Uzzzi Posted May 13, 2012 Share Posted May 13, 2012 Gidoru: Currently in Huttball, certain classes have huge advantages, to the point where, without them, you have a considerably lesser chance of winning. The classes I speak of are namely Sages, Guardians, and their Imperial counterparts that are able to leap and pull across the map granting great mobility. Any chance of changes that prevent the ball carrier from using abilities like leap or being pulled? Gabe Amatangelo (PvP & Endgame Designer): It is something we considered early in development of the map. However, we aimed to ensure every class had a role as opposed to effectively turning classes off when they carry the ball. Granted, some of those roles are not as obvious or have a steeper learning curve than simply getting the ball over the line (i.e. controlling the middle, cover defense, controlling hazard lines, etc.). The team composition win ratios suggest those roles are playing out for the most part. For example, teams with all Sages and Guardians do not even appear in the top 100 win ratios and the composition with the highest win ratios include a fairly even distribution of Advanced Classes. That, of course, is not an absolute conclusion, especially considering full team compositions rely on matchmaking. We’ll pay close attention to the variance in composition win ratio considering rating when full team queuing is enabled. What role did you have in mind for the "light" DPS Merc spec in Hutball? Before you answer that consider a class with more utility which could easily do the same thing. I believe the "light" DPS Merc spec to be the anti hutball and would like to see an option in the future to remove hutball (or any WZ for that matter) from the players que. So when I que up I can basically say " I DO NOT want to be pulled into a hutball match" There are other obvious problems with his post but discussion of them would be off topic and give my already negative post a reason to be deleted. Anyone other Mercs see a problem with his statement? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darthtrunkmonkey Posted May 13, 2012 Share Posted May 13, 2012 i have no issue being in a huttball match, especially when you focus on the strengths of the merc whether your arsenal or pyro, stay in the middle and pick off stragglers or help stun/burst the ball carriers, or even help your teams ball carrier get out of the middle to a passing position then go back to your middle ground. this seems to work out best for my merc, idk about yours so. basically play to your toons strengths and weaknesses. thats all i got to make sense of how stupid this post was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uzzzi Posted May 13, 2012 Author Share Posted May 13, 2012 (edited) i have no issue being in a huttball match, especially when you focus on the strengths of the merc whether your arsenal or pyro, stay in the middle and pick off stragglers or help stun/burst the ball carriers, or even help your teams ball carrier get out of the middle to a passing position then go back to your middle ground. this seems to work out best for my merc, idk about yours so. basically play to your toons strengths and weaknesses. thats all i got to make sense of how stupid this post was. Like I said consider a class that has actual "utility" and could do the same thing as your merc then take his statement "However, we aimed to ensure every class had a role as opposed to effectively turning classes off when they carry the ball. Granted, some of those roles are not as obvious or have a steeper learning curve than simply getting the ball over the line (i.e. controlling the middle, cover defense, controlling hazard lines, etc.)". Edited May 13, 2012 by Uzzzi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wargonglok Posted May 13, 2012 Share Posted May 13, 2012 lol, i read the original post, and all i can say is, teams of full guardians or sages can beat teams of operatives in hutball now if you remember, teams of operatives are the reason operatives got nerfed, so will sages and guardians get nerfed to the ground? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macroecon Posted May 14, 2012 Share Posted May 14, 2012 The main problem with Gabe's response is that once again he has been fooled by his system's stat collection methodology. Don't get me wrong, ToR's ingame stat collection ability has advanced the state of the art for MMOs. But the interpretation of said statistics by humans can be, and has been for this game, severely flawed. Gabe states that, "teams with all Sages and Guardians do not even appear in the top 100 win ratios". That might seem like a conclusive result. But it isn't because it doesn't control for player quality. If I form the best possible team from a pool of players that I have on my friends list and/or guild list, I can make a GREAT Huttball team. If I form the best possible team from a that same pool and restrict them only to Sage/Sorc and Guardian/Jugg, I will be using lower quality players and the team's performance will suffer. This isn't due to the subclasses being worse. It's because I have arbitrarily restricted myself to using poorer players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phrase Posted May 14, 2012 Share Posted May 14, 2012 The main problem with Gabe's response is that once again he has been fooled by his system's stat collection methodology. Don't get me wrong, ToR's ingame stat collection ability has advanced the state of the art for MMOs. But the interpretation of said statistics by humans can be, and has been for this game, severely flawed. Gabe states that, "teams with all Sages and Guardians do not even appear in the top 100 win ratios". That might seem like a conclusive result. But it isn't because it doesn't control for player quality. If I form the best possible team from a pool of players that I have on my friends list and/or guild list, I can make a GREAT Huttball team. If I form the best possible team from a that same pool and restrict them only to Sage/Sorc and Guardian/Jugg, I will be using lower quality players and the team's performance will suffer. This isn't due to the subclasses being worse. It's because I have arbitrarily restricted myself to using poorer players. Not only that but these metrics also fail to account for the fact that teams will queue as four and usually pick up four randoms, so statistically getting teams of all Sage/ Guardian would be a very rare event. In fact, I'm willing to bet that a bulk of the data is comprised of the pugs that dominated the first 2-3 months of gameplay, which is further skewing any trends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verraton Posted May 14, 2012 Share Posted May 14, 2012 Would also like to know our utility in huttball. Who would ever take us over another class that can do what we can do + more? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omophorus Posted May 14, 2012 Share Posted May 14, 2012 The main problem with Gabe's response is that once again he has been fooled by his system's stat collection methodology. Don't get me wrong, ToR's ingame stat collection ability has advanced the state of the art for MMOs. But the interpretation of said statistics by humans can be, and has been for this game, severely flawed. Gabe states that, "teams with all Sages and Guardians do not even appear in the top 100 win ratios". That might seem like a conclusive result. But it isn't because it doesn't control for player quality. If I form the best possible team from a pool of players that I have on my friends list and/or guild list, I can make a GREAT Huttball team. If I form the best possible team from a that same pool and restrict them only to Sage/Sorc and Guardian/Jugg, I will be using lower quality players and the team's performance will suffer. This isn't due to the subclasses being worse. It's because I have arbitrarily restricted myself to using poorer players. The theoretical counter-argument to this is sample size. Enough metrics based on enough players will show a fairly accurate representation of what's going on in the game as a whole. That said, all that data is going to be worthless for Ranked WZs, so I expect fairly large PVP balance overhauls at that point. Ranked WZs will primarily appeal to and be utilized by a small subset of the game population that isn't representative of the wider player base, so balance issues that aren't balance issues in the broader game will be in RWZs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macroecon Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 The theoretical counter-argument to this is sample size. Enough metrics based on enough players will show a fairly accurate representation of what's going on in the game as a whole. That is incorrect. The Law of Large Numbers would apply if the composition of team members was random. But it is not. Strong players like to group with other strong players. It is what they do. Thus the creation of a strong premade necessarily gravitates towards the selection of strong players first rather than strong classes. The fact that strong teams have a class composition that is skewed away from one type of group (all members being of one or two classes) puts us in the field of Bayesian statistics, and the raw reliance on large sample size here is flawed. Now you might reply that if strong teams are currently predisposed to using multiple classes, that would imply class balance is good. But it is not. The reason that strong players are currently spread across multiple classes is that few players have had time to level up a second (or third) toon to full WH gear. But this hurdle is being rapidly surmounted. Very soon, and certainly by the time ranked wz start, you will see the availability of nearly all the strongest players to deploy the optimal subclasses. And at that point the class imblanaces will become pointedly evident. You will simply need to look at the top 8 man premades and note which classes dominate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polopopoo Posted May 16, 2012 Share Posted May 16, 2012 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvUtXFg65Cs Pretty much how TOR pvp works, get a lightsaber or get out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crrypto Posted May 16, 2012 Share Posted May 16, 2012 (edited) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvUtXFg65Cs Pretty much how TOR pvp works, get a lightsaber or get out. Bobbafett messed up at 2:05. Instead of jumping in to melee range against the Guardian he should have hit him with death from above followed with some ranged attacked. Once the Guardian lept to him he should have waited four seconds (surely Luke is Vengeance specced and has unstoppable) and then hit him with his KB in to the pit. GG. Clean cut case of L2P. Only bad Mercenaries charge in to melee so willingly. :\ Edited May 16, 2012 by crrypto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobaFaceroll Posted May 16, 2012 Share Posted May 16, 2012 Boba Fett is clearly a Powertech. You can see him use Grapple right after he uses Jet Charge to get on to the barge. Sadly the game glitched out on him and grapple didn't actually pull Luke anywhere so he got owned. That said he did nub it up. There's a pretty obvious hazard sitting right there...he should have grappled Luke in to the Sarlac pit instead for the insta-kill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSIlverSurfing Posted May 16, 2012 Share Posted May 16, 2012 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvUtXFg65Cs Pretty much how TOR pvp works, get a lightsaber or get out. This is the most accurate post that I have seen on these forums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vid-szhite Posted May 17, 2012 Share Posted May 17, 2012 (edited) lol, i read the original post, and all i can say is, teams of full guardians or sages can beat teams of operatives in hutball now if you remember, teams of operatives are the reason operatives got nerfed, so will sages and guardians get nerfed to the ground? People need to get over that line. Zoeller was giving an example of a nerf that would need to happen in order to not lead to mass unsubs (because otherwise teams of operatives are what it would lead to), not saying teams of operatives were actually a thing. He also said teams of Guardians and Sages are NOT winning more than mixed teams, so there's no need to nerf. Edited May 17, 2012 by Vid-szhite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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