Sin Tank - Stacking Power.

[thefishdude]

Let me get this out there. I'm one of "those" SinTanks that run with DPS gear. Right or wrong, that's the PVP role I choose to play. Ok, with said, I'm wondering about a couple of things regarding Crit, Surge & Power.

 

I've read multiple post that say we (Sintanks) should mainly stack power, but is there a point of diminishing return on power.

 

Willpower: 1604

Endurance: 1490

Power: 469

Crit: 193

Surge: 104

 

I'm wondering if I should stop stacking power and focus on surge? I'm just curious if anyone has noticed stacking more power makes that big of a difference?

[Ibiza-Vin]

If you're below a 75% crit multiplier, surge is point for point your best damage increase as a sin tank. Then power. Crit is unnecessary due to energize, recklessness, and the +9% crit chance on melee talent.

 

So yes, you should stop stacking power and focus on surge for now and yes, the gains from stacking power after surge capped are very noticable.

Edited May 11, 2012 by Ibiza-Vin

[thefishdude]

If you're below a 75% crit multiplier, surge is point for point your best damage increase as a sin tank. Then power. Crit is unnecessary due to energize, recklessness, and the +9% crit chance on melee talent.

 

So yes, you should stop stacking power and focus on surge for now and yes, the gains from stacking power after surge capped are very noticable.

 

Thanks

[Skorpeo]

Still waiting for a good mathematical reference for why Power has dimishing returns....

[Xancath]

If you're below a 75% crit multiplier, surge is point for point your best damage increase as a sin tank. Then power. Crit is unnecessary due to energize, recklessness, and the +9% crit chance on melee talent.

 

So yes, you should stop stacking power and focus on surge for now and yes, the gains from stacking power after surge capped are very noticable.

 

Erm, you actually lose dps and hps by including thrash in your rotation.

 

Furthermore, how does recklessness devalue crit at ALL if your crit isn't at least 40%? Same point goes towards the 9% melee crit buff via that talent. Remembering that diminishing returns are applied BEFORE buffs of any sort.

[Payneintherear]

Still waiting for a good mathematical reference for why Power has dimishing returns....

 

Power as a stat does not have diminishing returns. The "relative" returns diminish, as they do for any stat that doesn't offer a dynamic +%increase.

 

Example: You have 10 apples and you will be adding 2 more apples to your basket every day (2 apples representing your static gains in power). The first 2 apples offer you a 20% increase of your total apple pool, whereas each day, while your relative apple pool increases, the rate at which you add apples is stagnant, offering less of your total apple pool with each passing day.

 

By the time your basket contains 20 apples, the 2 apples you add the next day, will only offer a 10% increase of your total. In order to not see diminishing returns, each day, you'd have to gain 20% of your apple pool, thus the earnings would have to be increasing dynamically (i.e. power would have to add more damage per point, the more you add).

[Skorpeo]

Power as a stat does not have diminishing returns. The "relative" returns diminish, as they do for any stat that doesn't offer a dynamic +%increase.

 

I understand that. That has been theory crafted since Everquest (and probably before). Im just not comfortable with people saying that power has dimishing returns. I kind of remember when they changed % to Rating in WoW and it sparked the same arguement off. All of a sudden people were saying that a balance of the stats would mean that we get point for point, the best return. After awhile, once the theorycrafters interjected each class with each classes' different talents or abilities, they found that 1 stat can be more powerful then the others, and as such wouldnt see enough eventual loss to warrent using much of another stat.

 

For Sin Tanks, based on our abilities and talents, we found that Accuracy isnt worth much because most our abilities are force based. Add in Energize and Recklessness, then Crit losses its luster. Surge as we know, falls off extremely after 75%, which is relatively easy to achieve. So the only stat that gives us the most clear advantage is power.

 

Personally, I say stack it, though I would throw in some Willpower augments in to gain some crit while sacraficing a small amount of power.

[Payneintherear]

I understand that. That has been theory crafted since Everquest (and probably before). Im just not comfortable with people saying that power has dimishing returns. I kind of remember when they changed % to Rating in WoW and it sparked the same arguement off. All of a sudden people were saying that a balance of the stats would mean that we get point for point, the best return. After awhile, once the theorycrafters interjected each class with each classes' different talents or abilities, they found that 1 stat can be more powerful then the others, and as such wouldnt see enough eventual loss to warrent using much of another stat.

 

For Sin Tanks, based on our abilities and talents, we found that Accuracy isnt worth much because most our abilities are force based. Add in Energize and Recklessness, then Crit losses its luster. Surge as we know, falls off extremely after 75%, which is relatively easy to achieve. So the only stat that gives us the most clear advantage is power.

 

Personally, I say stack it, though I would throw in some Willpower augments in to gain some crit while sacraficing a small amount of power.

 

In any remotely logical environment, any stat that falls off due to absolute diminishing returns (as opposed to relative diminishing returns) is more powerful than a stat that does not. So Crit and Surge Rating, per se, are definitely more powerful than Power as a stat. However, as you described, there are different builds and mechanics that have to be factored in (like autocrits).

 

This makes the whole balancing act more complicated. Without going into huge theorycrafting, I'd suggest stacking Crit and Surge over Power up to a certain point even for Darkness/Kinetic (the reason for this is that the class itself is force starved, so that we can not Thrash/Double Strike as much as we'd like to to get more energized Shocks/Projects.)

 

Furthermore, Willpower should be preferred to Power as well (not that you run into many situations where you can exchange Power for Willpower point for point, though), because not only does Willpower offer a good amount of dps bonus (not as much as Power but not too far off either) and crit chance, it also gets amplified by our class buff, so that the more Willpower you stack, the more your buff will add.

Edited May 11, 2012 by Payneintherear

[Ch_Zero]

so when we augment our gear 18 willpower / 12 endurance is preferred over 18 power 12 end?

[Payneintherear]

so when we augment our gear 18 willpower / 12 endurance is preferred over 18 power 12 end?

 

Definitely, yes.

[Ibiza-Vin]

Erm, you actually lose dps and hps by including thrash in your rotation.

 

Furthermore, how does recklessness devalue crit at ALL if your crit isn't at least 40%? Same point goes towards the 9% melee crit buff via that talent. Remembering that diminishing returns are applied BEFORE buffs of any sort.

 

Well then I guess it depends on playstyle. I've seen a lot of people on the forums talk about not using thrash as darkness, but I don't have any problems with it. Since I wait for energize to proc before I shock (usually takes 1-2 thrashes), my shocks always crit and, consequently, my melee attacks always have a +9% crit.

 

What do you use recklessness for? Myself, I use them for two energized shocks or 1 energized shock and HDx3 force lightning. The only difference 40% crit vs 25% crit would make in this scenario is that 4 ticks of FL would crit instead of 3.

 

Point for point, beyond 25% crit worth of rating (so 30 with the op buff), I'd say power (or willpower) trumps all.

 

I of course could be wrong. But I have been sacrificing a lot of crit for a lot of power recently and I'm definitely loving the change.

Edited May 12, 2012 by Ibiza-Vin

[Xancath]

Well then I guess it depends on playstyle. I've seen a lot of people on the forums talk about not using thrash as darkness, but I don't have any problems with it. Since I wait for energize to proc before I shock (usually takes 1-2 thrashes), my shocks always crit and, consequently, my melee attacks always have a +9% crit.

 

What do you use recklessness for? Myself, I use them for two energized shocks or 1 energized shock and HDx3 force lightning. The only difference 40% crit vs 25% crit would make in this scenario is that 4 ticks of FL would crit instead of 3.

 

Point for point, beyond 25% crit worth of rating (so 30 with the op buff), I'd say power (or willpower) trumps all.

 

I of course could be wrong. But I have been sacrificing a lot of crit for a lot of power recently and I'm definitely loving the change.

 

Have a look at my thread for data relating to this: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=452523

 

As for thrash, energize, and recklessness burst; You still thrash to energize when setting up your cd-ready burst

[thefishdude]

All my gear is either WH or Orange w/ augment slots that are filled with Willpower augments; so, ATM, I've stacked as much Willpower as possible. Sounds like I need to get my Surge up to at least 75% (currently at 35%) and then continue stacking Power.

 

One last thing, thanks for all the replies. This is what the forum should be. Thanks

[Ibiza-Vin]

Have a look at my thread for data relating to this: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=452523

 

As for thrash, energize, and recklessness burst; You still thrash to energize when setting up your cd-ready burst

 

Interesting. Thank you for the info.

 

I'll have to play around with maul this weekend and see how that works out. For now, though, I still say power/willpower over crit since that's our best shock damage amplifier.

 

Couldn't we say that this is a strength of spec 1 over spec 3? 31/0/10 is less reliant on crit and so we can devote more item rating to power, while 31/1/9 needs a higher base crit% to be as effective.