mind about armormech, and open my eyes, lol

[Slaign]

I picked up Armormech for my smuggler when first arriving to the republic fleet, and i got decent gear while leveling.

 

But then it hit me, whats the point if later on, ill probably be farming Orange gear! so my mentality was so so the same as the OP's

 

Then i read your post, everything you wrote is obvious, but i still wasnt seeing it, anyways. thank you for giving an actual opinion that made me change my mind about armormech, and open my eyes, lol

 

My pleasure, I'm glad you found my post useful, have fun!

[ColonelKer-Nal]

Edit: further getting modable sets with your crafts are rare difficult... and addionally yes looks are actually quite important to a vast majority of players believe it or not, looking like everyone else of same level as yourself is terrible terrible game design! which is why to this day i /facepalm as to why bioware changed the moding system making 90% of gear unmodable really killed looking how want aspect of the game.

 

Let me requote the parts you ignored

 

Look, I'm a huge fan of making my character look how I want them to look. I play CoH, and a good part of that is for the character creator.

 

How my character looks is very important to me. I do not want to run around like a mismatched, colorblind clown. Or clone. See my quote above.

 

Frankly, it should be easier for the other crafts to make items with mod slots. Then everyone is more dependent on each other (and therefore the market).

 

See the bolded section. I even went so far as to lay out a working system where a guaranteed number of mod slots get added to green, blue, and purple recipes that get RE'd enough, until you end up getting 3 mod slots on every purple and 4 if you crit. Hey devs, you missed a recurring time/credit sink - and one that makes sense at that. (Unlike paying 40k to learn to drive a speeder.)

 

I'm not opposed to his ideas, just the degree to which he takes them. He would gut crafting entirely. Not that it's in the best shape now, but it would be much worse if his ideas were implemented.

Edited December 18, 2011 by ColonelKer-Nal

[Ohoni]

Well so far from what I have seen, many armor / weapon mods can be purchased through accomidations. Many mods can be taken off gear. Mods are obtainable other ways like shells can be.

 

This is true, but there's a lot less variety there, you can only get them at set levels, and within a level or two there will be better ones available. Armormech cannot currently make mods at all, which is the problem.

 

If you keep wanting to play the useless game, raid gear will probably wipe out most professions as they do in other games.

 

Sure, but that's only at endgame.

 

Wrong, my arguments do not assume an appearance system

 

Ok, fair enough, but they only make any sense under an appearance system of some kind, one in which an item's stats is the only value worth considering.

 

Also, while I may have to replace my armor every few levels, you will have to replace 3-4 mods in every one of those slots every few levels, making you worse off.

 

Again, you're insisting something that isn't true, namely that 3-4 mods is somehow equal to 3-4 armor pieces, that quantity is equivalent. It's not. 3-4 mods is equal to 1 armor piece, so needing to get 3-4 mods is really no problem in comparison. Take Coruscant commendations, for example, one pair of pants runs 14 commendations, while a full set of mods to upgrade armor to at or above that level of strength runs about the same amount. Now, if each mod cost the same amount to make as a full piece of armor, and therefore cost the same to acquire, then yes, it would be a process that costs three times as much and would be a losing proposition for everyone involved, but that's not the game we're playing.

 

Finally, if appearance is that important to you, you would be crazy to think you will want to stick with ONE appearance for life. If appearance gives you kicks, then you will want to change it up and find new styles often.

 

In theory. Change can be good, but forced change is often bad. I don't so much care about changing looks as I do not looking stupid. Most of the time my character spends looking stupid, forced to wear mismatching random #### because it's whatever offers the best stats of the moment. I already have a chest piece that doesn't look stupid, now all I need is a good pair of pants.

 

If I could find a look that looked great AND could be modded to the best stats available, while I might be interested in changing it later, I wouldn't be compelled to do so in most cases.

 

Yeah, if it were as simple as DCUO where I could choose my looks from a menu then I'd probably change more often, hell my GL is currently rocking a festive Christmas sweater, but with the hassles involved in SWtOR it's just not worth the bother.

 

Orange shells will sell for prices much higher than individual mods, helping to even it out.

 

Which just means that they'll be a super-niche market, with most players not even bothering with them until they have too much money to care how they spend it.

 

They can also provide for their companions, a great point you brought up. I doubt people want to manage mods on all their companions as well!

 

Yeah, but I don't care if my companion looks a bit stupid, I'll just dump my spare mission rewards on him. Not to mention that most missions award items specifically FOr companions that tend to be as good, or better, than crafted. I had a BH last build and the "Makowear" stuff was typically much better than what I could craft for her at that level. Armormech is slightly better for a BH than a Trooper, since Mako can't wear hand-me-downs like Catman can, but there are still better options out there.

[Slaign]

Again, you're insisting something that isn't true, namely that 3-4 mods is somehow equal to 3-4 armor pieces, that quantity is equivalent. It's not. 3-4 mods is equal to 1 armor piece, so needing to get 3-4 mods is really no problem in comparison. Take Coruscant commendations, for example, one pair of pants runs 14 commendations, while a full set of mods to upgrade armor to at or above that level of strength runs about the same amount. Now, if each mod cost the same amount to make as a full piece of armor, and therefore cost the same to acquire, then yes, it would be a process that costs three times as much and would be a losing proposition for everyone involved, but that's not the game we're playing.

 

Yes, commendations allow you to spend approximately the same amount on each type, but 1. As you pointed out, commendation gear is only for certain levels and is quickly outdated. 2. We are talking about crafting here, not commendations.

 

In crafting, it costs the same amount of credits and time to send my crew on missions or hunt down nodes to make a single armor piece as it does to make a single mod. You seem to be under the impression that since mods are cheaper on commendation vendors, the same is true of crafting. It is not. I have a mod crafter and an armor crafter. The material cost for a mod and an item are roughly equivalent.

 

Since crafting is the primary source for mods and armor across most levels, this means you WILL have to spend 3-4 times as much in material costs to stay updated in orange gear as opposed to regular gear.

 

I will not argue this point with you any more, you are simply incorrect in many assumptions you refuse to budge on, and you fail to understand how the system works in broad terms. I have nothing more to say about the subject, I've elaborated on it more than should be needed, and you are saying nothing new in response. It's time to end this.

 

As I said before, if you do not like Armsmech, abandon it and use another skill. If enough people agree with you, they will do the same. If that happens, BioWare will see that no one uses it, and make changes. If it does not happen, you are obviously wrong and other people find value where you do not.

 

Not every skill is for everyone, and you fail to see beyond your own personal views. You do not have multiple people arguing against your point simply because we are stupid. We are not. This should be clear by the reason and clarity of our posts. While it is true you do have some others expressing similar views as your own, the key difference is in what you are asking. You are asking that something you don't like be changed because you don't like it, and further implying that it is broken and unlikable. We are insisting that we do like it, and that if you do not, you should find something else rather than demanding a change to what we like. Our position is one of maturity. Yours is one of "No! I want it MY WAY!"

 

Continue your crusade if you must. I'm not afraid you will change anything, because one opinion doesn't count for much, and if it bears out that no one likes the armor professions as they are, then obviously a change will be in order. I was merely trying to help you understand the uses and advantages you failed to see, or tossed aside as unimportant. I was trying to help you be happier by pointing out that the system is not as fundamentally flawed as you assume. That has apparently failed, and I've lost the will to continue to try.

 

I wish you luck, and hope you find happiness in life, this game and in crafting, one way or another.

[Ohoni]

Yes, commendations allow you to spend approximately the same amount on each type, but 1. As you pointed out, commendation gear is only for certain levels and is quickly outdated. 2. We are talking about crafting here, not commendations.

 

I mentioned them because that's one area in the game where there's an easy "this= that" relationship.

 

In crafting, it costs the same amount of credits and time to send my crew on missions or hunt down nodes to make a single armor piece as it does to make a single mod.

 

It's been a while since I played a skillset that could make mods, but as I remember they cost well fewer resources than a full piece of armor, especially of the high-quality types. Could you give an example of same-level armor and mods and what each would cost in materials?

 

The material cost for a mod and an item are roughly equivalent.

 

If that's true then the system is seriously imbalanced, since, as you point out, it would cost about four times as much to modify an armor up to a given level as to craft a new one, which would make appearance customization a HUGE rip-off. They could not justify orange armor as an alternative to an appearance tab with such a huge cost imbalance between the two. If they're meant to be equivalent systems then the cost between the two needs to be in balance.

 

Not every skill is for everyone, and you fail to see beyond your own personal views. You do not have multiple people arguing against your point simply because we are stupid. We are not. This should be clear by the reason and clarity of our posts.

 

You clearly aren't stupid, you're just clearly missing some key elements of the situation, you have a very specific viewpoint as to what makes a good crafting system that just don't work for a broader player population.

 

You are asking that something you don't like be changed because you don't like it, and further implying that it is broken and unlikable. We are insisting that we do like it, and that if you do not, you should find something else rather than demanding a change to what we like. Our position is one of maturity. Yours is one of "No! I want it MY WAY!"

 

How very humble of you to admit to your own maturity. I fail to see why asking for change is somehow a less "mature" position than asking for stagnancy. I see a system that I believe has flaws, so I ask for it to be changed, you see a system that you believe is without flaws, so you ask for it to be left alone. We can argue the merits of our relative positions, but if it's immature of me to request change to what I believe would be an all around superior model, it's no less mature for you to cling to the existing one. I think it would be best to leave the personal digs out of this.

 

I wish you luck, and hope you find happiness in life, this game and in crafting, one way or another.

 

Ditto, and I hope that whatever the system we end up with, it turns out to be as engaging and profitable as you hope for.

[Repefe]

Thing is you have to get your hands on the right orange gear first ... having armortech is most useful for that. I acutally dropped cybertech in favor of armortech so I can craft the orange gear for myself. Once I have full set I will drop it and get cybertech back ... different profession serves different purpose, go figure.

[HeavensAgent]

There are companion skills that produce mods, and there are companion skills that produce orange-quality items that need mods. The system seems pretty logical to me. It may devalue some of the skills in the eyes of certain people, such as the OP, but that's nothing new. As crafters most of us are likely familiar with the fact that some view crafting in general to be worthless, because they can obtain equivalent items through missions and other game rewards. This doesn't mean the system is broken or needs changed. It just means people have different perspectives and opinions.

 

I'm a Synthweaver and proud of that fact. I took the skill specifically to produce orange-quality items for myself, my friends, and the rest of the community. I truly value the crew skill. Others may not, and they should probably learn other skills. Leave Synthweaving and Armormech to those of us who feel its worthwhile.

[CriticalMasses]

So Artificing will still be useful under the current system, so it's just Armormech, Armstech, and Synthweaving that are obsolete and should be ignored?

 

Artificing can't make augments. In general, for MOST things, I think Crafting is just a waste of time. Certain things, I think you can make money off of, but they are extremely limited in my opinion because loot items and rewards at the same level seem give equally good or slightly better items.

Edited December 18, 2011 by CriticalMasses

[Ohoni]

Thing is you have to get your hands on the right orange gear first ... having armortech is most useful for that.

 

Yes, but as I noted, one, you can get orange gear from other sources, like from mission rewards, and two, once you have ONE piece of orange gear that you like, you'll never need another. You might change anyways, for fun, but you'd never have to, and even if you got a second set of orange gear for free, the cost of moving your mods over to it is non-trivial. Making orange gear shells isn't a completely worthless activity, but it's not enough to justify the crew skill.

 

There are companion skills that produce mods, and there are companion skills that produce orange-quality items that need mods. The system seems pretty logical to me.

 

That equation only balances out if A: you need to replace the orange "shell" every time you want to change out the mods (which would sort of defeat the purpose), OR B: the shell costs a dozen times more than a full set of mods would, because the mods could be changed out dozens over the lifetime of the hull. Which would you rather sell a $5 flashlight, or a $5 pack of batteries?

 

Artificing can't make augments.

 

No, but neither can anyone else, Augments are "made" by Slicer missions, which anyone could pick up on the side.

[Foenixz]

I have a level 17 Trooper (had a higher level in beta, but that's where I'm at right now) that is running Armormech right now, but already I have an Orange chest piece, and since there isn't an appearance management system in the game yet, orange gear seems to be the only way not to be at the whim of the random appearance of "whatever you get," so I imagine I'll eventually have an entirely orange wardrobe, at which point, what does Armormech have to offer? Who would want a piece of unmodifiable armor with a fixed appearance that you may or may not like, when you can look however you want using orange gear?

 

As I understand it, Armomech should be able to craft orange "shells", but those shells are completely worthless without the mods that go into them, so once I have the look that I like, being able to craft shells isn't going o be worth any more than being able to craft blue and green gear that I can't equip without changing my look in a potentially negative way.

 

That being the case, Armormech needs a significant change under the current sysem. Either A: they need the ability to make mods, so that an Armormech capable of making level 15 chest pieces can ALSO make the mods that would make an orange chestpiece equally as strong, OR B: there needs to be a better appearance modification system in place that is largely gear-independent, so that a player can equip a level 15 blue or green piece of Armormech armor, take advantage of those stats, without having it mess up his look.

 

 

No then what do CTs do?

[DarthVindictus]

I see your point, but I see Cybertech as more of a jack of all trades. They should be able to make mods for BOTH armor AND weapons, while being able to produce "cores" for neither. They can also produce "accessories" that neither of the others can craft. Can't they made droid armors, ear pieces, speeders, and other nifty gadgets?

 

They can make niche items like speeders and droid parts and ear pieces yes but only ear pieces might sell well. They make "Mod" slot items as well but those aren't going to be a big enough draw compared to armor plating, barrels, and hilts. Those are the big mods since they actually influence the protection armor gives and the damage weapons do. "Mod" slot and "Enhancement" slot and "Augmentation" slot are just stats. People won't pay the big creds for those if they can get comparable ones from commendations, daily quests, etc.

[Ohoni]

No then what do CTs do?

 

CT's are the jack of all trades crew skill. They get the exclusive market on earpieces and speeders, and also can generate most of the mods, for weapons and armor, but none of the hulls. I don't think that everything needs to be exclusive to only one trade skill, there should be a few points of overlap, like maybe both Artificing and Armormech can make Enhancement mods, and Cybertech can make all, or at least most types of mods, even though other classes can make them too. Cybertech would be the jack of most trades, master of few.

 

CT should be a bit like I remember Engineering being in WoW, you get a little of everything, mostly support options and gizmos that are either fun or useful, occasionally both.

 

They can make niche items like speeders and droid parts and ear pieces yes but only ear pieces might sell well.

 

Those "niche" items you mentioned are more important than the orange hulls that Armormech can get, at least. I'm not suggesting taking armoring mods away form Cybertech, and they can even have Barrels back, I'm just saying that other crewskills should have them too.

 

An Armormech Trooper should be almost completely self-sufficient on armor alone, able to both make pre-fab armors AND mod custom armors, but needing to go elsewhere for his weapon needs. An Armstech Trooper should be almost completely self-sufficient on offense, able to both make pre-fab guns AND mod custom guns, but needing to go elsewhere for armor. A Cybertech trooper should be able to mod both custom guns AND armor, but not be able to make pre-fabs or hulls for either, and also have fun little "trinkets" on the side.

 

Those are the big mods since they actually influence the protection armor gives and the damage weapons do.

 

Yes, which is why for Armormech to be a viable crew skill, it needs to be able to provide these as well, to make the hulls them make worth anything.

[Saldrex]

An Armormech Trooper should be almost completely self-sufficient on armor alone, able to both make pre-fab armors AND mod custom armors, but needing to go elsewhere for his weapon needs. An Armstech Trooper should be almost completely self-sufficient on offense, able to both make pre-fab guns AND mod custom guns, but needing to go elsewhere for armor. A Cybertech trooper should be able to mod both custom guns AND armor, but not be able to make pre-fabs or hulls for either, and also have fun little "trinkets" on the side.

Why must they be completely self sufficient? In another big game, wow for example, they are not self sufficient at all. They craft the base but still need an enchanter for enchants and a jewel crafter for gems. Maybe thinking of the mods as gems / enchants might give you a new view on them.

[AlyxDinas]

I'm just going to say that I've been running an Armormech Vanguard and I'm very much been able to manage in terms of keeping my visual look generally passable and having quality gear for my character. Edited December 19, 2011 by AlyxDinas

[HeavensAgent]

That equation only balances out if A: you need to replace the orange "shell" every time you want to change out the mods (which would sort of defeat the purpose), OR B: the shell costs a dozen times more than a full set of mods would, because the mods could be changed out dozens over the lifetime of the hull. Which would you rather sell a $5 flashlight, or a $5 pack of batteries?

A lot of people collect a multitude of orange gear. Additionally, some highly desirable orange-quality items may indeed cost a dozen times more than a full set of mods. Perhaps several dozen times more. You seem to be forgetting that mods can be obtained everywhere, as mission rewards, random mob drops, and vendor items. Orange-quality items can be obtained in similar ways, but not specific pieces; specific appearances will only be available from crafters.

[Ohoni]

Why must they be completely self sufficient? In another big game, wow for example, they are not self sufficient at all. They craft the base but still need an enchanter for enchants and a jewel crafter for gems. Maybe thinking of the mods as gems / enchants might give you a new view on them.

 

The problem isn't self-sufficiency, although I do think that they should be (but again, only over HALF their capabilities, remember that in WoW, for example, both "Armormech" and "Armstech" are contained in a single skill, so let's compare apples to apples here). The problem is that Armormech isn't even partially sufficient, because they can only craft hulls, which are completely useless in and of themselves. Mods are not just "extras" that you tack on to armor like gems/enchants, they are the core traits that make the armor worth using. Hulls without mods in them are basically social wear. My suggestion was that Armormech be able to craft Armoring mods, a hull+ Armoring mod IS equivalent to a WoW base armor without gems/enchants, and an Armormech character could still need to go to a CT to get the accessory mods, I suppose.

 

I'm just going to say that I've been running an Armormech Vanguard and I'm very much been able to manage in terms of keeping my visual look generally passable and having quality gear for my character.

 

"Passable" is a highly subjective thing. That's part of the problem, they can't decide for us what we'll want to look like, they can't design the system so that everyone will be happy with the looks they assign us at any given level, which is why customization is so important, and gear that does not allow for appearance choice is functionally worthless.

[Nemarus]

I agree with the OP. Given the rapidly changing purposes and priorities of the Crew Skills and the Mod system, it's clear that BioWare was still hashing all of this out when they ran out of time.

 

Expect changes in the future as more and more people lock down on their one orange set and start dropping Armormech and Synthweaving.

[-Axil-]

I also agree with the OP.. how is it not obvious that orange shells that you only need once ever, throughout the entire progression of your character, is inferior to items that actually effect the power of the character, and need to be updated with level?

 

Also, if armstech have barrels, what possible reason could there be for armortech not having armoring?

[Saldrex]

The problem isn't self-sufficiency, although I do think that they should be (but again, only over HALF their capabilities, remember that in WoW, for example, both "Armormech" and "Armstech" are contained in a single skill, so let's compare apples to apples here). The problem is that Armormech isn't even partially sufficient, because they can only craft hulls, which are completely useless in and of themselves. Mods are not just "extras" that you tack on to armor like gems/enchants, they are the core traits that make the armor worth using. Hulls without mods in them are basically social wear. My suggestion was that Armormech be able to craft Armoring mods, a hull+ Armoring mod IS equivalent to a WoW base armor without gems/enchants, and an Armormech character could still need to go to a CT to get the accessory mods, I suppose.

 

I was referring to selfsufficiency in armor. There is no good comparison to anything else but in truth you dont have to make orange gear at all as an armormech, the non orange gear is the same as orange gear with full mods. Craft a purple piece of gear with armormech and be self sufficient in armor. I dont know of any other way to get augment slots in gear other than having it crafted at the moment. I do not know if orange gear can be crafted to have an augment slot but purple gear can be which would make it stronger. Augment slots are supposed to appear on critical crafts of armor.

[grahad]

Even though I am a cybertech, I agree that because of the changes, armor tech must get armor mods. As a matter of fact, they need more than armor mods. They need something the equivalent of a hilt slot item that determines the level for the item.

 

It is probably already in the works.

[Angrah]

Best thing about being an Armortech is when you crit and get a piece with an augment slot.

 

Basically an orange chest with a augment beats all orange drops.

[Ohoni]

There is no good comparison to anything else but in truth you dont have to make orange gear at all as an armormech, the non orange gear is the same as orange gear with full mods.

 

If this game had appearance tabs or some equivalent system then you would be right, but it does not. In this game, orange gear is the ONLY way to control your character's appearance, otherwise you're left at the whims of what the developers decided you should be wearing at this level range, and often the best options available involve mixing crafted gear with prime reward or dropped gear on various tiers. This makes anything not orange a bit obsolete to most players who do care to not look like a clown.

 

Purple gear is moderately upgradable, but you cannot raise it's armoring level, so every few levels you'll need to make a new purple armor, which tends to take extraordinary amounts of materials to unlock, especially if you have a particular stat balance in mind. It's just not practical for even the smallest pieces of armor unless you intend to be a full time shop-keep crafter. It was much easier to keep a purple upgrade in Armstech, since you only need one type of weapon to raise to artifact level, but in Armormech you need to put forth that same effort FIVE times to get a full set of artifact armor, more once helmets become available. If you haven't already outleveled the armor by the time you can craft it then you haven't been leveling fast enough.

 

Augment slots are ok, but they aren't anything to get overly worked up about, I'd rather have a good looking set of orange armor that doesn't have an augment than be at the whims of the armor progression chart with one.

[Maximelene]

The point of Armorsmech is to create the orange armors you are so fond of.

[Ohoni]

The point of Armorsmech is to create the orange armors you are so fond of.

 

/Facepalm.

 

Seriously, that's what you come up with? We've already discussed that, yes, Armorsmech can make some of the orange armors, but they're available through other means, and once you find one you like, you never need another one. And that's the problem, the things the Armorsmech makes are not useless, but they're of limited value, far less than the other crew skills, a bit like a hairdresser in other games, rather than a practical "equipper". If they could make both orange hulls AND Armoring mods to put in them, and maybe a gimmick or two in addition to just the armor, then they would be far more practical.