Will Bioware bring playable races that doesn't look like colored humans?

[archeraplyxa]

I would resub AND pay another $150 for a Jawa bounty hunter....

 

+1

Seriously i would!

[Darth_Halford]

Excuses excuses. THE BODIES ARE THE SAME AS HUMAN BODIES, that's what the problem is. It's extremely dull and immersion-killing to be talking to aliens who have exactly the same body shapes as the humans you talk to. At the very least they could have elongated a bit here, changed proportions there, so that you didn't feel you were talking to muscle-bound human body type 3 with an alien head stuck on top.

 

Yes, lots of the aliens are humanoid, but that's a big difference from lazily having the exact same 4 body types that human beings have for every fricken' alien type.

 

You're changing your argument here I think. At first you were talking about artistic integrity and keeping in touch with "the cantina scene". Now you're nitpicking and saying that there isn't enough customization options in the characters present. That has nothing to do with artistic integrity or keeping to what got us interested in Star Wars in the first place, and everything to do with looking for something new to criticize because the old one fell flat.

 

Yes, they could have theoretically done that. What do they really gain from it though? that much extra level of immersion? unlikely: you'd still probably critique that they're all humanoid, and most players wouldn't notice or care about the nuanced differences. New subscribers? Again, highly doubtful, as per the reason explained prior. Does it help tell a more compelling story? No.

[rickyard]

Several reasons.

1: they need to speak basic because of voice overs during cut scenes.

2: there would be issues during some cut scenes where interactions with companions or npc's do not look right if there were radically different looking species. ie: other than humanoid.

3: they would have to create too many different types of gear for each alien species that had different model types other than humanoid. ie: too much work not enough time. Even the Twilik has restrictions.

 

1- I don't need them to speak basic, just as a lot of npc that talk hutesse, simply read the translation. With a wookie a little of noises would mean a lot of things, they could even use just a dozen of different sounds, combine them randomly and voila, you got a wookie talking for hours and hours... you could just write the setory and that's all, easier than actual voiceover.

 

2- All alien races that people are talking about got two arms, two legs and a head, what's the problem???

 

3- So they are lazy, because they have not done every gear to suit different characters even being all of them HUMAN. My bounty hunter seems a booblehead because he is small sized and its helmet is ENORMOUS, every helmet he uses is very big for its size. There is no different size helmets. And what about male jedi knights that sudddenly have female chest and butt when using robes?. Lazyness, we got a robe so let's use them in both genders so we got diversity with no effort. And by the way, every gear that a human uses could be used by a rodian, or a ithorian, or whatever... you only need to do gear for the HEAD, and anyway we already know what happens when we place headed gear on our alien companions. They don't have helmets for aliens? In the meantime, the solution done for our alien companions could work.

[Darth_Halford]

1- I don't need them to speak basic, just as a lot of npc that talk hutesse, simply read the translation. With a wookie a little of noises would mean a lot of things, they could even use just a dozen of different sounds, combine them randomly and voila, you got a wookie talking for hours and hours... you could just write the setory and that's all, easier than actual voiceover.

 

2- All alien races that people are talking about got two arms, two legs and a head, what's the problem???

 

3- So they are lazy, because they have not done every gear to suit different characters even being all of them HUMAN. My bounty hunter seems a booblehead because he is small sized and its helmet is ENORMOUS, every helmet he uses is very big for its size. There is no different size helmets. And what about male jedi knights that sudddenly have female chest and butt when using robes?. Lazyness, we got a robe so let's use them in both genders so we got diversity with no effort. And by the way, every gear that a human uses could be used by a rodian, or a ithorian, or whatever... you only need to do gear for the HEAD, and anyway we already know what happens when we place headed gear on our alien companions. They don't have helmets for aliens? In the meantime, the solution done for our alien companions could work.

 

1) You only interact with a given hutt, wookie, or other Non-Basic speaking character for 5-10 minutes total. It takes longer in those cases for you to realize that the same voice-clips are being used. You will notice it with a player character much sooner, and by the time you notice it, you'll also begin to tire of it.

 

2) so does a gorilla, but you'll be hard pressed to make one walk, stand, or act like a human does.

 

3) You really think a Human can wear the same headgear as an ITHORIAN? ya, sure, lets go with that. Next thing you'll tell us that Jawas are nothing but tiny Herglics.

[ryathal]

3) You really think a Human can wear the same headgear as an ITHORIAN? ya, sure, lets go with that. Next thing you'll tell us that Jawas are nothing but tiny Herglics.

 

it works just fine in wow, i think BW should be able t manage the same graphical abilities as wow.

[Darth_Halford]

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but WoW doesn't have species with hammerhead head structures or mouths on the side of its body. Everything in WoW is set up to be more or less a Human-ish face (all of the primary organs are all in the same place, all that changes is the shape of the skull). In such a case, all that you really need to do is resize the helmet. With full-head helmets, it just replaces the head polygons with the helmet polygons to conserve processing strain.

 

Even if that were to be attempted (say, putting a Trooper helmet on an Ithorians head and just take out the head poly's) it would still look odd because the head structure is so strange.

[rickyard]

1) You only interact with a given hutt, wookie, or other Non-Basic speaking character for 5-10 minutes total. It takes longer in those cases for you to realize that the same voice-clips are being used. You will notice it with a player character much sooner, and by the time you notice it, you'll also begin to tire of it.

 

2) so does a gorilla, but you'll be hard pressed to make one walk, stand, or act like a human does.

 

3) You really think a Human can wear the same headgear as an ITHORIAN? ya, sure, lets go with that. Next thing you'll tell us that Jawas are nothing but tiny Herglics.

 

1- So you think that when our wookie does a hundred of non-sense sounds we begin to get tired of it? It won't be a problem, we'll be READING what he says. Anyway with your human character i am tired of hearin "You got my attention", a phrase that repeats a hundred times. Anyway, in terms of roleplaying game i prefer CHOICES, and OPTIONS rather than precious-looking voices. Perhaps we can conclude that the voices have been an horrible idea for roleplaying. I enjoyed a lot the EVENT, the rakhgoul plague, and in the mission there was little voice over, there was a lot of text explaining most of the times what happened. I don't think we even notice it, we anjoyed anyway.

 

2- Ithorians move as humans, as in the film there is a human under the mask, exactly the same as wookies, rodians, mon cal, etc. We are not talking about gorillas, we talk aliens that were created using humans disguised. we can even recognize the way chewie walked when we see the actor that was under the disguise.

 

3- I could simply copy-paste what i said, but i will explain it again. They have not done more than ONE version of some of the gear, that's why we see female curves when a male uses a robe, or that's why we see a booblehead when a tiny bounty hunter uses a one size helmet. BUT as OUR COMPANIONS are a great example, what i suggested is that, in the meantime to create some special gear for, let's say, ithorians (your example), you could still use NORMAL gear and simply do what it does with our companions, DON'T SHOW THE HELMET. i don't recall saying that the helmet of a human would fit nice in an ithorian head.

 

 

And of course i would prefer the OPTION to REROLL a DIFFERENT character, like a jawa, an ewok, or even a giant rabbit, and get rid of the VOICE, rather than repeating same quests with another makeup human with magical voices. Anyway most of the times i got subtitles on, and when i finish reading i press space bar.

[yoomazir]

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but WoW doesn't have species with hammerhead head structures or mouths on the side of its body. Everything in WoW is set up to be more or less a Human-ish face (all of the primary organs are all in the same place, all that changes is the shape of the skull)...

 

Taurians would like to have a word with you, and the upcoming "panda" race also

But besides that, WoW races still had different body types to each other more than those from our beloved SWTOR game.

 

Even if that were to be attempted (say, putting a Trooper helmet on an Ithorians head and just take out the head poly's) it would still look odd because the head structure is so strange.

 

That's why you make specific content for them.

[Darth_Halford]

the voice-over, which adds to the narrative, provides a choice of morality for your character with the Light/Dark scale, as well as an actual sense of interaction between yourself and the NPC's.

 

Sure, in other games you get a wider choice of species, but nothing changes either way. You could play the same class with each different species, your experience is going to be exactly the same.

 

Do you want different kinds of candy, or different kinds of wrappers?

[Darth_Halford]

Taurians would like to have a word with you, and the upcoming "panda" race also

But besides that, WoW races still had different body types to each other more than those from our beloved SWTOR game.

 

I stand by what I said: all of their major organs are in the same place as a human, all the changes is the shape of the skull.

[yoomazir]

I stand by what I said: all of their major organs are in the same place as a human, all the changes is the shape of the skull.

 

Hopefully, we are talking about STAR WARS here.

[Souvarr]

Ok there is no issue with aliens being played. There are four reason given why they can't and no they are not correct.

1: They have to speak basic. First no they don't we can read it, or have a translater. But that said, most of the aliens can speak basic. Between this game, KOTOR, Clone Wars, and novels we find very few species can't. In fact even Wookies can speak basic (Heir to the Empire the wookies could speak common).

 

2: Gear, except many of us already have these as companion, Qyzen have no issue with looking like a trooper. The only issue is head gear and we do what already happen, the gear goes invisible. We already have a player race with this issue, Twillek.

 

3: Cut scene. This is also non issue. Most cut scene have our companion in them. But there no issue with that in spite that Bounty Hunter have Blizz a Jawa and also as Skard what ever he is, he tower over Blizz. Yet either can be in a scene. Also cut scene have no issue with male size 4 or female size 1 being in the scene.

 

4: Romance: So we have no romance is that a really an issue. My Shadow is not going be in one, the trooper drive me crazy. Also if romace is so important you can change the character race. Playing a Rodian Bounty Hunter and now Mako is a Rodian.

 

End result no issue, We want aliens, Republic need aliens to help get more people on our side.

[rickyard]

Do you want different kinds of candy, or different kinds of wrappers?

 

In a role playing Game i hope to have different candys AND different wrappers.

 

Anyway, this rpg only have different wrappers, as esentially every character is similar to other. We, even talking about humans, have got but a few options, we got no SLIDE to choose size, if you want it fat you MUST be tall and a male. There are no fat females. The faces are limited, i have found so many characters similar to mine, and even NPC that seemed like that secondary actor you see in every sitcom, hehe

[gurugeorge]

You're changing your argument here I think. At first you were talking about artistic integrity and keeping in touch with "the cantina scene". Now you're nitpicking and saying that there isn't enough customization options in the characters present. That has nothing to do with artistic integrity or keeping to what got us interested in Star Wars in the first place, and everything to do with looking for something new to criticize because the old one fell flat.

 

Yes, they could have theoretically done that. What do they really gain from it though? that much extra level of immersion? unlikely: you'd still probably critique that they're all humanoid, and most players wouldn't notice or care about the nuanced differences. New subscribers? Again, highly doubtful, as per the reason explained prior. Does it help tell a more compelling story? No.

 

Nonsense, the OP was about what I've just said, my previous post was an attempt to get behind that and try to figure out what was missing in their rationale, in response to someone who was talking about devs tailoring their min-maxing of resources to likely audience preferences.

 

To spell it out:- the overt problem, as highlighted in the OP, is that the alien bodies are almost all humanoid 1-4, same as the human characters that we play. This is annoying an un-immersive, and also looks like some sort of lazy min-maxing of resources on BW's behalf (it's not worth their time being a bit more careful and varied about the alien bodies, since probably most players won't even care) - a point made by someone in the thread. I argued that many SW lovers will care, because part of the initial SW appeal was the alienness of the aliens, and that it shows a certain lack of care about the IP on BW's part, to ignore that and not put a bit more attention to detail into giving the aliens alien bodies, and not just sticking alien heads on top of the human body types. I really don't think that's too much to ask for, for the sake of artistic integrity; but BW in this instance put convenience ahead of artistic integrity. Bad call - makes the game have a much less "solid" feel than it otherwise could have had.

 

I hope that's clear.

Edited May 20, 2012 by gurugeorge

[ChaosKirin]

I still don't see a problem with giving people who want to play aliens the ability to do so.

 

It's not as if we're also saying 'We want to play aliens, but we also want to take away the ability for you to keep playing your human character.'

 

Every 'problem' that's been brought up has a workaround. The only thing preventing Bioware from doing it is that they want all PCs to be able to sex one of their companions.

[siegedeluxe]

In a role playing Game i hope to have different candys AND different wrappers.

 

Anyway, this rpg only have different wrappers, as esentially every character is similar to other. We, even talking about humans, have got but a few options, we got no SLIDE to choose size, if you want it fat you MUST be tall and a male. There are no fat females. The faces are limited, i have found so many characters similar to mine, and even NPC that seemed like that secondary actor you see in every sitcom, hehe

 

Yeah, it's called the clone syndrome.

[rickyard]

I have to say that I wouldn't have unsub if i could have been able to do ANOTHER character that just was not so similar to the ones i already own.

 

First, our characteristics are completely pointless. My jedi uses "will" to hit with her lightsaber. Got other jedi, that uses "strenght" to do exactly the same. Then I got companion that uses "aim" to hit with his weapon. But then my bounty hunter uses his "aim" to shoot. ?¿?¿?¿?¿¿? It is just POINTLESS to have more than just ONE characteristic, the others are there for ornament. And these characteristics are not chosen, so stupid then, they do not serve the gameplay and do not serve to give you a "feel" of customizing your character.

 

Then our gear: we can't choose from outside the kind of clothes the designers think that it is the "look" a character SHOULD have. Why can i place PANTS in my consular jedi?? Why can't i have a smuggler that actually looks like a trooper? why not? we got hundreds of examples of characters in star wars universe that don't look as the designers think they should look. I love to have a vest for my smuggler, but why can't i have a vest for my jedi?

And of course ships: no possibility to have any other ship than the rest of us. So ships are like tatooine, or like Fleet, same to EVERYONE. No customization.

And then races: just colours, nothing less, nothing more. No aliens. No differences but some social moves that are absurd and have no in-game effect.

And the illusion of light and dark side. Just for having SOME kind of clothes or weapons, anyway there is no difference in the story, doesn't serve any purpose, and anyway nobody is looking for a light III chest if you got lvl 50 gear.

 

So: WHAT DO WE CHOOSE in a suposed ROLE PLAYING GAME? Nothing, we follow a story, then finish, and we got to reroll VERY similar characters once again, or do endlessly same fp.

[ISTrick]

People who want to play exotic species is a minority, yet the work required to make all the gear and animations work on a single exotic specie simply outweighs the benefit. The majority of players prefer humanoid-species whom they can more easily relate with, as such more work is done of those species.

 

Had BioWare introduced species, chances are those species will have: 1. awkward animations, 2. nearly all the gear in the game do not show up, or only show up in a very limited number of forms, 3. no proper VO, only alien gibberish. Only in such circumstances can the amount of work be justified. Yet if that had happened then I'm certain there will be even more complaints. As a result BioWare chose the safer option of not introducing those species as playable characters at all.

 

I'm one of these people that prefer humanoid species... I just can't relate if I was an Ithorian giant-head derper.

 

Same reason I never play female toons.. I just can't 'get into' the role/character.. I must love looking at male butts all day (as the kids say). lol

[Jamh]

So whether it's Dragon Age, Mass Effect or The Old Republic, PCs are near enough to humans for us to crawl into their skin. They have generally understandable facial expressions, they don't look ludicrous speaking the basic language, they can interact with the rest of the galaxy without a constant "what the heck?" reaction from the NPCs. The freaks, the droids, the weird that we get to know and learn about--that's where our companions come in.

 

It's okay to turn to your companions and say "What are you supposed to be?" It's not okay to look in the mirror and say that.

 

In the future I can see a day where we would do a Trandoshan or Wookiee type story but it would have to be just that. Not a simple graphic swap where now your smuggler is a giant lizard man and nobody notices but a full class story where you learn what it means to be this strange alien and deal with the rest of the galaxy and their reactions. For the present, however, our heroes are our projections of self, headed into a galaxy of wonders and adventures.

 

From what Erickson said here and his other quotes it seems that they went with the most relatable Star Wars characters, humans, built the current class storylines around them and then went from there. Resource and time wise I can definitely understand the reasoning behind that decision though. However, given the quote above, it seems that if/when they do decide to introduce Trandoshans, Wookies, etc. they're going to actually go the extra mile and build their storylines around their specific species instead of just re-skinning the current models. Personally, I'd rather wait and play a new storyline with a unique perspective than to have them rush out new species just to say that they have them in the game.

[Darth_Halford]

Every 'problem' that's been brought up has a workaround. The only thing preventing Bioware from doing it is that they want all PCs to be able to sex one of their companions.

 

because there is that expectation that you have the ability.

Imagine down the line, you have (Insert non-human species) as playable. Pretty much the same, but alot of the interactions are removed, including potential romances with your companions or others. Do you REALLY think that's going to sit well?

[Darth_Halford]

I have to say that I wouldn't have unsub if i could have been able to do ANOTHER character that just was not so similar to the ones i already own.

 

First, our characteristics are completely pointless. My jedi uses "will" to hit with her lightsaber. Got other jedi, that uses "strenght" to do exactly the same. Then I got companion that uses "aim" to hit with his weapon. But then my bounty hunter uses his "aim" to shoot. ?¿?¿?¿?¿¿? It is just POINTLESS to have more than just ONE characteristic, the others are there for ornament. And these characteristics are not chosen, so stupid then, they do not serve the gameplay and do not serve to give you a "feel" of customizing your character.

 

Then our gear: we can't choose from outside the kind of clothes the designers think that it is the "look" a character SHOULD have. Why can i place PANTS in my consular jedi?? Why can't i have a smuggler that actually looks like a trooper? why not? we got hundreds of examples of characters in star wars universe that don't look as the designers think they should look. I love to have a vest for my smuggler, but why can't i have a vest for my jedi?

And of course ships: no possibility to have any other ship than the rest of us. So ships are like tatooine, or like Fleet, same to EVERYONE. No customization.

And then races: just colours, nothing less, nothing more. No aliens. No differences but some social moves that are absurd and have no in-game effect.

And the illusion of light and dark side. Just for having SOME kind of clothes or weapons, anyway there is no difference in the story, doesn't serve any purpose, and anyway nobody is looking for a light III chest if you got lvl 50 gear.

 

So: WHAT DO WE CHOOSE in a suposed ROLE PLAYING GAME? Nothing, we follow a story, then finish, and we got to reroll VERY similar characters once again, or do endlessly same fp.

 

I find that first assertion highly doubtful. At the very least it's completly illogical. The content doesn't change: the narrative won't change. To use the previous analogy, you just put a different wrapper over the same candy bar, and somehow you think it'll taste better.

 

I'm kind of lost as to how you want to "customize" your stats. There's custom gear so you do get to tweak and create the stats in your equipment, thus customizing the stats that your character has. If you're talking about actually getting to customize what stats your character relies on for different abilities, I think you're being overly imaginative. I'm not aware of any MMO that basically lets you make your own class.

 

Sure, there are of course exceptions to rules all the time, but how many of them are really prominent? How many of them contribute anything significant?

Better yet, how many characters are actually defined by what they look like or how they dress? Even characters like Darth Vader or Bobba Fett, where you don't see anything underneath their "gear" are defined by their actions more-so than their appearance. Likewise, the game puts more emphasis on the actions and choices of the character than they do appearances.

 

Ships are also a completly minor part of the game. the only time you're ever in your ship is to change from one planet zone to another.Does it make an ounce of sense to create this great wealth of ships and customization options for something that is at best, a distraction in space combat and at worse is an easy out to load a new world server?

 

In what MMO has species ever had a "real" effect? none that I've ever played.

 

Light/Dark is not an "illusion", it is a real mechanic. Sure, it may not have any affect on the world itself, but very little in an MMO ever is actually affected by the player.

 

You choose your narrative, you choose your advanced class, and you choose your talents.

 

The narrative actually serves a purpose in that it gives you a reason to continue playing, to continue progressing your character. Ideally you stop worrying about what abilities or gear you get at the next level, you start wondering what the next story quest will have you do and how it advance your overall plot.

 

What does customization give you except the illusion that you're special? That out of the millions of people that play the same game as you, you are somehow unique.

[ChaosKirin]

because there is that expectation that you have the ability.

Imagine down the line, you have (Insert non-human species) as playable. Pretty much the same, but alot of the interactions are removed, including potential romances with your companions or others. Do you REALLY think that's going to sit well?

 

As a person who thinks the romances are contrived and boring, yes.

 

If you want to romance your companion, then play a character that can.

[Darth_Halford]

As a person who thinks the romances are contrived and boring, yes.

 

If you want to romance your companion, then play a character that can.

 

Why can't I do both?

 

You and I both know someone at some point is going to ask that question, and the only answer you seem to have is that it's not your problem.

[ChaosKirin]

'cuz it's not my problem.

 

Though I guess the solution would be to give that character a companion that they CAN romance. If you want to play a Talz character, then give them a Wookiee or Talz or something they can get it on with. I... personally wouldn't want to see that, but hell, if that's what you like, go for it.

 

What I REALLY don't like seeing, though is that an addition the the game that people would like is being argued against so strongly. Instead of saying how it can't work, why not come up with reasons why it CAN? Like I said before, it's not like letting people play a Jawa is going to take away your ability to play as a human, so what is the harm?

 

A better way to ask that is, if I could play a Rodian tomorrow, how would that diminish your enjoyment of the game?

[Krowloon]

How about droids? I would love to play with an astromech, no, honestly... As that is highly unlikely, maybe assassination unit like HK-47? Who wouldn't like to play crazed maniacal killer?

 

Whole first chapter can be about him going around killing targets for his master.