Sentinel/Marauder - The Problem is NOT DPS.

[Blloodbane]

Nope sounds like a 31/7/3 spec.

 

So explain this specc to me that has the best of everything please... in that was the post I was refering too that made wild exagerrated claims...

[WildcardHatesYou]

Conspiracy? No. Psychological ramification of melee DPS? Yes.

 

What happens right in front of you leaves a stronger impression than that which does not. Period.

 

Look at the scoreboard at the end of each WZ. I know scoreboards don't mean anything, except when they do...

 

Marauders don't put out more damage than other DPS specd classes on average. Are they top of the DPS board often? Sure. So are PTs, Sorcs, Assasins, and even Juggs and snipers on occasion.

 

Marauders don't die less than other classes. You look at the totals at the end of the match, more often than not they lead in deaths as often as they lead in kills.

 

The difference is when a Marauder kills you he is in your face, and that leaves a stronger impression than when you hear 3 explosions and your toon is dead. When he pops UR right as you're about to kill him, you notice, because he was in your face and you swore you were about to kill him, and it makes you want to pull your hair out. People remember they were about to kill a Marauder and didn't. They don't stop to think they reached that point much faster than they would against a healer, tank, or anyone stunning you 17 times.

 

All these nerf Marauder threads have a central theme, and that is people sharing anecdotal feedback about 1v1 fights, listing and comparing individual defensive CD's, talking about ravage doing 30k crits, basically a list of every single personal experience they have had against a class that is designed for 1v1 fighting.

 

What these threads do NOT include, is evidence of Marauders or Sentinels having a greater impact on winning or losing a WZ compared to any other class.

 

If you are right, you don't have to worry about a nerf then, do you?

Edited May 12, 2012 by Parali
bad quotes

[Blloodbane]

If you are right, you don't have to worry about a nerf then, do you?

 

 

A Nerf to a particular class? No I don't actually..

 

Because if you believed the forums, everyone is qq'ing about something being OP and needing nerfing.

 

Then it comes down to the class saying as a rebuttal either L2P or your a baddie...

 

Then it comes back to overblown exagerations or lumping of abilities together as a reason to get the class Nerfed.

[Odahviin]

Conspiracy? No. Psychological ramification of melee DPS? Yes.

 

What happens right in front of you leaves a stronger impression than that which does not. Period.

 

Look at the scoreboard at the end of each WZ. I know scoreboards don't mean anything, except when they do...

 

Marauders don't put out more damage than other DPS specd classes on average. Are they top of the DPS board often? Sure. So are PTs, Sorcs, Assasins, and even Juggs and snipers on occasion.

 

Marauders don't die less than other classes. You look at the totals at the end of the match, more often than not they lead in deaths as often as they lead in kills.

 

The difference is when a Marauder kills you he is in your face, and that leaves a stronger impression than when you hear 3 explosions and your toon is dead. When he pops UR right as you're about to kill him, you notice, because he was in your face and you swore you were about to kill him, and it makes you want to pull your hair out. People remember they were about to kill a Marauder and didn't. They don't stop to think they reached that point much faster than they would against a healer, tank, or anyone stunning you 17 times.

 

All these nerf Marauder threads have a central theme, and that is people sharing anecdotal feedback about 1v1 fights, listing and comparing individual defensive CD's, talking about ravage doing 30k crits, basically a list of every single personal experience they have had against a class that is designed for 1v1 fighting.

 

What these threads do NOT include, is evidence of Marauders or Sentinels having a greater impact on winning or losing a WZ compared to any other class.

 

Your sound logic and reasoning will fly right over their frothing heads.

 

it's called a witch hunt for a reason.

[LiveandDieinLA]

If you are right, you don't have to worry about a nerf then, do you?

 

People have been crying for a nerf to Tank shadows for way longer than the sent QQ. Bioware doesn't rely on forum QQ to determine balance. I mean, have you ever seen a dev post in these forums? You think the devs read this garbage?

[Blloodbane]

People have been crying for a nerf to Tank shadows for way longer than the sent QQ. Bioware doesn't rely on forum QQ to determine balance. I mean, have you ever seen a dev post in these forums? You think the devs read this garbage?

 

Albeit VERY rare, yes they have posted in here...

 

BUT, you are right, 90% if the post they dont bother replying too... and also correct about QQ nerfs priot to 1.2

 

Just now, a ne thread about troopers being OP or not, which basically means they are looking for an agreement of it being too powerful...

 

People dont get it... Mara/Sents, while did recieve some love the biggest change was expertise.

[Humankeg]

Powertechs have a grapple, Taunts and AoE cc. They have way better utility than Maras.

 

Marauder utility is a joke. No Guard, no taunt, no knockback, no healing (watchman heals dont really count. IIm talking about real healing. My 50 commando can throw out 4-5k crit heals when dps specced.

 

How does popping transcendence maybe once or twice and 30 seconds of inspiration in an entire game give Maras better utility than a class that can taunt, guard, or heal?

 

Grapple/taunt is also part of an assassins's arsenal. Plus assassins have the ability to guard another player (a decent pyro will not run with the gas cylinder that allows them to guard), plus they are much more mobile than pt's, have much better defensive cool downs, can stealth, and self heal.

 

Yes pt's can do more damage and a lot more burst, but in Huttball Assassin's blow PT's out of the water, and assassins are MUCH better are defending turrets in CW (because of their superior 1vs1 ability).

 

Maruders have much better utility than PT's, have MUCH MUCH better defensive cool downs, are WAY more mobile than pt's, do more sustained damage, less burst damage.

 

Please do not mention "guard" when talking about PT's, as no self respecting pt will ever use guard; that spec was completely gutted.

[Exiled-Phoenix]

best offensive with the best defensive cooldowns. thats the problem

 

Not to mention best gap closer

[Humankeg]

I disagree. Needs some ranged deeps. piling your team with 1 class is just going to make a bigger hole in your weakness.

 

And I disagree. With the way marauders and assassins are balanced right now, a team doesn'e need to balance melee/range.

 

Yeah any WZ team without a sorc is boned in huttball.

 

Not really. But I also did state that having a single sorc on the team would be alright (healing sorc). The defensive cool downs that marauders and assassins have negate a lot of the issues you would come across by not having a sorc on the team.

[LiveandDieinLA]

Grapple/taunt is also part of an assassins's arsenal. Plus assassins have the ability to guard another player (a decent pyro will not run with the gas cylinder that allows them to guard), plus they are much more mobile than pt's, have much better defensive cool downs, can stealth, and self heal.

 

Yes pt's can do more damage and a lot more burst, but in Huttball Assassin's blow PT's out of the water, and assassins are MUCH better are defending turrets in CW (because of their superior 1vs1 ability).

 

Maruders have much better utility than PT's, have MUCH MUCH better defensive cool downs, are WAY more mobile than pt's, do more sustained damage, less burst damage.

 

Please do not mention "guard" when talking about PT's, as no self respecting pt will ever use guard; that spec was completely gutted.

 

No arguement about Tank assassins from me. They are the best spec in the game for pvp, like you said. Great utility, great survivability, good damage, stealth, all that.

 

But I would trade transcendace for taunts in a second. And there are still people who play Tank PT and do it damn well. Pts have a better snare, better CC, enemy pulls.

 

Untility wise I don;t see how you can argue that a Mara is better than a PT.

 

And yes Marauders have better defensive CDs, but PT have offensive CDs instead. That's why they are able to put out so much more damage than a Marauder.

 

I queue up with a Pyro PT and no matter how much damage I do he is always ahead of me by a not insignificant margin. I hade a 600k damge game the other day, thought I might have had him, but he did 725.

 

Marauders, even with their CDS, don't match PT damage now, what would it look like if you took away the Mara's survivability and left the PT the same? The gap would get even wider!

 

Marauder damage is back loaded. We cant just run up to someone and chain crit them into oblivion, we need to ramp up to deal damage, and thats why Marauders need their defensive cds, and Powertechs don't.

 

 

 

EDIT:

No cooldown can replace a sage's rescue abiliy in huttball. They are worth bringing if only for that.

Edited May 12, 2012 by LiveandDieinLA

[Heideggar]

It's a good thing we have people like you who still believe that force and tech attacks means it's not mitigated by armour. Most force attacks are ENERGY, which is indeed affected by armour.

 

Force lightning, chain lightning, lightning storm, lightning strike, shock- ENERGY. It's mostly dots that are internal/elemental- and a good chunk of pyrotech abilities too. It's actually a rather small amount of abilities that deal internal/elemental- take sorcs, their internal damage comes from affliction, which is a very slow acting dot, creeping terror which is there for the root and does pitiful damage- and death field which does hit hard- every 15 seconds (around 3-4k on a crit, up to 5k with best gear/adrenals popped).

 

The main class that'll ignore most of your armour is the pyrotech- with all their fire abilities and dots... even then, weapon, energy and kinetic damage make up far more percentage of damage than internal/elemental ever will- and since a good chunk of internal/elemental is dots, it's easy to cleanse and does slower damage that's much easier to be healed through/react to/kill them before the dots get you.

 

Just because your use force to cast those abilities doesn't make them force attacks. You'll need to go to your skills tab and look at which are defined as force abilities.

 

You forgot a strong force attack in your sorcerer's rotation too.

 

Come back when you've looked at that tab again. You need to bone up on some things.

[FaDedBriLLianCe]

Not all, just the 95% of people who don't understand how Sentinels and Marauders work. The 5% who do understand can deal with them pretty easily. Which, as you correctly pointed out, does not include you at this point in time. They're just annoying and require a bit more attention than most other classes, that's all.

 

Here's a tip for you: if you see half of their health disappear from your mediocre attack, don't get excited and blow your best attack right after that, mezz them for 5 sec instead. This simple trick will negate 90% of sent/maras out there.

 

And here's another tip for you: most of the MMOs die because of catering to nerf whiners too much. Be careful what you wish for.

 

Peace.....

 

This guy knows what's up, but another thing from my input as a marauder for all the people sayin we're over/underpowered. Of course we have the highest Dps in game (as long as we spac Annihilation) we are a strictly Dps class. We have no tank option like assasins/bounty hunters which is why we get medium armor. The only Dps that really stands toe to toe with us would be Mercenary's and sniper's. but alot of people suck with the marauders. it's a complex class where you have to time your bleed attacks, defense attacks, and the few CC's we have to do it right. Those saying we're squishy. No not at all. A well played marauder can be the one thing that you dont want to run into. High burst dps, followed by 4 stacks of bleed, and a force choke will kill damn near everything. To many people are just idiots and try to attack droups of 3+. 1v1 marauder's almost always win, 1v2 maybe if your geared well. anything above that and your just an easy target

[fungihoujo]

Just because your use force to cast those abilities doesn't make them force attacks. You'll need to go to your skills tab and look at which are defined as force abilities.

 

You forgot a strong force attack in your sorcerer's rotation too.

 

Come back when you've looked at that tab again. You need to bone up on some things.

 

Good lord- way to completely not understand. Here, I will simplify it for you.

 

When it comes to MITIGATION- which is what we were talking about- there is no damage reduction stat for FORCE ATTACKS.

 

There are FOUR damage reduction types- these are ENERGY, KINETIC, INTERNAL and ELEMENTAL.

 

Since energy/kinetic have the same mitigation, and internal/elemental have the same mitigation, they're pretty much those two areas when it comes to mitigating damage- NOTE THAT THERE IS NO SPACE THAT SAYS "FORCE DAMAGE"- check your character sheet if you don't believe me.

 

Energy/Kinetic is mitigated by armour- if we're talking about sorcs, we're talking about all lightning abilities which are energy- lightning strike, force lightning, shock, lightning storm, chain lightning- we're also talking about kinetic abilities- so crushing darkness- ALL OF THESE ABILITIES ARE MITIGATED BY ARMOUR, REGARDLESS OF YOU THINKING BECAUSE THEY USE THE FORCE THAT THEY MUST SOMEHOW IGNORE ARMOUR- NO, YOU ARE WRONG.

 

Internal/Elemental is mitigated by a few talents- and you get 10% from buffs. So these are mitigated less- for sorcs we're talking affliction, death field and creeping terror- or perhaps thundering blast if you decided to gimp yourself and go lightning. The max you can get though- is three abilities, two of which are low damage dots.

 

Learn what mitigation means before you start trying to talk smack about 'force attacks', like that's remotely relevant.

 

Force damage bonus refers solely to the offensive bonus to your attacks gained by power, force power and willpower stats- it has ZERO to do with the defensive side of it, and similarly being a 'force attack' means zip when it comes to defensive stats- this isn't even hard to find- it's on your character sheet, the most accessable thing in the game.

 

Check this stuff before talking next time.

[stephenalandavie]

Shouldnt these defensive cooldowns be given to the juggernaut given that he is defensive based? or should i say should be? lol

[Odahviin]

Shouldnt these defensive cooldowns be given to the juggernaut given that he is defensive based? or should i say should be? lol

 

No, good juggs are unstoppable already. If you gave them UR as well you would never be able to kill em at all

 

contary to popular belief the AC's in this game are incrediably balanced. What people are actually struggling with are the changes to expertise and the new TTK.

 

if we are to use anecdotal evidence, we can just ask ourselves why prior to 1.2 hardly anyone ever complained about mara / sent AC's, in most cases it was the opposite the forums were crying for buffs.

Edited May 13, 2012 by Odahviin

[fungihoujo]

No, good juggs are unstoppable already. If you gave them UR as well you would never be able to kill em at all

 

contary to popular belief the AC's in this game are incrediably balanced. What people are actually struggling with are the changes to expertise and the new TTK.

 

if we are to use anecdotal evidence, we can just ask ourselves why prior to 1.2 hardly anyone ever complained about mara / sent AC's, in most cases it was the opposite the forums were crying for buffs.

 

How is TTK balanced when some classes in WH gear can kill someone in 6 seconds- while other ACs might take up to 20? You can't heal someone through 25k damage in 10 seconds- no heals are that good, especially if the healer is the target and thus eating stuns/interrupts.

 

The TTK is only 'balanced' when it's recruit/BM geared players.

[Guioki]

No, good juggs are unstoppable already. If you gave them UR as well you would never be able to kill em at all

 

contary to popular belief the AC's in this game are incrediably balanced. What people are actually struggling with are the changes to expertise and the new TTK.

 

if we are to use anecdotal evidence, we can just ask ourselves why prior to 1.2 hardly anyone ever complained about mara / sent AC's, in most cases it was the opposite the forums were crying for buffs.

 

Your right and your wrong.

 

Yes the expertise buff did have something to do with it, and the smaller TTK. I think everything was balanced pre 1.2 but now there is one main class that benefited from the patch, the mara. In a game with a TTK of about 10 seconds against a non tank, a mara has a cooldown that will let it live an additional 5 seconds against any amount of people, and a second CD which will let it reset again when getting focused.

 

Pyro PT, no matter what he does his effective HP wont exceed about 25k (hp x 1.25 (shield) x 1.28 (armor)).

Sorc has roughly the same (hp x 1.19 (armor) + 3500 (bubble)),

Mara gets 36k EHP before you even add GBTF or Force camo in (hp x 1.24 (armor) x 1.2 (rebuke) x 1.37 (about half way betteen 1.25/1.5 for sabre ward))

 

And the mara is the one that gets the true escape, how is that balanced?

[Odahviin]

How is TTK balanced when some classes in WH gear can kill someone in 6 seconds- while other ACs might take up to 20? You can't heal someone through 25k damage in 10 seconds- no heals are that good, especially if the healer is the target and thus eating stuns/interrupts.

 

The TTK is only 'balanced' when it's recruit/BM geared players.

 

What your talking about is a separate issue to the mara / sent class itself.

[Xerain]

Your right and your wrong.

 

Yes the expertise buff did have something to do with it, and the smaller TTK. I think everything was balanced pre 1.2 but now there is one main class that benefited from the patch, the mara. In a game with a TTK of about 10 seconds against a non tank, a mara has a cooldown that will let it live an additional 5 seconds against any amount of people, and a second CD which will let it reset again when getting focused.

 

Pyro PT, no matter what he does his effective HP wont exceed about 25k (hp x 1.25 (shield) x 1.28 (armor)).

Sorc has roughly the same (hp x 1.19 (armor) + 3500 (bubble)),

Mara gets 36k EHP before you even add GBTF or Force camo in (hp x 1.24 (armor) x 1.2 (rebuke) x 1.37 (about half way betteen 1.25/1.5 for sabre ward))

 

And the mara is the one that gets the true escape, how is that balanced?

 

Uh all dps gained a benefit from the expertise change so how can you you even say only the marauder gained an advantage?

 

And if only it worked like that stupid bit of math you threw up there. Really at that bias. "oh i'll just add in everything for marauder to make my argument look more valid and leave everything out for everyone else!"

[Odahviin]

Your right and your wrong.

 

Yes the expertise buff did have something to do with it, and the smaller TTK. I think everything was balanced pre 1.2 but now there is one main class that benefited from the patch, the mara. In a game with a TTK of about 10 seconds against a non tank, a mara has a cooldown that will let it live an additional 5 seconds against any amount of people, and a second CD which will let it reset again when getting focused.

 

Pyro PT, no matter what he does his effective HP wont exceed about 25k (hp x 1.25 (shield) x 1.28 (armor)).

Sorc has roughly the same (hp x 1.19 (armor) + 3500 (bubble)),

Mara gets 36k EHP before you even add GBTF or Force camo in (hp x 1.24 (armor) x 1.2 (rebuke) x 1.37 (about half way betteen 1.25/1.5 for sabre ward))

 

And the mara is the one that gets the true escape, how is that balanced?

 

Why are you comparing AC's in this manner?

 

by your reasoning all the classes should have the exact same cool downs.

 

there are differences between the AC's for a reason. Further to this you are discounting a extrememly basic principle I shouldn't have to explain range.

 

mara / sents have the extra defensive cooldown because they are a squishy melee class. They can't kite and do damage at range it's a trafe off. Without it's cooldowns it would never survive the melee slugfest long enough to actually DPS.

 

why do you think the operative doesn't get force speed like the assasin? it's because they have range abilities.

 

Good examples are cap points in wz objectives, how often do you see a team of commandos and sorcs in voidstar sitting in the middle between doors interrupting bomb planters? they just need to shuffle a few meters between point A and point B and interrupt from range. What melee class can do that?

 

If people continue to look at the AC's from their defensive cooldown list as opposed to their actual role and ability within a wz it will always look unbalanced.

 

big picture people we really should have to spell this out.

Edited May 13, 2012 by Odahviin

[Derian]

Why are you comparing AC's in this manner?

 

by your reasoning all the classes should have the exact same cool downs.

 

there are differences between the AC's for a reason. Further to this you are discounting a extrememly basic principle I shouldn't have to explain range.

 

mara / sents have the extra defensive cooldown because they are a squishy melee class. They can't kite and do damage at range it's a trafe off. Without it's cooldowns it would never survive the melee slugfest long enough to actually DPS.

 

why do you think the operative doesn't get force speed like the assasin? it's because they have range abilities.

 

Good examples are cap points in wz objectives, how often do you see a team of commandos and sorcs in voidstar sitting in the middle between doors interrupting bomb planters? they just need to shuffle a few meters between point A and point B and interrupt from range. What melee class can do that?

 

If people continue to look at the AC's from their defensive cooldown list as opposed to their actual role and ability within a wz it will always look unbalanced.

 

big picture people we really should have to spell this out.

 

Great post. People need to look at actually winning.

[fungihoujo]

What your talking about is a separate issue to the mara / sent class itself.

 

That's like saying the 30% trauma debuff is something separate from sorc, ops or merc healers- it isn't, it's an issue that directly effects them, much like the quicker TTK massively effects marauders.

 

 

Let's say that before, where there was a slower TTK- it might take a character 15 seconds to kill another. If a marauder were to say, pop undying during that- they get 5 seconds out of 15 where they're immune to damage and wailing on an enemy. That doesn't seem so bad does it? They can charge into a group even with full resolve so they're immune to CC- but they're likely not going to kill someone.

 

If the TTK is 7 seconds though- they can now charge into a group with full resolve, and be immune to damage for a majority of the time it takes to kill someone.

 

You can't tell me that a class having a total immunity ability in a game where they can kill someone in 7 seconds is no different from someone having total immunity for 5 seconds when it takes them 15 seconds to get a kill. There's no scaling on total immunity. And that's just one ability. A marauder is the most mobile damage dealer in the game before you even touch their defensive CDs and stealth.

[Guioki]

Uh all dps gained a benefit from the expertise change so how can you you even say only the marauder gained an advantage?

 

And if only it worked like that stupid bit of math you threw up there. Really at that bias. "oh i'll just add in everything for marauder to make my argument look more valid and leave everything out for everyone else!"

 

Actually i left out abilities for the mara and included every ability for the other 2 classes i used as a comparison.

[fungihoujo]

Why are you comparing AC's in this manner?

 

by your reasoning all the classes should have the exact same cool downs.

 

there are differences between the AC's for a reason. Further to this you are discounting a extrememly basic principle I shouldn't have to explain range.

 

mara / sents have the extra defensive cooldown because they are a squishy melee class. They can't kite and do damage at range it's a trafe off. Without it's cooldowns it would never survive the melee slugfest long enough to actually DPS.

 

why do you think the operative doesn't get force speed like the assasin? it's because they have range abilities.

 

Good examples are cap points in wz objectives, how often do you see a team of commandos and sorcs in voidstar sitting in the middle between doors interrupting bomb planters? they just need to shuffle a few meters between point A and point B and interrupt from range. What melee class can do that?

 

If people continue to look at the AC's from their defensive cooldown list as opposed to their actual role and ability within a wz it will always look unbalanced.

 

big picture people we really should have to spell this out.

 

So basically, because they have some advantages with some objectives- entirely due to terrible objective design- it's ok for those classes to be extremely gimp in actual combat? Balance should never be around objectives- it should be around combat- it's no wonder the balancing in this game is so terrible when people's excuses for brutally nerfed classes being fine is 'well, they can interrupt in VS so it's ok they do no damage', do you not understand there's an attack portion to VS where slowly dotting people and having a 20 second TTK makes you utterly useless compared to a better class with an 8 second TTK? Or that any class that is great 1v1 is also going to be great in a group?

 

The big picture is a group of sorcs and mercs has no f'ing chance of getting a single door in VS down- whereas a group of melee has the damage to manage it.

 

The big picture is objective based pvp as the only option is a terrible choice, and trying to balance with that is going to ruin the game- especially when you have objectives that are small little areas and you're trying to explain that you need to guard that area by always being close to it- to a class that can't manage anything without kiting.

 

Or that you need to kill their team in the 30 seconds before a door spawn with a bunch of sorcs who can hit 5k damage on a lucky crit every 15 seconds- compared to some classes that can hit 5k 3 times in as many GCDs.

 

Marauders are anti kiting pros- you have your choice between a 12 sec CD leap, that leap on 15 sec CD but with two bonus roots and 15% bonus run speed, or having two leaps- plus immunity, plus stealth, plus run speed buffs- and with retaliation and CoP in anni- you can even keep CoP up all the time- giving you the best mitigation in the game even before you consider the best defensive CDs.

 

What part of 'best mitigation and defensive CDs, mobility and gap closers, damage and instant attacks' really strikes you as a squishy class?

[Xerain]

That's like saying the 30% trauma debuff is something separate from sorc, ops or merc healers- it isn't, it's an issue that directly effects them, much like the quicker TTK massively effects marauders.

 

 

Let's say that before, where there was a slower TTK- it might take a character 15 seconds to kill another. If a marauder were to say, pop undying during that- they get 5 seconds out of 15 where they're immune to damage and wailing on an enemy. That doesn't seem so bad does it? They can charge into a group even with full resolve so they're immune to CC- but they're likely not going to kill someone.

 

If the TTK is 7 seconds though- they can now charge into a group with full resolve, and be immune to damage for a majority of the time it takes to kill someone.

 

You can't tell me that a class having a total immunity ability in a game where they can kill someone in 7 seconds is no different from someone having total immunity for 5 seconds when it takes them 15 seconds to get a kill. There's no scaling on total immunity. And that's just one ability. A marauder is the most mobile damage dealer in the game before you even touch their defensive CDs and stealth.

 

Too bad TTK is not cut in half. That's an IF, no one is dying in 7 seconds period from one person. TTK is not that bad so lets not make crap up and then go boo hoo nerf nerf nerf.