PvP Vs. PVE Why?

[Soljin]

This question has bugged me forever... Why is it that the PvE and PvP communities always divide and pit themselves against eachother? I would like to hear any true reasons, rather then angst, or I dont like one or the other so I chose a side!

 

There really doesnt have to be a side..All this rivalry really achieves is slowing down progress of games...

 

Please dont turn this into a "I dont want some PVE or PvP noob blowing up my content with their Gear" arguement.

 

I was hoping to hear some real opinions as to what people think they gain by Impeding the other side by way of voting down bonuses/Changes for one or the other.

 

Its my opinion that this and many other MMO's would advance greatly if this divide was not present, and the community worked from an unbias position...Kinda like if everyone played all aspects and enjoyed them equally (I know it doesnt happen that way).

[xandax]

This question has bugged me forever... Why is it that the PvE and PvP communities always divide and pit themselves against eachother? I would like to hear any true reasons, rather then angst, or I dont like one or the other so I chose a side!

<snip>

 

Two fold; But actually very simple.

 

The interests of PvE and PvP often goes against each others and therefore it becomes a 'battle for resources' (developer time).

PvE buffs or nerfs hits PvP players and vice versa is one simple example of this.

 

The other comes down to human nature of simply feeling superior by putting down somebody else choice. Therefore the entire 'carebear' line of argumentation from some.

 

There's nothing complex in this. It's like everything else that polarises. Apple vs. Microsoft. Manchester United vs. Manchester City. Red Steaks vs. Medium Steaks. etc

Edited May 14, 2012 by xandax

[TheBBP]

Most class buffs/nerfs/rebalances and major changes and the cries for them come PVPers and the devs trying to answer by the neverending chase to balance PVP. This does not sit well with PVEers.

[Gruug]

The only answer (if you are truly looking for one) is that people are passionate about what they enjoy. If they are not envolved in one aspect of the game (any game) they will just ignore it as having any form of importance. This is the reason that it is a difficult task for the dev team. They are always going to be trying to please on group or another. I for one just wish the devs would stick to THEIR ideas of what makes a good game and make it so.

[kitsinni]

There will always be people who think that PvP gear is to good in PvE or vice versa, the argument being that I put in X amount of effort in PvP/PvE to get my gear and the person that did the other should not be good at what I do. Another issue is, and let me start by saying PvP is what I mostly do in this game, PvP players tend to be jerks and hate on anyone and everyone yelling carebear this and carebear that. You also have the PvP players that cry that PvE servers are so easy and that PvP servers are for the real players that want a challenge, those are usually the guys you see stealthed at level 50 attacking level 15's looking to do quests.

 

If I had to boil it all down to one solild reason it is because this is the internet and people will always complain about everything, they will always divide themselves and talk bad about the other "side" no matter what.

[Soljin]

So what I am getting out of this is....On multiple levels PvP, and PvE are linked and as such effect eachother (not always in a good way). As a result rather then band together and try to rectify said issues or Nerfs/Rebalances as a community..People choose to polarize and attack eachothers interest.

 

I would pose the idea that this scenario would more then likely result in a rebound Nerf/Rebalance if the backlash to the developer is not from a "whole" community view...So once again its not helping.

 

So the answer to this is regardlesss of its effect people will continue to War against the other playstyle because it is not their own..and has potential to negatively effect them.

 

I suppose my question is answered..But I dont like it

[kitsinni]

So what I am getting out of this is....On multiple levels PvP, and PvE are linked and as such effect eachother (not always in a good way). As a result rather then band together and try to rectify said issues or Nerfs/Rebalances as a community..People choose to polarize and attack eachothers interest.

 

I would pose the idea that this scenario would more then likely result in a rebound Nerf/Rebalance if the backlash to the developer is not from a "whole" community view...So once again its not helping.

 

So the answer to this is regardlesss of its effect people will continue to War against the other playstyle because it is not their own..and has potential to negatively effect them.

 

I suppose my question is answered..But I dont like it

 

Same as politics or anything else in the world. People will always go against their best interests if it means they can be against people they decided are on a different team for whatever reason.

[ThiborF]

This question has bugged me forever... Why is it that the PvE and PvP communities always divide and pit themselves against eachother? I would like to hear any true reasons, rather then angst, or I dont like one or the other so I chose a side!

 

There really doesnt have to be a side..All this rivalry really achieves is slowing down progress of games...

 

Please dont turn this into a "I dont want some PVE or PvP noob blowing up my content with their Gear" arguement.

 

I was hoping to hear some real opinions as to what people think they gain by Impeding the other side by way of voting down bonuses/Changes for one or the other.

 

Its my opinion that this and many other MMO's would advance greatly if this divide was not present, and the community worked from an unbias position...Kinda like if everyone played all aspects and enjoyed them equally (I know it doesnt happen that way).

 

Because developers create the split in the first place.

Aside from the difference of AI vs. live player, PvE and PvP do not need to be different. But for several years now, creating differences has been at the core of developer choices ... different abilities, specs, gear, stats, etc. with aspects of these that favor one play style over the other.

 

And then you have the inevitable nerfs to things that are commonalities between the two and folks who predominantly play one style of the other are miffed because their characters are affected by areas of the game they don't engage in.

 

And last you have people that tend to avoid one of the two. Some PvE'ers will cite they dislike the general attitudes you tend to find in PvP content of the game. Conversely, PvP'ers tend to cite that scripted content is boring.

*shrug* It takes all kinds and even if a developer came along with a game with perfect mix and design of PvE and PvP, you will have players that are largely playing only of the two types ... not because the other isn't well designed but simply because that style doesn't appeal to them.

You can think of it this way ... Civilization V is one of the best strategy games every made for the PC. BUT, if turn based strategy games aren't your thing, you're still not going to enjoy it.

[psandak]

I think another aspect of the issue is the developers' own doing - in many MMOs PvE is the focus and PvP is sort of tacked on (and there are MMOs with just the opposite paradigm). Then the PvP centric players sign up because there is some form of PvP and it rarely measures up to their expectations. So they rail against the developers pushing them to work on PvP when the focus of the game is supposed to be PvE.

 

Companies like Blizzard and BioWare hope their games appeal to as wide an audience as possible. To this end, they throw as many features into a pot and hope it works out. The problems are first, it never does and second, when you try to please everyone you end up pleasing no one. And then they are stuck with these two fairly diametrically opposed play styles.

[TitusVorenus]

As someone who does PvE and PvP with equal fervor (and, if I do say so myself, with equal skill), I can say it's just all about attitudes.

 

I knew plenty of PvPers who just find PvE content lame. To them, they could care less about the stories, about the lore, about the look of the gear--they just want to kick *** and take names.. I know PvPers who have never even seen Star Wars. and at least one Smuggler in my guild got all the way to 50 without even unlocking his starship because he just did PvP the entire time.

 

Does this make them jerks? No. Does this make them idiots? No. They just happen not to care.

 

I also know PvE people who find PvP repetitive and could care less about being able to "defeat" someone who just clones back 10 seconds later, every single time. I know PvE people who are annoyed that Mon Calamari are in this game when they shouldn't even be discovered until the Empire of Palpatine, and PvE people who run Maelstrom Prison over again just to get screenshots of Revan.

 

Does this make them weak? No. Does this make them dorks? Well, sure, ok, maybe, but hell I'm a dork too.

 

 

The thing that bugs me is that most PvPers assume that people who like to do PvE are cowards or aren't "teh 1337 enuff" to constantly PvP. As it is, in my experience the most ferocious open-world PvP I've seen in the game was with RPers on a RP-PvP server--because they actually care about their characters and about who wins the battle.

Edited May 14, 2012 by TitusVorenus

[Jalez]

In Dark Age of Camelot the PvE and PvP communities HAD to coexist, if you wanted the best gear for PvP you HAD to get it from doing Endgame PvE and from Crafters.

 

On the flip side, if your Faction was about to lose a relic, or you had lost too many keeps(castles) then your faction had NO ACCESS to Darkness Falls, the Endgame PvE/PvP Dungeon until you got bak out there and PvP'd to get your keeps back. So PvE players HAD to participate in PvP if they wanted access to the best PvE dungeon in the game.

 

Why.MMOs have regressed over the years is simple, WoW "dumbed down" the market and created a divide between PvE and PvP, something that Guild Wars 2 is fixing as that game will be PvP/PvE intertwined, just like DAoC.

Edited May 14, 2012 by Jalez

[Vindigore]

In mentality, they are too much alike. PvPers tend to follow the "pwn you" approach by beating others, PvErs follow the "pwn" approach by comparing achievements/titles that have acquired for completing a raid. PvPers, use the ranking system (when there is one) to show off their superior "skillz", PvErs use the tier xx gear to show off their superiority over other players.

 

It's all about that primitive instinct of egoism. Both groups want to establish their superiority over the rest of the players. In the very old days, this happened by being the best hunter & by bringing the most food to the clan (the alpha-male), later, personal wealth played the role of distinguishing one from the other. In modern games, there is this e-sport / e-peen competition that tenders our egoism.

 

Back on subject : I think the only difference between the two is that PvE "wins" are against a scripted non-human element while PvP is player against player and thus, any mockery is taken much more seriously. (It's another thing to be called incompetent because you can't beat a well written (or not) script and it's totally different to be called "loser" by the guy that just beat you in a battle).

[Asturias]

This question has bugged me forever... Why is it that the PvE and PvP communities always divide and pit themselves against eachother? I would like to hear any true reasons, rather then angst, or I dont like one or the other so I chose a side!

 

There really doesnt have to be a side..All this rivalry really achieves is slowing down progress of games...

 

Please dont turn this into a "I dont want some PVE or PvP noob blowing up my content with their Gear" arguement.

 

I was hoping to hear some real opinions as to what people think they gain by Impeding the other side by way of voting down bonuses/Changes for one or the other.

 

Its my opinion that this and many other MMO's would advance greatly if this divide was not present, and the community worked from an unbias position...Kinda like if everyone played all aspects and enjoyed them equally (I know it doesnt happen that way).

 

Its simple, "Its all about gear progression". A PvP player who specializes in PvP looks to progress in that aspect of the game while a PVEer progress to complete end game MOBS/Dungeons, ect......

 

I for one understand why both argue, if a Player takes the route of a PvPer than there gear should be better suited for PvP play and the same goes for a PVEer.

[Andryah]

This question has bugged me forever... Why is it that the PvE and PvP communities always divide and pit themselves against eachother?

 

The actual issue is larger then PvE vs PvP.

 

In MMOs, it has long been in vogue for one segment of the player base that wants an MMO to go in a particular direction to rant/attack/deride other segments that do not agree.

 

It is the nature of MMO players to take advantage of internet annonymity to be rude, whiny, ranty, and verbally aggressive toward other MMO player segments and MMO developers.

 

Core issue...... SELFISH and SELF CENTERED players.

[Sirsri]

Because PVP and PVE are essentially different games, with different rulesets stuck on top of each other.

 

PVE players wouldn't be too happy if by far the easiest way to obtain the best gear for PVE was via PVP, nor the reverse. Which, if you've played WoW, occasionally has happened.

 

The rulesets for each do conflict. If you could CC a person in a warzone for a minute that would be a fairly serious problem, but being able to CC an NPC for a minute is perfectly sensible. So now you end up with abilities that behave differently in different situations, which can be confusing, it's also not so easy when those abilities are less obvious what to do about them. Armour debufffs for example, that reduce armour by say 30% on a player (especially a player in something like medium armour) might increase the damage they take by ~50%, but on an NPC with 'heavy' armour (and all NPC's would have heavy armour for example) by 25%. That creates bizarre and confusing mechanics to know what does what, to whom, where. And nerfing it for one thing negatively impacts another.

[GnatB]

Because PvP and PvE are two separate game styles, requiring completely different games, and any attempt to really try to combine the two is doomed to failure?

 

And since both PvP and PvE players like the general basis of THIS game, we're both hoping "our side" wins out in the end?

[Lheim]

Because PvP and PvE are two separate game styles, requiring completely different games, and any attempt to really try to combine the two is doomed to failure?

 

That's a tired old dogma.

 

Seperating out PvP gear and PvE gear, for instance.. what does it do, except punish the fair lot of players who prefer one style over the other, yet like to dabble occasionally on the other side of the fence?

 

No, you can't do that. Unless you dedicate 100% of your time to gearing your character for your specific side of the game, you're going to be laughably ineffective at both. And failing because gear holds you back - not skill, GEAR - is disheartening and awful.

 

So the devs build in this social engineering that forces you to PICK - and then they look at their demographics, see most people sticking fairly exclusively to one side or the other, and believe in the truth of that divide.

 

SWTOR actually has a rather awesome system - weak/standard/strong mobs, and spells that affect each differently, with players counting as 'strong'. That says to me, mechanics-wise, there's nothing wrong with the theory of jamming them together.

Edited May 14, 2012 by Lheim

[psandak]

In Dark Age of Camelot the PvE and PvP communities HAD to coexist, if you wanted the best gear for PvP you HAD to get it from doing Endgame PvE and from Crafters.

 

On the flip side, if your Faction was about to lose a relic, or you had lost too many keeps(castles) then your faction had NO ACCESS to Darkness Falls, the Endgame PvE/PvP Dungeon until you got bak out there and PvP'd to get your keeps back. So PvE players HAD to participate in PvP if they wanted access to the best PvE dungeon in the game.

 

Why.MMOs have regressed over the years is simple, WoW "dumbed down" the market and created a divide between PvE and PvP, something that Guild Wars 2 is fixing as that game will be PvP/PvE intertwined, just like DAoC.

 

The problem with intertwining PvE and PvP is that there are segments of both that do not want to do the other. Dedicated PvPers (all they want to do is PvP) are going to resent HAVING to do PvE. And Dedicated PvEers (all they want to do is PvE) are going to resent HAVING to do PvP.

 

Blizzard tried intertwining the two in the Burning Crusade expansion and it sort of worked to a point. The PvP aspect of the world content only provided a small buff to PvE content (small damage dealt and XP bonus to the side that controlled the PvP stuff as well as a currency obtained off PvE bosses if you controlled the PvP stuff), but it was not "required" for one side to control the PvP stuff for the PvEers to do their content. The only issue was that once everyone who cared got the stuff they wanted by controlling the PvP stuff, they stopped caring about it. Further, with content patches came better equipment so the currency was no longer desired.

 

In the two expansions since they scrapped that idea and went with a PvP zone where the controller had access to a raid instance. Nice thing about it was the control was contested every two hours and (at least on my server) control bounced back and forth, so no side was completely deprived of access.

 

That's a tired old dogma.

 

Seperating out PvP gear and PvE gear, for instance.. what does it do, except punish the fair lot of players who prefer one style over the other, yet like to dabble occasionally on the other side of the fence?

 

No, you can't do that. Unless you dedicate 100% of your time to gearing your character for your specific side of the game, you're going to be laughably ineffective at both. And failing because gear holds you back - not skill, GEAR - is disheartening and awful.

 

So the devs build in this social engineering that forces you to PICK - and then they look at their demographics, see most people sticking fairly exclusively to one side or the other, and believe in the truth of that divide.

 

SWTOR actually has a rather awesome system - weak/standard/strong mobs, and spells that affect each differently, with players counting as 'strong'. That says to me, mechanics-wise, there's nothing wrong with the theory of jamming them together.

 

However, there is something to be said for participating in "the other side" and not HAVING to be the best at it. So long as you enjoy the experience, who cares if you are max geared for "the other side"? Yes, having "the right gear" and "the right spec" will increase the likelihood of success and would probably influence your enjoyment, but that by no means translates into HAVE TO.

[Lheim]

Yes, having "the right gear" and "the right spec" will increase the likelihood of success and would probably influence your enjoyment, but that by no means translates into HAVE TO.

 

Unfortunately, expertise gear - just like the pvp gear in WoW, has such a vast effect on success or failure in PvP that a person with significantly less of it stands a microscopic chance of winning any encounter against an expertise-geared pvp vet - regardless of skill or caution.

 

The effect of it is too large. It's not a bonus, it's a necessity in the level 50 bracket - and you can't get that gear by 'dabbling'.

 

The dogma says that you simply have to put in your time - suck donkey for two weeks or whatever, after which you will begin to fight on even terms. I'd rather just stick to PvE than deliberately subject myself to torture for a couple weeks.

 

I'd like to point out that this gear dependance directly contradicts what the SWTOR devs stated in their pre-release hype - that boosting would even folks out to about 10/20% of each other, gear having the rest of that effect - so that skill would determine success, with gear as a fairly nice bonus.

Edited May 14, 2012 by Lheim

[GnatB]

That's a tired old dogma.

 

True though. At least when we're limiting the scope to PvE RPG. RPG's are all about character based progression, ability, and skill. And any reasonably good PvP game puts all that in the garbage heap, and it's all about PLAYER ability and skill.

[Leiralei]

Yea I don't understand the gear divide. I mean, if you're in a dungeon, why should you care that the guy next to you got his gear in pvp as long as he can pull his weight in the raid? If you're going into a match of pvp, wouldn't you want your team to live long enough to maybe conquer an objective even if they got their gear from doing pve?

 

People whine when it's easier to gear up for pve through doing pvp or vice versa. Well, pvp isn't that easy compared to most scripted encounters, so maybe the rewards should be commensurate. And a noob in pvp is gonna need every advantage they can get so if raid gear helps out then why not?

 

To separate the two systems is more divisive of the community than anything else. On the other hand, you need different abilities in pvp than vs boss fights, because it's a different type of fight.

 

It's when you want bragging rights over your TEAMMATES that this artificially created divide is a problem. Because we should all be thankful when our teammates are geared and ready for the encounter, not selfishly mad because they got their gear in a different venue.

 

Making pvp and pve gear different just puts up barriers to entry to the other part of the game.

 

TLDR: Who cares how your teammates got their gear as long as they got your back in the fight? C'mon. This is your team here.

[uniz]

in any game with both you will always get competition between the two.

 

this is most appearant for obtaining gear. typically in a pvp warfront everyone wins. even if one loses the warfront you get something toward getting your gear. in pve you only get gear if the boss is killed. which play style do you think attracts the less skilled player to get his top end gear? you can die your way to the top pvp rank/gear and no one cares. you cant keep dieing in a raid though as people do care when you are preventing them from getting thier gear. this has lead to elistism on both sides with competion as to which is the better player once the highest ranked gear is being struted about.

 

wow was the first mmo which had pvp and pve on all its servers. in doing so it created a pvp environment where they used the same abilities for both inwhich, as other posters have stated, changing those for pvp "balance" issues affected pve. this in itself caused a major division between the two with competition as to which side should be listened to and followed.

 

for the most part it is two seperate games in the same mmo which uses the same abilities (doesnt have to) and resources. both sides are competing for these with neither really winning as content cant be added fast enough for both.

 

when you have both you will always have competition between the two be it gear, abilities, or additional content. very few mmos out there have the resources to do a good balancing act. these resources are time, money and talent. some mmos inherient structure makes doing so a strain on these. this game is a example.

 

 

.

[Sotof]

I find it pointless to use developer resources on PvP. It does not add anything to the game at all.

[psandak]

I find it pointless to use developer resources on PvP. It does not add anything to the game at all.

 

That is just your opinion. In a game where you have "opposing sides" (WoW - alliance and horde, SWTOR - republic and empire, etc), in general, players want those two sides to interact. If there is no interaction why have two sides? Why not just allow players to play one side or the other and have the non-player side wholly controlled by the AI?

 

In EQ1 there were good and evil races and they grouped together freely (with some limited consequences - evil race characters usually became hated by their capital cities and could not return). But in games like WoW and SWTOR the good vs evil aspect is a lot stronger; could you really accept a sith warrior and a jedi knight fighting side-by-side in a FP or OP?

[Prenavo]

My opinion:

Make all pvp gear only usable in pvp. That means pvp gear only on pvp servers, warzones, and areas that are specifically for pvp ie. Illum and the little area on Tat.

Why?

I've noticed that on our server, a lot of people tend to pvp only for the gear. Once they have what they want they poof. Pvp'ers loose people and at the same time, so do the pve'ers. This is especially true in the lower levels around lvl 20 or so. I think people would rather just go pvp to get some gear that is useable in pve than go run a flashpoint. Another reason people want that pvp armor is because the artwork on some of it is amazing. Why did we not get the cool artwork for some of the flashpoint stuff? Black Hole gear looks totally lame compared to some of the pvp stuff. I just think things should change. I love to do both. Pvp and Pve, but I notice that on my server, most people only want to pvp and this is a pve server.

I'm not speaking for all servers, only the one I'm on. I'm probably wrong about wanting this change, but I believe there is a reason alot of other games seperate the two gear styles.