Infiltration survivability (pvp)

[kitfoxtrot]

I enjoy infiltration and tried many different versions (2/318, 5/36/x etc) but man talk about a paper doll.

 

I'm sitting @ 18k+ hp aug'd everything except pants and all wh (minus generator & relics). I can't really see anyway to work this spec for more survivability, changing out for defensive gear would just make it a gimptastic kc.

 

Any ideas for a fair defensive ability we could get? Yea, we have deflection but on 2min cd, force cloak is nice but 1min timer (other jobs get similar ability but lower cast time~45sec).

 

Usually try to pick my fights out of stealth with a stun rotation, which helps but if its more than one well geared person, I drop faster than a sorc/sage lol.

 

 

*edit (not using wh relics)

Edited May 10, 2012 by kitfoxtrot

[Domiinick]

I won't say I have first hand knowledge, but I'm pretty sure that's how Infil was designed; High burst, low survivability.

[MiaRB]

30% reduce damage from AOEs, +15% combat speed, +30% armor, 2% damage reduction from all sources.

 

run all PVP gear.

 

learn when best to use your def bubble, resiliance, steath.

 

always be moving, i dont mean just strafe left, strafe right.

 

make use of LOS vs ranged attacks.

 

use your CCs... especially low strike.

 

make sure you are not dumping all your acc and crit to foolishly boost power. the best way to survive is being able to kill the other team fast. you cant do that with low acc and low critestrike.

Edited May 10, 2012 by MiaRB

[punktual]

I recently started using my shadow for pvp (mostly pve player) but ive been doing supprisingly well and am often in the top 3 medal scorers in warzones (and only have 2 BM peices of gear at the moment).

 

Yes you are squishy and thats fine. You are a hit and run player.

Use forcespeed or stealth to catch a player buy suprise burn relics, cool downs, adrenals etc and destroy your prey before they know whats hit them. If you get in heat use cloak to disapear. Cloack is also usefull to lose your attackers target for a second. That second where they have to tab/click to get back on your target can mean the difference between life and death. use low slash and stun to impair your oponents movement as much as possible. Use stealth and cloak to find safe spots to quickly heal up before getting back into it.

 

Avoid big groups with lots of full health players, you will die.

Instead pick off healers on the edges and lure them out of the group. The exception to this is a big group with a load of players on half health or below. You can destroy a lot of players quickly in this situation.

 

tl;dr : Burn relics/cool downs, disapear, heal up, repeat.

[Xinika]

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tl;dr : Burn relics/cool downs, disapear, heal up, repeat.

 

Problem with this logic is that you are useless to the team whilst you run away.

[kitfoxtrot]

Don't get me wrong- I know how to play; los'ing, relics, adrenals I use those on all my jobs. Force cloak mid fight if I notice more than one person on me and reenter fight (or for a gap closer), stun rotations, and try to pick my fights- all those tricks.

 

No I don't run into the middle and expect to be king, and as stated in a previous build I've done the ones with all the damage mitigation forms for infiltration.

 

The burst damage is really stellar when cd are up but then again so are most dps jobs/trees.

 

I guess the best way I can put it is, if I were to make a pvp dream team- an infiltration shadow wouldn't be on it lol. It's good for a very small number of pvp objectives that can be done by other jobs (if not better) with better survivability.

[Boarg]

As long as your playstyle is already good for avoiding damage and danger, and you have PvP gear...

 

Next step is probably spec tweaking. Infiltration for PvP really needs to take Kinetic Field+Shadowy Veil+Jedi Resistance in order to have "functional" levels of survivability. Each of the talents are stronger taken together than individually, and are a very noticeable improvement when you take all of them. They put you better off than most Scrapper Scoundrels for survivability.

 

And I don't recommend putting any points in Kinetic tree for a PvP spec...there just aren't enough points to go around to waste on their low value first tier talents considering other options in Infiltration and Balance trees. You should probably be running a 0/33/8.

 

And then...really still examine your playstyle. Tactical movement can be huge for reducing incoming damage. I do a lot of squirrely movements and jousting with melee that keeps them from having the facing/range they need consistently. (Not having auto-attack in this game really opens up the possibilities.) People really tend to under-rate using LoS against ranged, too. Trying to just wear your targets doesn't work that well, especially for Infiltration.

 

Because of the movement stuff, Subduing Techniques is also a talent that can decrease incoming damage (as well as increase damage output) because consistently maintaining a movement speed advantage against opponents (or preventing them from gaining one at least) allows you to screw with their facing, range, LoS, etc. It's one of the best PvP talents in the tree.

Edited May 11, 2012 by Boarg

[kitfoxtrot]

The main reason for putting points into kc was not having 8 left over to put into project after capping out veil & kinetic field and testing that spec out. If you cap out veil + kinetic field and the useful dps stuff in infiltration tree that puts you around 36 leaving 5 left, not enough to 8 cap extra project in balance. It's not the spec I always run but does well, I'd say a notable boost to cvs dmg.

 

Jedi Resistance is a joke and don't count on it for survivability there are only points in it to get to upheaval when I run that spec. Even if there was some mega power move that hit me for 18k hp Jedi resistance would save me~ 360 dmg.

 

Tactical movement and all that jazz, yes I get what you're saying but it's nothing special to infiltration by any means. These are player skill sets that can be used and applied to other trees/jobs. Jobs with better defensive abilities can use these tactics all the same~

 

It's mostly just a bummer because I'd love to play the spec more but just don't find it viable with no self heals and one defensive ability on a 2min cool down. It's an upfront damage job that can't really survive upfront.

[Boarg]

Well, I'll give an example of some of these talent values…

 

Jedi Resistance seems like a +1% survivability per point skill at face value, but it's actually a little better than that because it is additive with armor and resistances instead of multiplicative. So, lets say you have 23% armor without it (Shadowy Veil) and then with it it's 23+2 = 25%. You're going from taking 77% damage to 75%...that's a decrease of 2.67% compared to not having it. And then there's stacking with our class buff on internal/elemental types of damage…going from taking 90% damage to 88% damage. 2.27% reduction. Weight it with a damage taken profile…

 

(2.67*0.8+2.27*0.2)/2= ~1.3% increase in survivability per skill point.

 

In Kinetic, we have Applied Force. CS accounts for roughly 18 to 20% of overall damage.

 

(0.2*0.06)/2= ~0.6% increase in damage output per skill point.

 

So, what's better? +0.6% to damage output, or +1.3% to survivability, which is also a major area of need in the spec?

 

Technique Mastery is in a similar boat…it's better than Applied force against Heavy and Tank armored targets, but as bad or worse against Medium and Light armor targets.

 

And Shadowy Veil is better than Jedi Resistance (closer to 2% per point) and Kinetic Field is even better than SV, generally speaking.

 

 

And, yeah…putting something like 36 points into Infiltration is a tough swallow. Upheaval is really good, and probably worth making a few tough cuts in Infiltration tree where necessary. Personally, after playing tons of Infiltration and trying lots of different things, I've ended up with this as my favorite variation:

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#601ZGGbRkGbbtzZf0c.1

 

Basically, I pass on Security Breach and Fade to get SV, KF, and Subduing Techniques. Fade is the one I feel like I miss sometimes, but it's only sometimes. Having those other talents that help all the time has been working better for me.

 

 

You're right, all the tactical movement stuff is basic PvP and helps anyone. But, it's still even more important for success for a relatively squishy melee spec than it is for a tank spec with self heals like Kinetic or something like a Sentinal that can brute force their way with defensive cooldowns and such.

 

 

Anyway, with the way I've been playing Infiltration anymore with the spec, gear, tactics, using control to reduce incoming damage, etc… It's been feeling reasonably durable and I've been having a lot of success with it. No, it's not a world beater…it's not a power spec…it just functions, and it's still my primary spec because it offers closer to the playstyle I'm looking for and enjoy. I get the most WZ wins with it, even though the other two trees often end up looking better on the scoreboard.

[Boarg]

Problem with this logic is that you are useless to the team whilst you run away.

^

 

As much as folks talk about playing hit and run style, it's really more of the exception rather than the norm. It's hard for a team to live without your constant effort in some cases, and sometimes getting away to heal takes even longer than just dying and coming back.

 

Having the lengthy cooldown on Force Cloak really limits our ability to effectively play with that style on a regular basis.

 

What actually can happen more often is kill -> stealth/recover instead of run -> stealth/recover. It's more of success breeding more success instead of turning failure into success.

 

Anymore, I usually end up using Cloak offensively or strategically instead of trying to prevent a death.

[Joshrus]

Biochem can help you.

 

You have to be tactial about your use of the defensive cooldowns and force cloak. For example

Dont use our Defensive increase cooldown vs a mara or sent. They have any ability called repost, it will hurt you it also reduces the cooldown of Rebuke, which reduces their damage taken by 20% and does damage to the attacker. Really if you see them pop that or saber ward force cloak or stun right away. You're gonna get ***** by a half decent sent or mara, if you try to duke it out.

 

Your best bet is to go after targets of opurtunity (low health, straggler) or focus with another dps.

 

thus infiltraters are glass cannons.

[Daiyukie]

Being able to dish out the kind of damage Infil does and wanting more survivability is silly and asking to be OP. See Pyro Powertechs for reference. Have -any- of you played Scrapper? Infil is a not-useless version of Scrapper with a bit more white damage but bigger hits to more than make up for that

[kitfoxtrot]

Biochem is kind of a give in and nothing special to infiltration, any job/tree can get it. And I know I can fish kills by going for weakened targets and the like but if it doesn't have to do with the objective I not too fond of playing death match in pvp and again any dps job can fish kills off of 1/2 dead targets.

 

Infiltration no doubt can dish out good upfront damage. I'm not sure if you've played against other well geared players though because that gap is closed pretty fast. Not to mention any defensive buffs said job might pop- damage takes a nose dive while we get squished out. Yeah infiltration feels pretty op cranking out 5k crits on 14k hp players, different story on well geared players.

 

Pretty interesting build Boarg, might try that out. Bummer on fade and sit awareness tho!