Sentinel/Marauder - The Problem is NOT DPS.

[HurricaneXXIV]

Snipers/GS's have a leg shot that is the exact same cool down as your talented leap.

 

They have 2 stuns/knock backs for your melee range opener if you make it to them.

 

They have 1 flash grenade to be used at range, your leap is also rendered useless by cover.

 

Who's exploiting who's weakness when you have 1 12 second leap (if the gs is out of cover) and 1 vanish with your anhilation spec that you play? That doesn't even take into account someone else on the team might help by peeling you.

 

Do you play a Sent? Why would you even put 2 points into the cloak of annihilation?

[Kayse]

Between CoP and undying, that's at least 11 seconds, according to you, that you can't attack a marauder- compare that to the zero seconds where it's unwise to attack anyone else, and then consider you just gave a marauder full resolve while doing no damage to him.

 

With full resolve, I'm going to tear you to shreds in a matter of seconds even without CoP and undying- my last WZ I killed a sage from full when I was at 10% health and that's without having to use undying.

 

Ya- PT do more burst than mara, so do snipers- they also have garbage mobility and defensive CDs in comparison- and mara end up with better long term damage.

 

Having midcard burst- when you're top for everything else isn't a reasonable trade at all- especially when you can lock down anyone while you're bursting.

 

TTK is way to short for mara, PT, sins, snipers and ops- but at least snipers, ops and PTs have obvious, easily exploitable weaknesses- and if you honestly are going to tell me 'but marauders don't have mobility' BS- we top mobility, ranged doesn't mean a thing when it's this easy to lock down in melee and gap close. I have to question your claim of being top marauder on your server if you're getting kited all the time.

 

Marauders/sents are easy to Kite. And you can cc them with roots and fill up no resolve and snares also do not fill up resolve.

 

Powertechs have their leap incase you forgot. Seemst o be the same mobility as us sents/marauders. Snipers also get speed boosts if i recall and the most CC in the game and even higher burst than Marauders/sents. Still no where as bad as powertechs though.

 

Also i don't get kited all the time, or at all because i know what im doing. But that's how you would counter a sentinel/marauder towards the badies who get facerolled and qq without thinking things through. Hell i can kite other marauders around in circles when they pop their defensive cooldowns lol

Edited May 13, 2012 by Kayse

[Xerain]

You got 4 points between close quarters, phantom, subjugation, cloak of annihilation and enraged charge- none of which are extremely vital- maybe one in close quarters but you don't need a gap closer when you're in melee range. While the abilities are better spent in the other abilities- in the end, they're mostly all small buffs to defensive CDs or reductions of their CD time- or 2 points to get one more rage off a leap, nice but annihilation isn't hurting for rage in the slightest.

 

Shorter disruption? Well sure- a 6 second disruption does mean you can literally lock out a non-heal spec sorc's only heal worth casting literally forever- 4 sec lock out, 3 sec cast vs 6 sec interrupt- do the math. 1 or 2 sec only makes a difference if you're so hardcore into interrupts you know you'll use it every single time it's up.

 

In the end though- it's arguing over mediocre talents.

 

No the 6 second kick is a must for annihilation. With the lower CD on charge and lower range (sure you don't need both points in it) it helps the tree far too much. those 3 talents are always worth it.

[fungihoujo]

Let's see... class with no stealth, no speed buffs, no gap closers, no snare/root escapes beyond the one everyone gets, no temp immunity to snare/stuns... actually, zero abilities period that increase mobility- add to that a mechanic that relies entirely on staying still- you can of course be talking of relying purely on the dots spec- much more mobile, but with the flaw of now being a target of anyone with a gap closer.

 

Cover is not mobility- it lets you stand on ramps and not having marauders jump to you- but believe it or not that wouldn't fall under mobility- and would be more of a defensive ability. Cover also refuses to work if you're too close to a wall, rock, ledge or anywhere that the game simply decides is a bad place to go into cover- it also still regularly bugs out to have you perma covered while walking- not reaping the benefits or getting the abilities, while being unable to actually enter cover.

 

The best mobility a sniper has is the roll into cover- which requires you to be environmentally aware to a degree far, far beyond what any other class has to even touch.

 

Yet to have trouble killing a sniper, and definitely have yet to see a sniper with impressive mobility- best I've seen is dots sniper with good use of LoS.

Edited May 13, 2012 by Ellvaan
Quoted removed content

[HurricaneXXIV]

 

So usually 6-8 seconds.

 

 

K I'll bite, you have 3-4 globals to kill me, how do you do it?

[fungihoujo]

Marauders/sents are easy to Kite. And you can cc them with roots and fill up no resolve and snares also do not fill up resolve.

 

Powertechs have their leap incase you forgot. Seemst o be the same mobility as us sents/marauders. Snipers also get speed boosts if i recall and the most CC in the game and even higher burst than Marauders/sents. Still no where as bad as powertechs though.

 

Also i don't get kited all the time, or at all because i know what im doing. But that's how you would counter a sentinel/marauder towards the badies who get facerolled and qq without thinking things through. Hell i can kite other marauders around in circles when they pop their defensive cooldowns lol

 

PTs get a leap in their tank tree- which even with dps gear is not nearly as good for pvp as pyrotech- and absolutely lack the burst damage.

 

Snipers get an aoe knockback, root, aoe mez and stun- decent yes- but a marauder can spec into carnage- still have great damage, and 3 roots on shorter CDs, aoe mez, stun, gap closer.

 

Also- snares mean little versus marauder roots and considering as a marauder, you'll always have a 50% snare on your enemy- if you're both snared that much, you can chase while killing them. Your roots won't last very long as anything but a sniper- and even then a well timed saber ward negates a root. For sorcs- they get a root that gives them 2 seconds every 9 seconds- between leap, stealth, defensive CDs, my own root and better mobile snares- they won't- and don't- manage to kite me.

[Kayse]

PTs get a leap in their tank tree- which even with dps gear is not nearly as good for pvp as pyrotech- and absolutely lack the burst damage.

 

Snipers get an aoe knockback, root, aoe mez and stun- decent yes- but a marauder can spec into carnage- still have great damage, and 3 roots on shorter CDs, aoe mez, stun, gap closer.

 

Also- snares mean little versus marauder roots and considering as a marauder, you'll always have a 50% snare on your enemy- if you're both snared that much, you can chase while killing them. Your roots won't last very long as anything but a sniper- and even then a well timed saber ward negates a root. For sorcs- they get a root that gives them 2 seconds every 9 seconds- between leap, stealth, defensive CDs, my own root and better mobile snares- they won't- and don't- manage to kite me.

 

True on the powertech/leap. As for marauder/carnage spec the problem with that spec is it has a slower interrupt cooldown, it does move slightly faster, and it has far less chances to survive without the heals making it completely nonviable and in my opinion the easiest class to kill aside from sages.

 

The point of them snaring isnt to kill you, its to wear you down long enough for your defensive cooldowns to wear off for they could walk all over you. Also need to keep in mind other classes have ways of gaining speed bonuses i.e force speed and they can do their smaller actual cc stuns that are just enough to keep most marauders at bay as they waste their defensive cooldowns. Yeah the small stun cc does damage, so its only viable for undying rage, but still its an option.

 

I still stick by my personal opinion on each class, all classes can beat each other if they can outskill each other. Unless you are fighting a powertech and die in 2-3 hits. Not **** you can do for that.

[HurricaneXXIV]

You can snare a sniper at 50%, he can make you walk 0% for the duration of legshot, dirty kick, flash grenade or pd. We can call it immobility or mobility. Either way no other class can peel a melee like a sniper. They are also extremly good at not even letting the target get to them and not even needing to negate the snares.

[Xerain]

No you can do fine with keeping people off you, it's not a troll. Rolling a sniper now just because it looks so fun. Go look at the lethality tree.

 

Even marksmanship has a ton of stuff to keep melee off them and they can stay very mobile but you're not going to do as much damage, which is a fine trade off because i'd rather take 0 damage and do some than try to do damage and get my face beat in.

Edited May 13, 2012 by Ellvaan
Wrong Language Format. Pm'd

[fungihoujo]

K I'll bite, you have 3-4 globals to kill me, how do you do it?

 

I can get off 3 globals at 0, 1.5 and 3 seconds- not going to happen. In 6 seconds- so 0, 1.5, 3, 4.5, 6- 5 GCDs, I'll have rupture off of leap at the start of the fight (unless I deem my leap more important for later)- 1.5k plus 2.5k plus 3-4k damage off crit dots plus another 1.5k off deadly saber (9.5k off the first attack, spread over the next 6-8 second due to dots- which shouldn't be a shock as this is a dots build), vicious slash plus retaliation- 2.5k+2k, with a well timed retaliation another deadly saber stack (about 14k by the second GCD)- of course this is assuming they haven't tried to get away with something like sprint- which will indeed add time because I'd likely counter sprint with force choke to waste their sprint while letting dots tick- if not, throw in battering assault for 1-1.5k if I need some rage, another deadly saber on that or the next one- finish with an annihilate for 5k or so- we're looking at a potential total of 22k damage.

 

 

Naturally, that's only potential, with the idea that I'm using my CDs, relics, adrenals, etc... and I've got full fury and rage- but, there's a few classes that are not going to touch 22k in 6-8 seconds, potential or not... and, frankly, most of the people I face have 15k health, so 22k is pretty unneeded- 15k in 6-8 seconds is quite possible in a match, at the point where it'll happen a few times a game where I'll flatten someone in under 10 seconds.

 

 

edit- Silly me, forgot vicious throw- nice way to end a fight.

Edited May 13, 2012 by fungihoujo

[HurricaneXXIV]

No you can do fine with keeping people off you, it's not a troll. Rolling a sniper now just because it looks so fun. Go look at the lethality tree.

 

Even marksmanship has a ton of stuff to keep melee off them and they can stay very mobile but you're not going to do as much damage, which is a fine trade off because i'd rather take 0 damage and do some than try to do damage and get my face beat in.

 

Lethality and Sab are actually more fun than SS. You gain mobility and extra snares. In both cases you get to still take away a melee's leap through cover.

[Vid-szhite]

No you can do fine with keeping people off you, it's not a troll. Rolling a sniper now just because it looks so fun. Go look at the lethality tree.

 

Even marksmanship has a ton of stuff to keep melee off them and they can stay very mobile but you're not going to do as much damage, which is a fine trade off because i'd rather take 0 damage and do some than try to do damage and get my face beat in.

 

I'm not a Sniper, I'm a Jugg. I know how good Snipers are at keeping melees off them. I also know what mobility is, being the most mobile class in the game, and what Snipers have is not mobility, it's kiting ability. Not the same thing at all.

[Xerain]

Lethality and Sab are actually more fun than SS. You gain mobility and extra snares. In both cases you get to still take away a melee's leap through cover.

 

Lethality looks like a lot of fun... going to wait to 50 to try it out though.

[Xerain]

I'm not a Sniper, I'm a Jugg. I know how good Snipers are at keeping melees off them. I also know what mobility is, being the most mobile class in the game, and what Snipers have is not mobility, it's kiting ability. Not the same thing at all.

 

Yes it is. Lethality is probably one of the most mobile ranged specs in the game.

[fungihoujo]

Yes it is. Lethality is probably one of the most mobile ranged specs in the game.

 

Well, when you say it that way... and considering mercs are pretty much turrets in arsenal, and lightning sorcs have to stay still for almost all their damage- and even madness sorcs rely heavily on force lightning for damage and procs... yes, leth snipers do have the ability to move more while attacking than other range classes- though that makes them an easy target for leaps.

 

They are still lacking quite a bit when it comes to escapes and actual mobility buffs- decent CC only takes them so far- and they have far less upfront damage as the penalty for their mobility compared to a cover based sniper.

 

They're also still less mobile than anything but mercs and non tank PTs when they actually want to move- and considerably less mobile than most melee classes.

Edited May 13, 2012 by fungihoujo

[Shortsleeves]

Cannot believe the ignorance I read in this thread.

 

Okay. rebuke/cloak of pain. Don't attack for 6 seconds/kite. Its gone.

 

Saber ward. Use force/tech attacks. 100% accuracy, it does nothing.

 

Undying rage - Aoe cc/cc. Done.

 

Tada, you just beat any sent/marauder!

 

Cannot believe I dont hear more complaints about Powertechs. Heavy armor with 90% arp and the biggest burst in the game put all sents/marauder dps to shame, and i play very well as a sent and im the top sent on Shien. (Click the R60 in my siggy if you want an example)

 

Just got done in a game with one full War hero Powertech who rail shotted me for 7k and 3 hit me in under 5 seconds...Lol'd my *** off.

 

Attempting to deflect the wonderful attention of the nerf patrol onto powertechs? Oh you.

 

You didn't get three shot'd. For pyros the big opener goes IM-> RS-> EXdart/therm-> rocketp-> FB -> RS. Thats 6 abilities which won't shave off more then a third of any decently geared maras health unless the pyro blew every offensive CD and buff.

 

Drop the hyperbole, buffed up roid-rails will hit for 6k at the very most and even then so it isn't so much more then car/coms ravage equally buffed.

 

The difference in mitigation between medium and heavy is minimal, our defensive CDs blow (and have equal or longer cooldowns), and we actually have to worry about our resource pool in prolonged battles.

 

Pyrotechs are a melee (unless you consider rapid shots to be game-winning damage) class with lackluster defenses and no practical abilities to disengage from combat beyond death.

 

Marauders have superior resource longevity, greater mobility, better gap closers, the absoloute best defensive cooldowns, excellent sustained damage comparable to unbuffed pts, AND are able to specc for a fair amount of utility without compromising much in terms of offensive power.

 

Don't misunderstand, I myself see no need to nerf marauders (or at least not to the degree that the unwashed masses seem keen on) but lets dispense with the super defensive mental gymnastics crap here.

 

The very fact that you have to theorycraft for weakness is probably a solid indicator that something awry.

[Xerain]

Well, when you say it that way... and considering mercs are pretty much turrets in arsenal, and lightning sorcs have to stay still for almost all their damage- and even madness sorcs rely heavily on force lightning for damage and procs... yes, leth snipers do have the ability to move more while attacking than other range classes- though that makes them an easy target for leaps.

 

They are still lacking quite a bit when it comes to escapes and actual mobility buffs- decent CC only takes them so far- and they have far less upfront damage as the penalty for their mobility compared to a cover based sniper.

 

They're also still less mobile than anything but mercs and non tank PTs when they actually want to move- and considerably less mobile than most melee classes.

 

All three specs you're talking about can be pretty mobile and keep damage off of them pretty well but they have to give up doing LOLDAMAGE. It's just like playing a hunter in WoW, they weren't extremely mobile in TBC but I could still kite any melee class around and kill them.

[LiveandDieinLA]

I can get off 3 globals at 0, 1.5 and 3 seconds- not going to happen. In 6 seconds- so 0, 1.5, 3, 4.5, 6- 5 GCDs, I'll have rupture off of leap at the start of the fight (unless I deem my leap more important for later)- 1.5k plus 2.5k plus 3-4k damage off crit dots plus another 1.5k off deadly saber (9.5k off the first attack, spread over the next 6-8 second due to dots- which shouldn't be a shock as this is a dots build), vicious slash plus retaliation- 2.5k+2k, with a well timed retaliation another deadly saber stack (about 14k by the second GCD)- of course this is assuming they haven't tried to get away with something like sprint- which will indeed add time because I'd likely counter sprint with force choke to waste their sprint while letting dots tick- if not, throw in battering assault for 1-1.5k if I need some rage, another deadly saber on that or the next one- finish with an annihilate for 5k or so- we're looking at a potential total of 22k damage.

 

 

Naturally, that's only potential, with the idea that I'm using my CDs, relics, adrenals, etc... and I've got full fury and rage- but, there's a few classes that are not going to touch 22k in 6-8 seconds, potential or not... and, frankly, most of the people I face have 15k health, so 22k is pretty unneeded- 15k in 6-8 seconds is quite possible in a match, at the point where it'll happen a few times a game where I'll flatten someone in under 10 seconds.

 

Are the fanfics in your signature as good as this one?

 

"I'll have rupture off of leap at the start of the fight (unless I deem my leap more important for later)- 1.5k plus 2.5k plus 3-4k damage off crit dots plus another 1.5k off deadly saber (9.5k off the first attack, spread over the next 6-8 second due to dots- which shouldn't be a shock as this is a dots build)"

 

On what planet is this one GCD?

 

What dots are doing 3-4 k damage ? ( you specify that deadly saber is doing different damage) Are you saying that Rupture does 3,00 damage?

 

But most importantly, Where do you buy your drugs?

[fungihoujo]

All three specs you're talking about can be pretty mobile and keep damage off of them pretty well but they have to give up doing LOLDAMAGE. It's just like playing a hunter in WoW, they weren't extremely mobile in TBC but I could still kite any melee class around and kill them.

 

Giving up loldamage is a problem- and I don't have to as a marauder when I can stay on someone- which is most of the time.

 

Most objectives have convenient LoS points which really benefit me as a marauder.

 

When we have wide open spaces and death matches without any pillars- maybe I can see kiting being the place to be then. Until then- I don't see too many situations where I'd let myself be kited in this game- except for following healers around pillars so they can't keep healing up and sending pot shots at someone trying to cap the VS door.

[Xerain]

Giving up loldamage is a problem- and I don't have to as a marauder when I can stay on someone- which is most of the time.

 

Most objectives have convenient LoS points which really benefit me as a marauder.

 

When we have wide open spaces and death matches without any pillars- maybe I can see kiting being the place to be then. Until then- I don't see too many situations where I'd let myself be kited in this game- except for following healers around pillars so they can't keep healing up and sending pot shots at someone trying to cap the VS door.

 

No that is not a problem. That's how you counter a melee when you're playing a ranged. You don't get to stand there and let them beat you in the face then cry nerf because they outdamaged you. You damage them while taking no damage, it's a very fair trade.

 

You don't get 30m range + awesome defense + awesome damage. Each ranged class has plenty of stuff to put damage on someone and stay out of melee range in this game. Learn to use your tools against a marauder and you're fine.

[fungihoujo]

Are the fanfics in your signature as good as this one?

 

"I'll have rupture off of leap at the start of the fight (unless I deem my leap more important for later)- 1.5k plus 2.5k plus 3-4k damage off crit dots plus another 1.5k off deadly saber (9.5k off the first attack, spread over the next 6-8 second due to dots- which shouldn't be a shock as this is a dots build)"

 

On what planet is this one GCD?

 

What dots are doing 3-4 k damage ? ( you specify that deadly saber is doing different damage) Are you saying that Rupture does 3,00 damage?

 

But most importantly, Where do you buy your drugs?

 

I dunno- is a 1.5k crit off leap, 2.5k rupture crit, and 3-4 k dot crits off of rupture so bizarre? Try counting the damage your rupture dot totals to with berserk up. Let's see, six ticks to be 3k would mean 500 crits off rupture- you are saying then it's impossible to get 500 damage crits off rupture ticks with all your CDs blown?

 

I'll take your word for it.

[Odahviin]

No that is not a problem. That's how you counter a melee when you're playing a ranged. You don't get to stand there and let them beat you in the face then cry nerf because they outdamaged you. You damage them while taking no damage, it's a very fair trade.

 

You don't get 30m range + awesome defense + awesome damage. Each ranged class has plenty of stuff to put damage on someone and stay out of melee range in this game. Learn to use your tools against a marauder and you're fine.

 

Logical thinking is our problem dude.

 

The majority appear to think that you can't kite / damage in this game.

Edited May 13, 2012 by Odahviin

[fungihoujo]

No that is not a problem. That's how you counter a melee when you're playing a ranged. You don't get to stand there and let them beat you in the face then cry nerf because they outdamaged you. You damage them while taking no damage, it's a very fair trade.

 

You don't get 30m range + awesome defense + awesome damage. Each ranged class has plenty of stuff to put damage on someone and stay out of melee range in this game. Learn to use your tools against a marauder and you're fine.

 

Naw- I feel pretty good just being a marauder and not having any sorts of problems killing ranged classes. Now, normally I wouldn't roll melee classes- I was pretty bad as a rogue in WoW, no lie- but really having no problem destroying anything I cross as a marauder in this game.

 

30m range meant something back in games where melee classes didn't have so many gap closers, defensives and CC- when I have a low CD leap, root, perma snare, stealth closer, and numerous defensives- range loses its meaning.

 

Especially when in other games ranged tended to have repeatable CC abilities- like fear, frost bolts, sheep being without CD, etc... and, also ranged tended to have the highest burst in the game- yeah, crazy, squishy ranged classes actually hitting hard.

 

In 6 seconds, 12 seconds, 30 seconds- however long, I'm going to out damage a sorc as a marauder- by a massive margin. I wouldn't take a sorc in a ranked game unless he was heal specced- their damage spec is terrible where it counts, and objectives rely heavily on being able to do a lot of damage fast, while preventing as much enemy healing as possible- sorcs do neither, marauders do both.

[HurricaneXXIV]

Naw- I feel pretty good just being a marauder and not having any sorts of problems killing ranged classes. Now, normally I wouldn't roll melee classes- I was pretty bad as a rogue in WoW, no lie- but really having no problem destroying anything I cross as a marauder in this game.

 

30m range meant something back in games where melee classes didn't have so many gap closers, defensives and CC- when I have a low CD leap, root, perma snare, stealth closer, and numerous defensives- range loses its meaning.

 

 

You have 1 12 second leap and 1 vanish that can act as a gap closer. You play anihilation which is by far the most common spec. I'm not sure why you think you have such a large amount of gap closers that can't be countered by 1 or 2 people in an organized situation.

Edited May 13, 2012 by HurricaneXXIV

[fungihoujo]

You have 1 12 second leap and 1 vanish that can act as a gap closer. You play anihilation which is by far the most common spec. I'm not sure why you think you have such a large amount of gap closers that can't be countered by 1 or 2 people in an organized situation.

 

Between them and defensive CDs I can be extremely hard to hit/lock down for a long period of time- while also dishing out death rapidly.

 

You're right though- sometimes two people can keep me countered- heck, I met a pair of players who actually managed to kill me right after I killed the first of them in the last WZ- I didn't even damage the second player. So, yes, it does happen sometimes.

 

Marauders- worth 2 of any other class.