Armormech needs to make armor mods

[Ohoni]

I have a level 17 Trooper (had a higher level in beta, but that's where I'm at right now) that is running Armormech right now, but already I have an Orange chest piece, and since there isn't an appearance management system in the game yet, orange gear seems to be the only way not to be at the whim of the random appearance of "whatever you get," so I imagine I'll eventually have an entirely orange wardrobe, at which point, what does Armormech have to offer? Who would want a piece of unmodifiable armor with a fixed appearance that you may or may not like, when you can look however you want using orange gear?

 

As I understand it, Armomech should be able to craft orange "shells", but those shells are completely worthless without the mods that go into them, so once I have the look that I like, being able to craft shells isn't going o be worth any more than being able to craft blue and green gear that I can't equip without changing my look in a potentially negative way.

 

That being the case, Armormech needs a significant change under the current sysem. Either A: they need the ability to make mods, so that an Armormech capable of making level 15 chest pieces can ALSO make the mods that would make an orange chestpiece equally as strong, OR B: there needs to be a better appearance modification system in place that is largely gear-independent, so that a player can equip a level 15 blue or green piece of Armormech armor, take advantage of those stats, without having it mess up his look.

[Archangelis]

Thats what Cybertech does, cant have it always im afraid....

[Ohoni]

So you're saying that Cybertech should be the only useful crafting skill and that Armormech should be completely useless? I haven't used Armstech or Artificing in a couple builds, but can they still make mods for their own stuff?

[ColonelKer-Nal]

Artificing is all mods.

[Ohoni]

So Artificing will still be useful under the current system, so it's just Armormech, Armstech, and Synthweaving that are obsolete and should be ignored? Edited December 18, 2011 by Ohoni

[ColonelKer-Nal]

Look, I'm a huge fan of making my character look how I want them to look. I play CoH, and a good part of that is for the character creator.

 

But you're being a bit unreasonable about this. You've got a burr under your saddle over the fact that there's no Appearance Tab, and that it doesn't look like there's going to be one.

 

Roll an alt, take Cybertech/Artifice, make mods, mail them to yourself. Sell some on the market, too.

 

It's not a perfect system, but it will work.

 

Frankly, it should be easier for the other crafts to make items with mod slots. Then everyone is more dependent on each other (and therefore the market).

Edited December 18, 2011 by ColonelKer-Nal

[Saldrex]

From what i remember of it as far as gear goes

 

Armstech - guns, barrels (an item part that determines the levels of guns)

Artifice - Lightsabers, generators, hilts (an item part that determines the levels of melee weapons), enhancements

Cybertech - Droid armror, mods, armoring (an item part that determines the levels of armor)

Armormech - non jedi armor

Synthweaving - jedi armor

Slicing - augments

 

I am not sure if there is any way to get an augment slot in gear outside of critical crafting yet so armormech and synth weaving might be the only way to use augments.

 

Being able to remove mods might really destroy their value.

Edited December 18, 2011 by Saldrex

[Archangelis]

Sorry but you seem to have forgotten this is an MMO, and iv yet to see an MMO where you dont rely upon one of the other crafting/resource gathering skills to supplement your skill choices.

 

If you got your wish, you would be totally self sufficient and have no need to trade with other players, thus making the economy of the game pointless. And if that happened we would all have huge amounts of credits to spend on very little

[ColonelKer-Nal]

Stuff and nonsense.

 

You can roll 8 characters on a server. You could easily become self sufficient, crafting wise. it would just take a little time.

[Ohoni]

 

Roll an alt, take Cybertech/Artifice, make mods, mail them to yourself. Sell some on the market, too.

 

That solves my problem, sure, but it doesn't solve the problem I was talking about, namely "what's the point of Armsmech?" Your solution is a way that people can advance while completely ignoring Armsmech as a viable crew skill, but it does nothing to fix Armsmech itself. Are you just accepting of the fact that there is an entire crew skill tree that is designed around offering practically no benefit to the players that select it, much less to anyone else?

 

Armstech - guns, barrels (an item part that determines the levels of guns)

Artifice - Lightsabers, generators, hilts (an item part that determines the levels of melee weapons), enhancements

Cybertech - Droid armror, mods, armoring (an item part that determines the levels of armor)

Armormech - non jedi armor

Synthweaving - jedi armor

Slicing - augments

 

Yes, that's how it's meant to work, but the products produced by Armsmech aren't of any real value once people start getting access to crafted/looted/reward orange items. Even Armsmech is able to craft the core mod for their type, able to replace the barrels in orange weapons, Armsmech can't even make the core "Armoring" mods. It might be enough if they could do that much, and perhaps the "Enhancement" mods suitable to armor-wearing classes, but they should have something to offer beyond empty clothing "shells."

 

If you got your wish, you would be totally self sufficient and have no need to trade with other players, thus making the economy of the game pointless. And if that happened we would all have huge amounts of credits to spend on very little

 

I think that each crew skill should offer complete independence in one bracket. An Armsmech Trooper/Smuggler should be 100% independent when it comes to armor, they should never have to look anywhere else for their armoring needs. They should still need others for weapons, of course, and for stims, and all that other stuff. Likewise Synthweaving should keep a Jedi completely set for armor, Armsmech should keep a Trooper/Smuggler completely set for guns, Artificing should keep a Jedi completely set for sabers, etc.. You should be totally self sufficient in one way, but completely empty in another that you'd need to look elsewhere for.

 

You can roll 8 characters on a server. You could easily become self sufficient, crafting wise. it would just take a little time.

 

Which is also true.

Edited December 18, 2011 by Ohoni

[Saldrex]

I like how you quoted all but my last two sentences in which I talked about armormech and synthweaving possiblye being the only way to get augment slots and mobs being able to be taken out might make them equally valuable since you only ever need one armor or one mod.

[Slaign]

The armor crafting skills are not made obsolete by Orange items, in fact, they play an important role in their use. There are orange versions of every armor graphic in the game, however, most of those orange versions can only be crafted by their respective armor crafting skill. These schematics are discovered through Underworld Trading.

 

Crafted Armor also has it's place in the world. If you wear entirely orange items, that means you have to keep 32 Mod slots up to date in addition to your 6 non-visible slots. Add in critical crafting, and that's another 6 slots. Add items for those slots that may perhaps have more than one mod slot, and the number grows from there.

 

Meanwhile, crafted items can be produced with stats with as much or more variety than those of orange items, and they will require only one mod.

 

This means that in order to be outfitted in the most powerful crafted items with as many oranges as possible, you would need to get best in slot items for 44 slots. 47 if you dual wield.

 

In order to be outfitted in the very best crafted gear using normal items, you would only have to worry about 28 slots.

 

As there is no single profession that can provide all mod types, this means that Orange wearers would have to spend a significant amount of time or credits finding the appropriate mods.

 

Crafters who wear their own normal crafted gear need only seek outside assistance for the Augment item mod slot. They would, however, need to spend a great deal of time and money on acquiring materials, and reverse engineering to discover the items they want.

 

In the end, it all balances out.

 

For more information on how crafters can find such a wide variety of items to craft, refer to my guide on reverse engineering here: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=45866

 

You've inspired me to add a section on this to the guide, so I'll shout you out with a special thanks at the bottom, thank you.

[DarthVindictus]

That solves my problem, sure, but it doesn't solve the problem I was talking about, namely "what's the point of Armsmech?" Your solution is a way that people can advance while completely ignoring Armsmech as a viable crew skill, but it does nothing to fix Armsmech itself. Are you just accepting of the fact that there is an entire crew skill tree that is designed around offering practically no benefit to the players that select it, much less to anyone else?

 

 

 

Yes, that's how it's meant to work, but the products produced by Armsmech aren't of any real value once people start getting access to crafted/looted/reward orange items. Even Armsmech is able to craft the core mod for their type, able to replace the barrels in orange weapons, Armsmech can't even make the core "Armoring" mods. It might be enough if they could do that much, and perhaps the "Enhancement" mods suitable to armor-wearing classes, but they should have something to offer beyond empty clothing "shells."

 

 

 

I think that each crew skill should offer complete independence in one bracket. An Armsmech Trooper/Smuggler should be 100% independent when it comes to armor, they should never have to look anywhere else for their armoring needs. They should still need others for weapons, of course, and for stims, and all that other stuff. Likewise Synthweaving should keep a Jedi completely set for armor, Armsmech should keep a Trooper/Smuggler completely set for guns, Artificing should keep a Jedi completely set for sabers, etc.. You should be totally self sufficient in one way, but completely empty in another that you'd need to look elsewhere for.

 

 

 

Which is also true.

 

What you're asking for would make cybertech largely worthless in place of armormech. Artificing and Cybertech are supposed to be mod heavy crafting professions. As it is, cybertech losing barrels to armstech is a sore blow.

[Ohoni]

I like how you quoted all but my last two sentences in which I talked about armormech and synthweaving possiblye being the only way to get augment slots and mobs being able to be taken out might make them equally valuable since you only ever need one armor or one mod.

 

Modulator slots are nowhere near useful enough to justify the crew skill's existence. I've often replaced gear with modulator slots with superior gear without them, they're nice to have, given the option, but far from necessary, and far to uncommon to count on.

 

The armor crafting skills are not made obsolete by Orange items, in fact, they play an important role in their use. There are orange versions of every armor graphic in the game, however, most of those orange versions can only be crafted by their respective armor crafting skill. These schematics are discovered through Underworld Trading.

 

Yes, but this is essentially a "hair dressing" skill then. It's moderately useful, but not really. It's only useful for so long as you aren't comfortable with your look. Between levels 1 and 17 as a trooper, I had a couple of decent chest pieces, and a bunch of terrible ones that I had to suffer through because they had the best stats at the moment and there was no way to change my appearance while retaining those stats, but by level 17 I'd acquired a pretty good orange top. Are there better ones later? Probably, but I could live with this top through to 50 if nothing better happened to come along. I certainly wouldn't go well out of my way to get a different one.

 

I WILL need better stats though, better and better ones at each level I go, so while being able to craft orange "shells" is a nice side effect, it cannot possibly justify the skillset, it solves a potential desire, but does not solve any sort of need like stats do, and it's entirely possible to acquire all the orange gear you'll ever needby low levels and never have need of them again.

 

Now, if orange shells worked like "style"s in DCUO, where you could easily shift from look to look once you'd ever used them once, then I could see a purpose to it, where some players would want to acquire a huge wardrobe of different looks, but given the hassle and cost of stripping all the mods out of one shell to put into another, I don't see many players doing this on a casual basis.

 

Crafted Armor also has it's place in the world. If you wear entirely orange items, that means you have to keep 32 Mod slots up to date in addition to your 6 non-visible slots. Add in critical crafting, and that's another 6 slots. Add items for those slots that may perhaps have more than one mod slot, and the number grows from there.

 

First, if you want to maintain a consistent appearance, this is currently the ONLY way to do it, so whether it's a hassle or not is sadly unavoidable. Second, even if you don't care about your appearance, going the custom+mods route is still better, because while you need to collect "more things," mods are cheaper than full gear. You can buy a full set of Commendation mods (with stats of your choosing), for less than the cost of Commendation armor, for example.

 

They obviously can't make it too difficult to fully mod-up a fully-orange-geared character, because that's currently the ONLY option for appearance customization, so it needs to be fairly easy to manage.

 

 

For more information on how crafters can find such a wide variety of items to craft, refer to my guide on reverse engineering here: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=45866

 

I read that and it's a good guide, but Armormech is still highly impractical under the current systems.

[Slaign]

I'm sorry you feel that way, but you are mistaken about it being broken or useless. As per your argument involving cost, the costs level out to be about the same. Gear costs time and money to craft, yes, but so do mods. The difference is, crafters can invest this time and money into being able to produce the gear themselves, while modders must continually purchase new mods from other sources. Crafters investments can be capitalized upon by selling gear after they learn it, modders cannot say the same.

 

Both paths ARE viable, depending on what is important to you and what you are looking to get out of crafting. If you do not appreciate what Armormech offers you, change professions, but do not operate under the idea that it is fundamentally broken.

 

I wish you luck in whatever path you choose, but choose the path you find viable and stick to it. Don't try to change the other paths. If there truly is an imbalance, people will gravitate away from the broken skill, this will bear out in the metrics, BioWare will notice, and they will address it.

[nix_crash]

That solves my problem, sure, but it doesn't solve the problem I was talking about, namely "what's the point of Armsmech?"

 

cyberteck cant build armors, they are both worthless without the other.

[Ohoni]

I'm sorry you feel that way, but you are mistaken about it being broken or useless. As per your argument involving cost, the costs level out to be about the same. Gear costs time and money to craft, yes, but so do mods. The difference is, crafters can invest this time and money into being able to produce the gear themselves, while modders must continually purchase new mods from other sources.

 

But can't Cybertech produce mods? So if they can produce mods, that would make them the only crafting class anyone would need. Unless the mods they produce are sub-standard, in which case no crafting class would be needed.

 

And you could argue that crafting non-custom armor is cheaper, but that wouldn't be of any value if you didn't happen to like the appearance of the armor produced, because there's currently nothing that can be done to change the appearance of a green/blue/purple armor, only to change the stats of orange armor, so if the best armor an Armsmech can produce doesn't look good to the prospective owner, then it's not worth half as much as an empty orange shell.

 

Also, as for "selling your wares", it's actually much more money-efficient to go triple-gatherer and just sell the materials you find. I've made much more profits off of selling left-over materials after clearing a material tier than I ever did selling the items I could have made with those materials.

 

I wish you luck in whatever path you choose, but choose the path you find viable and stick to it. Don't try to change the other paths. If there truly is an imbalance, people will gravitate away from the broken skill, this will bear out in the metrics, BioWare will notice, and they will address it.

 

I'm saying that I picked Armormech, expecting that it would provide me with all the armor I'd need form 10-50, but I'm finding it already becoming obsolete by 20 because it isn't providing me any of the mods I need to keep my armor up to date.

[drakeborn]

But can't Cybertech produce mods? So if they can produce mods, that would make them the only crafting class anyone would need. Unless the mods they produce are sub-standard, in which case no crafting class would be needed.

 

Out of the mod types, Cybertechs only make Armor Mods and Mods. They cannot make Enhancement Mods, Hilts, Crystals, or Barrels.

[Slaign]

But can't Cybertech produce mods? So if they can produce mods, that would make them the only crafting class anyone would need. Unless the mods they produce are sub-standard, in which case no crafting class would be needed.

 

Cybertech can create armoring mods and modification mods, but not enhancement mods, hilt mods, barrel mods, crystal mods, or augment mods. Thus, you will need access to other mod makers (Artifice, Armstech, Slicing.) You will also need to buy the armor look you want from the armor makers, and if you ever find something you like better or get sick of what you're wearing, you will need to buy more from them. In that eventuality, you will need to either pay the removal costs on your mods (which I hear becomes very high, like 25k high, at upper levels) or buy new ones.

 

And you could argue that crafting non-custom armor is cheaper, but that wouldn't be of any value if you didn't happen to like the appearance of the armor produced, because there's currently nothing that can be done to change the appearance of a green/blue/purple armor, only to change the stats of orange armor, so if the best armor an Armsmech can produce doesn't look good to the prospective owner, then it's not worth half as much as an empty orange shell.

 

Not all people really care about looks if they can get the stats they want at a cheaper price. Also, orange shells are currently the most expensive item on my server's GTM.

 

Also, as for "selling your wares", it's actually much more money-efficient to go triple-gatherer and just sell the materials you find. I've made much more profits off of selling left-over materials after clearing a material tier than I ever did selling the items I could have made with those materials.

 

Actually, if you only care about credits, your best bet is 2 gathering skills and Slicing. But you will be spending all that money buying all the things you cannot make.

 

I'm saying that I picked Armormech, expecting that it would provide me with all the armor I'd need form 10-50, but I'm finding it already becoming obsolete by 20 because it isn't providing me any of the mods I need to keep my armor up to date.

 

If you RE up to Prototype levels, you will have the equivalent of orange gear with prototype mods. If you RE up to Artifact level, you will have the equivalent of orange gear with Artifact mods. Crafting Artifact gear is much easier than finding artifact mods. If you critical, the gear might be even better than an orange item since it can take an augment.

 

Neither method is fast, but fortunately there is no need to use gear of that quality to level in.

Edited December 18, 2011 by Slaign

[Ohoni]

What you're asking for would make cybertech largely worthless in place of armormech. Artificing and Cybertech are supposed to be mod heavy crafting professions. As it is, cybertech losing barrels to armstech is a sore blow.

 

I see your point, but I see Cybertech as more of a jack of all trades. They should be able to make mods for BOTH armor AND weapons, while being able to produce "cores" for neither. They can also produce "accessories" that neither of the others can craft. Can't they made droid armors, ear pieces, speeders, and other nifty gadgets?

 

cyberteck cant build armors, they are both worthless without the other.

 

A Cybertech can't build armors, but they only need one Orange armor per slot, even level 10 ones, and they're set for life, able to stock those armors with the mods needed to keep them up to date. They don't even have to get that shell from a crafter, by level 17 I'd earned two orange chests and an orange weapon through mission rewards. An Armor crafter, on the other hand, may be able to craft way more shells than he'd ever need, but he couldn't craft any of the mods needed to keep them up to date, so he'd need mod crafters at every level range to keep that armor up to date.

 

Out of the mod types, Cybertechs only make Armor Mods and Mods. They cannot make Enhancement Mods, Hilts, Crystals, or Barrels.

 

So basically,

 

a Cybertech Trooper would need to go to an Artificer to get Enhancement and Color Crystals, and an Armstech for Barrels.

 

a Cybertech Jedi would just need to go to an Artificer to get Enhancement and Color Crystals.

 

an Armstech Trooper would need to go to an Artificer to get Enhancement and Color Crystals, and a Cybertech for Armoring and mods.

 

an Artificing Jedi would just need to go to a Cybertech for Armoring and mods.

 

an Armormech Trooper would need to go to an Artificer to get Enhancement and Color Crystals, and a Cybertech for Armoring and mods, AND an Armstech for Barrels.

 

None of them need an Armsmech for anything except maybe armor shells, and they only ever need one of those in their lifetime, which they can probably get through other means easier.

 

Balanced?

 

Actually, if you only care about credits, your best bet is 2 gathering skills and Slicing. But you will be spending all that money buying all the things you cannot make.

 

Maybe at some point it'll be that way. I know for a fact that my characters with slicing have been better equipped and had thicker wallets than my characters with a core crafting skill maxed out above their own level. Yes, you need to buy more stuff along the way, but not by nearly as much as you save from not having to run crew missions and from being able to sell the crafting materials you collect. The actual crafting trade is a bit of a sucker's market at the moment.

 

If you RE up to Prototype levels, you will have the equivalent of orange gear with prototype mods.

 

But that's only if you like the look of the crafted armor you're REing. If you like the look of an orange you already own, there's nothing an Armormech can do it improve upon it. I haven't really come across a crafting recipe that I've like the look enough to go through the painful slog to artifact level on it. Also, I didn't think you could apply Armoring mods to purple gear, so a few levels later and it'd be worthless.

 

Your arguments in favor of the current system seem to be taking place in a game that has a functioning appearance management system, because I would TOTALLY agree with you if the gear were more like DCUO where you could equip the very strongest gear possible AND the very best looking gear at the same time, without having to choose between the two, but given that this game lacks such a system, it's not about the strongest possible gear at any given time, it's about the strongest possible gear that you can stand to look at, and orange gear is far more consistent at that, providing gear that once you find a look you like, you can keep it until you find something better, while keeping it consistently upgraded to, if not quite the best level, at least a decent level.

[Saldrex]

None of them need an Armsmech for anything except maybe armor shells, and they only ever need one of those in their lifetime, which they can probably get through other means easier.

 

Well so far from what I have seen, many armor / weapon mods can be purchased through accomidations. Many mods can be taken off gear. Mods are obtainable other ways like shells can be.

 

If you keep wanting to play the useless game, raid gear will probably wipe out most professions as they do in other games. If they have mods that can be removed and are higher than a cyberteck, they can be moved to your shell if they want the look. Cyberteck mods may or may not be the best in game and best in game is not always what people go for first.

[Slaign]

Wrong, my arguments do not assume an appearance system (Aside from the already awesome orange system we have, I like that we have to put real effort into maintaining a custom appearance.)

 

It is merely that your arguments over assume the importance of appearance to your average player. It's not nearly so important to everyone.

 

Also, while I may have to replace my armor every few levels, you will have to replace 3-4 mods in every one of those slots every few levels, making you worse off. Especially since I can craft my own armor, and you will have to buy most of your mods.

 

Finally, if appearance is that important to you, you would be crazy to think you will want to stick with ONE appearance for life. If appearance gives you kicks, then you will want to change it up and find new styles often. Armor crafting skills give you the best opportunity to do this through orange crafting. If you wish to buy your shells, you will have to play the prices armor crafters set, which will be high because there are a huge number of schematics, and they are obtained rarely and randomly.

 

I'm sorry if you find the system frustrating. No matter what path you choose, it will be incredibly complex. However, everyone relies upon everyone, and for us hardcore crafters, it's a lot of fun.

 

The problem you are facing in understanding the value of your profession is understanding the needs of players that go beyond the needs that you personally feel.

 

If you honestly believe players won't ever buy new styles once they have a set of oranges, you are wrong. If you believe that there won't constantly be a supply of new alts and new players to sell to, you are wrong. If you think that most players will be satisfied with the orange items they receive from quests and commendations, you are wrong. If you think that there is not a large market of players who prefer the ease of premade gear to the hassle of mods regardless of appearance, you are wrong.

Edited December 18, 2011 by Slaign

[Lokai]

Look, I'm a huge fan of making my character look how I want them to look. I play CoH, and a good part of that is for the character creator.

 

But you're being a bit unreasonable about this. You've got a burr under your saddle over the fact that there's no Appearance Tab, and that it doesn't look like there's going to be one.

 

Roll an alt, take Cybertech/Artifice, make mods, mail them to yourself. Sell some on the market, too.

 

It's not a perfect system, but it will work.

 

Frankly, it should be easier for the other crafts to make items with mod slots. Then everyone is more dependent on each other (and therefore the market).

 

nah i think he's right, all armor crafting professions are nice for leveling beyond that they fall flat, and is MOSTLY because cant make mods at all for there profession. I think what should have been done is to make cybertech a more engineery style profession with bombs, gadgets and other fun goodies that are more combat and non-combat oriented. Explosives, charges, small droids, and retain its droid mods. While all armor mods SHOULD have been in armor itself...

 

That said are plenty will want the modable armor sets so can still make cash, but certainly not going to do what i had hoped... but as far as leveling goes! armor crafts are rather good, since can keep yourself and your companions all decked out but he is right about armor crafts feeling sub-par.

 

Edit: further getting modable sets with your crafts are rare difficult... and addionally yes looks are actually quite important to a vast majority of players believe it or not, looking like everyone else of same level as yourself is terrible terrible game design! which is why to this day i /facepalm as to why bioware changed the moding system making 90% of gear unmodable really killed looking how want aspect of the game.

Edited December 18, 2011 by Lokai

[Slaign]

nah i think he's right, all armor crafting professions are nice for leveling beyond that they fall flat, and is MOSTLY because cant make mods at all for there profession. I think what should have been done is to make cybertech a more engineery style profession with bombs, gadgets and other fun goodies that are more combat and non-combat oriented. Explosives, charges, small droids, and retain its droid mods. While all armor mods SHOULD have been in armor itself...

 

That said are plenty will want the moddable armor sets so can still make cash, but certainly not going to do what i had hoped... but as far as leveling goes! armor crafts are rather good, since can keep yourself and your companions all decked out but he is right about armor crafts feeling sub-par.

 

Orange shells will sell for prices much higher than individual mods, helping to even it out. Still, in the end, if you are concerned about credits, selecting a crafting skill at all is foolish. Crafting skills are not about making money, it's about having fun and providing for yourself, which armor crafters can do quite well. They can also provide for their companions, a great point you brought up. I doubt people want to manage mods on all their companions as well! Also, appearance is less important while leveling up, so alts and new players will prefer the simplicity of purchasing premade armors and waiting to use shells and mods til the end game, where they wont be quickly replaced.

[Frenor]

Armormech makes armor. This incluces custom armor. Armor that people who care about appearances will go after. Armor that you can sell for ATLEAST 4-5 times the value of its purple version BECAUSE it can be modded.

 

That is the pont of Armormech, you are a outfitter of completed goods or shells for aestheticly intrigued folks.