What happened during development!?

[Northarrow]

Sounds like the OP and I played an entirely different Rift

[VegaPhone]

Too much dependence on story as an MMO feature. It took most of their development costs, and therefore should have taken more money to cover their costs.

 

The fact that VO/cinematics took most of their money to make the game into what the game results as with a major IP shows that it is bad management of funds.

 

A lot of fine tuning went into the story, and took up too much time, and was not worth it with the limited money. Before it was 150 million, then 300 million with quotes, and then there was 200 million with quotes again, and now OP is saying 80 million.

 

Even 80 million is not a certain number, and it does not matter what it cost them since its a major IP, and meant to be a cash cow. They just did not put enough money into the game if the story cost them as much as it did. I am guessing 80% of development time went into story. So whatever 20% was worth was not enough to make the game in 4-5 years development time to have more than 3 warzones, more than 2 ops without bugs, custom U.I, better crafting, player housing, pazaak, swoop racing, open world pvp, more exploration, chat bubbles, better engine etc etc

 

I have a suspicion that a lot of the problems came from their custom engine and spending a lot of that 20% of dev time fixing a problem with a, 'reinventing the wheel', mentality of using a completely new engine in the first place. Maybe in a few years when the game engine is finally optimized it would be worth something nice, but they used swtor as an initiative to process a new engine, and that seems risky.

Edited May 11, 2012 by VegaPhone

[Kubernetic]

@ Kubernetic

 

You can't possibly be apologizing for the people that ruined the game that we all wanted to spend the next 5 years playing can you?

 

That is like crapping on someones doorstep, lighting it on fire and then ringing the doorbell to ask if you can borrow some toilet paper.

 

No apologies necessary. I'll simply insert facts where it appears others have overlooked them.

 

"Ruined" is your word, not mine. I reject it as invalid.

 

BTW, you're the one crapping on someone's doorstep. Don't delude yourself.

[Kubernetic]

On this I will support Kubernetic. There is a lot of programming related to VO and intact I think they stated recording in anticipation of expanded content. You can argue whether the amount of voice was worth it or not. I think Kubernetic thinks it is. I enjoyed my leveling experience on my one toon till 50. Can't seem to get anyone interested in helping me put Darth Malgus down so guess I won't know how it ends.

 

I did as much research as I could on the game and it was all in regard to PVP. Which was vastly over hyped as far as emphasis and how good it was.

My issues are client server, that FPS and delays are happening, that I have to do anything with my computer to accomodate the game, loading is a bear and aggravating. And although I have some satisfaction in content of the game --but all I do is WZ endlessly so I am completely nonparticipatory on any other aspect of the game once Ilum was destroyed (cause it couldn't handle people doing what they should be doing in a battlefield). But this game wasn't enough for my guild of 60 excited people who started the game 57 quit effectively halfway through March. And even my limited technical issues remain I PVP I want good response from the game a lot of work, money and time went into it. And even though I know nothing about programming I swear that if I had Star Wars, whatever million dollars and 5 years I would damn sure have a game that would blow people's minds or work myself to death-literally trying. This game needed a year more of work and more due diligence before it's release.

 

I like the animations, light sabers and music when I am killing stuff.

 

And I fully agree that there are some missing pieces, primarily at endgame, that need to be fleshed out in the game. I just think this is part of the early adopter's dilemma. We wanted to play the game right away, and obviously there were some build/add decisions that were made, and adding in endgame options won out over building them out to begin with.

 

From another perspective, it also makes sense for the designers to build the core game and get it out there in working order first, then see what players want, then design endgame elements according to what the actual players tell you they want, rather than just trying to guess in advance.

 

Additionally, I agree that there are some serious performance issues that need to be handled. I get livid every time I'm riding around on a PVP planet and I see my screen pause as I'm getting ganked, while I can do nothing because the stupid engine has frozen everything while it downloads whatever into memory. But they have a team working on optimizing the engine and I trust they haven't yet completed their work, and will continue to eliminate the bottlenecks and fix what needs to be fixed.

 

As to waiting another year, I can't support that thought. I think it's far better that they released the game where they were and started to get real production-level feedback. This game will be a lot better in January than it is now. There's no reason to expect that they would have had any sufficient endgame content just because they waited an extra year to deliver the game. I think we'll reach that end game content much faster now that the game is out.

 

A great example of this is Ohlen's poll threads. We were given a choice of pod racing, vehicle combat, full 3D space combat, and guild capital ships (IIRC) and the user base resoundingly chose full 3D space combat. I'm not sure they could have gathered that kind of intel without having launched the game as widely as they did.

 

Now we're being asked about other planets we want to see from Star Wars lore. We've heard a bit about guild capital ships and we know there's a super-secret "space project" going on somewhere in the depths of BWHQ. I believe all of these are moving forward more quickly now due to the $120 million plus in sales of the game combined with $20 million a month in player revenue...

[adam_wan]

so true.

 

went to alderaan lvl 31, completed class quest, left alderaan still lvl 31.

 

the XP i got from class quests was worth about 0.5 bar, and thats with double XP active.

 

I really do not want to do every side quest on every alt, spacebaring through all that pointless voice actor rubbish. i'd rather PVP.

 

but PVP is broken.

 

explain this.

 

win huttball 6 - 0 within 5 - 10 minutes, I get top of the board, rewarded with 4k XP

lose huttball 1 - 5, full game, this time i'm middle of the board, rewarded with 13k XP

 

PVP was supposed to be fixed in 1.2 but its acting exactly the same just the medals have been reworded.

 

So I ask

 

WHAT IS GOING ON IN DEVELOPMENT??

 

What the....4k exp? Are you sure youre readin that right? I basically pvped my sage to 50 and i remember gettimg 20k+ for wins and 12k+ for losses.

 

On a thread related note...if this game sucks so bad, why do i like to play it so much?

[Icysunx]

What the....4k exp? Are you sure youre readin that right? I basically pvped my sage to 50 and i remember gettimg 20k+ for wins and 12k+ for losses.

 

On a thread related note...if this game sucks so bad, why do i like to play it so much?

 

We don't know why you like to play it, why don't you tell us.

[RolyartNala]

I have a suspicion that the vast majority of development time was spent on these, and the sad part is, most MMO players with the attention spans and imaginations of small diseased rats just click through them.

Because in a persistent world online game, having engaging gameplay trumps everything else, including story. How do we not all realize this by now? Story is great, but it is finite. At some point, the feature that keeps people around is the fun they have kicking butt and taking names. This, sadly, is the part where SWTOR is lacking at 50. Gamers will put up with a lot, but they won't put up with boredom.

[Razot]

I remember back in SWG a few days after the CU hit there was a post about who would you love to make a new Star Wars MMO, and naturally Bioware was everyones wish.

I remember the joy when we found out about Bioware and ToR it was like a dream come true. The whole thing with EA didn't bother me much at first there was DA1,ME1 and ME2 then all of sudden DA2 hit and i was like uhhhhh what was that while the launch of ToR was getting closer i started to have a really bad feeling about what was gonna happen.

What went wrong?

Nothing went wrong as i think Bioware/EA made the best game they could with the best and most talented people they have left after the EA take over. Its like the new Guns N Roses, Axle and everyone involved thinks its great, but its not the magic is gone. LA gave the old Bioware the privilege to make an MMO of one of the greatest sci-fi franchises in the world and somehow they just didn't capture the feeling or vibe of Star Wars.

I almost feel bad as if somehow some Star Wars geek at LA saw that post on the SWG forums, or even Lucas himself said give the fans what they want so I can make billions more, and then EA came into the picture with all of its corporate BS and destroyed what everyone was hoping to be the ultimate Star Wars experience...

Edited May 11, 2012 by Razot

[Vellem]

OP: there are some things I agree with and disagree with about your post. You use Rift as your comparison game to swtor. I played Rift for about six months. Leveled up a couple of characters to 50. I was impressed at the mostly solid launch the game had. It was well polished. But a lot of things you are saying are subjective to the individual player. Rift had a lot of great ideas and systems in place but in the end they failed to execute.

 

The killer for me was the story. (more precisely the lack thereof) I didn't feel immersed or invested in the game at all. I didn't care about the factions or the leaders. (didn't even know their names) It all just came across as generic fantasy. There was no hook.

 

The big selling point of the Rift invasions were being ignored by the majority of players after only a few months. You make it sound like some grand dynamic thing but it was just a random small invasion that spawned in a random location in a zone. It got so bad that they had to put timers on the rifts to self-close because zones would become filled with them and no one cared enough about them anymore to bother closing them. People complain about dead planets in this game and there it was no different riding through an empty zone that had 10 open rifts that no one cared about.

 

Rift had a good idea that wound up being little more than a gimmick but in the end it was still the same old, hurry up and level to 50, start grinding your gear tokens / raid gear hamster wheel that so many mmos are stuck on now. The best thing it has going for it now is the unmatched freedom you have with your character switching specs to tank or heal or dps on the fly. It was / is a good game, but it doesn't do anything that puts it head and shoulders above this game.

[JoanneK]

OP: there are some things I agree with and disagree with about your post. You use Rift as your comparison game to swtor. I played Rift for about six months. Leveled up a couple of characters to 50. I was impressed at the mostly solid launch the game had. It was well polished. But a lot of things you are saying are subjective to the individual player. Rift had a lot of great ideas and systems in place but in the end they failed to execute.

 

The killer for me was the story. (more precisely the lack thereof) I didn't feel immersed or invested in the game at all. I didn't care about the factions or the leaders. (didn't even know their names) It all just came across as generic fantasy. There was no hook.

 

The big selling point of the Rift invasions were being ignored by the majority of players after only a few months. You make it sound like some grand dynamic thing but it was just a random small invasion that spawned in a random location in a zone. It got so bad that they had to put timers on the rifts to self-close because zones would become filled with them and no one cared enough about them anymore to bother closing them. People complain about dead planets in this game and there it was no different riding through an empty zone that had 10 open rifts that no one cared about.

 

Rift had a good idea that wound up being little more than a gimmick but in the end it was still the same old, hurry up and level to 50, start grinding your gear tokens / raid gear hamster wheel that so many mmos are stuck on now. The best thing it has going for it now is the unmatched freedom you have with your character switching specs to tank or heal or dps on the fly. It was / is a good game, but it doesn't do anything that puts it head and shoulders above this game.

 

Like I said in the original post, It was purely my opinion and as such open to interpretation and differences of opinion, I even agree with what you have just said, I just worded it differently, but "dynamic" in MMO generally means content beyond the players control that and can change, those rift spawns arent player controllable they just pop up randomly, that qualifies albeit just about in some views as dynamic content, they may well be trivial afer a few months just like alot of content put into these MMOs but they are dynamic regardless of a fan base.

 

The end game aspects of Rift and for that matter other games, are touched upon in some subsequent posts in here.

 

I think we'd all agree that the holy grail of conundrums for developers for the next few years is: in a level quantified system, how do you make the end-game not the end-game? SWG had a good idea for it in my opinion as did EVE to a degree anyway, but players generally seem to prefer having that overarching numeric with which to feel all big n bad, so at max level what became the next best thing? gear, then boss kills, then dps meters, then just out right pointless posturing slanging matches in general chat and after 8 years of that we really need something fundamentally new, hence why I dont play Rift and one of the reasons this game has fallen from grace for me. I honestly believe that the next decent MMO that solves that end game puzzle in a reasonable way will have a damned good chance at being the next 'WoW'.

[Goretzu]

. I honestly believe that the next decent MMO that solves that end game puzzle in a reasonable way will have a damned good chance at being the next 'WoW'.

 

Yup, the next huge game (although nothing may ever have as many subs as WoW again) hase to be a hybrid. Something that capture the best of both types of game play, or at least enough both to eclipse the others.

[Vellem]

I think we'd all agree that the holy grail of conundrums for developers for the next few years is: in a level quantified system, how do you make the end-game not the end-game? SWG had a good idea for it in my opinion as did EVE to a degree anyway, but players generally seem to prefer having that overarching numeric with which to feel all big n bad, so at max level what became the next best thing? gear, then boss kills, then dps meters, then just out right pointless posturing slanging matches in general chat and after 8 years of that we really need something fundamentally new, hence why I dont play Rift and one of the reasons this game has fallen from grace for me. I honestly believe that the next decent MMO that solves that end game puzzle in a reasonable way will have a damned good chance at being the next 'WoW'.

 

I totally agree.

[kurzis]

The solution to end game is so simple.

 

1) get rid of levels, reintroduce skills. therefore no level cap = no end game

2) go back to sandbox rather than themepark. sandbox = no end game

 

both of these solutions completely eliminate "end game" you're just playing a game.

[Kubernetic]

Like I said in the original post, It was purely my opinion and as such open to interpretation and differences of opinion, I even agree with what you have just said, I just worded it differently, but "dynamic" in MMO generally means content beyond the players control that and can change, those rift spawns arent player controllable they just pop up randomly, that qualifies albeit just about in some views as dynamic content, they may well be trivial afer a few months just like alot of content put into these MMOs but they are dynamic regardless of a fan base.

 

The end game aspects of Rift and for that matter other games, are touched upon in some subsequent posts in here.

 

I think we'd all agree that the holy grail of conundrums for developers for the next few years is: in a level quantified system, how do you make the end-game not the end-game? SWG had a good idea for it in my opinion as did EVE to a degree anyway, but players generally seem to prefer having that overarching numeric with which to feel all big n bad, so at max level what became the next best thing? gear, then boss kills, then dps meters, then just out right pointless posturing slanging matches in general chat and after 8 years of that we really need something fundamentally new, hence why I dont play Rift and one of the reasons this game has fallen from grace for me. I honestly believe that the next decent MMO that solves that end game puzzle in a reasonable way will have a damned good chance at being the next 'WoW'.

 

Entropia is nothing but endgame from beginning to end. You can go create a character there now for free, and just have to deposit money in order to get better weapons and ammo and so forth. And we're not talking just some schlub game... this is a game with full planets that take hours to walk from one side of the continents to the other, full vehicles with vehicle combat and PVP zones where you LOSE your stuff when you get killed, and can LOOT other players when you kill them (in PVP4 zones), and a full space component including double-seat space fighters, merchant vessels and full capital ships with multiple cannons, repair points, hangars for launching support fighters and repair crews, space hunting, pirates, etc.

 

Go create a character on Calypso and let me know and I'll give you a personal tour of the continent and help you pick up the teleporters you need. Then you can let us know what your experience with "pure endgame" was. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts after playing it for a few months. I certainly know what my thoughts are on the matter.

[kurzis]

Entropia is nothing but endgame from beginning to end. You can go create a character there now for free, and just have to deposit money in order to get better weapons and ammo and so forth. And we're not talking just some schlub game... this is a game with full planets that take hours to walk from one side of the continents to the other, full vehicles with vehicle combat and PVP zones where you LOSE your stuff when you get killed, and can LOOT other players when you kill them (in PVP4 zones), and a full space component including double-seat space fighters, merchant vessels and full capital ships with multiple cannons, repair points, hangars for launching support fighters and repair crews, space hunting, pirates, etc.

 

Go create a character on Calypso and let me know and I'll give you a personal tour of the continent and help you pick up the teleporters you need. Then you can let us know what your experience with "pure endgame" was. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts after playing it for a few months. I certainly know what my thoughts are on the matter.

 

ty man. ty,. never heard of this game before but it looks awesome!

[Rzacron]

You could sell an unpolished turd to anyone if its got Star Wars written on the doggy bag.... no analogy needed.

[Dezzi]

Entropia is nothing but endgame from beginning to end. You can go create a character there now for free, and just have to deposit money in order to get better weapons and ammo and so forth. And we're not talking just some schlub game... this is a game with full planets that take hours to walk from one side of the continents to the other, full vehicles with vehicle combat and PVP zones where you LOSE your stuff when you get killed, and can LOOT other players when you kill them (in PVP4 zones), and a full space component including double-seat space fighters, merchant vessels and full capital ships with multiple cannons, repair points, hangars for launching support fighters and repair crews, space hunting, pirates, etc.

 

Go create a character on Calypso and let me know and I'll give you a personal tour of the continent and help you pick up the teleporters you need. Then you can let us know what your experience with "pure endgame" was. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts after playing it for a few months. I certainly know what my thoughts are on the matter.

 

Sounds awesome! Checking it out now!

[LuthirFontaine]

The solution to end game is so simple.

 

1) get rid of levels, reintroduce skills. therefore no level cap = no end game

2) go back to sandbox rather than themepark. sandbox = no end game

 

both of these solutions completely eliminate "end game" you're just playing a game.

 

eh...there is a reason no one makes sandbox games anymore...

[KrittaB]

The solution to end game is so simple.

 

1) get rid of levels, reintroduce skills. therefore no level cap = no end game

2) go back to sandbox rather than themepark. sandbox = no end game

 

both of these solutions completely eliminate "end game" you're just playing a game.

 

It would also eliminate the player base and any chance of ever being a AAA title. Sandbox games have always been, and will always be very niche games.

[kurzis]

eh...there is a reason no one makes sandbox games anymore...

 

please clarify? there's only 2 successful MMO's out there that are still pay to play

 

WoW

EvE

 

WoW is almost dead, EvE is still going strong, one is a themepark, the other is a sandbox.

 

sandbox games have dominated the MMO market, the only really successful themepark was WoW but WoW only got its success because it opened up a niche gaming genre to pre-teens, girls and cry babies.

[KrittaB]

please clarify? there's only 2 successful MMO's out there that are still pay to play

 

WoW

EvE

 

WoW is almost dead, EvE is still going strong, one is a themepark, the other is a sandbox.

 

sandbox games have dominated the MMO market, the only really successful themepark was WoW but WoW only got its success because it opened up a niche gaming genre to pre-teens, girls and cry babies.

 

If you think you can compare the subscriber base of Eve to Wow, there's really no point in continuing the debate.

[kurzis]

If you think you can compare the subscriber base of Eve to Wow, there's really no point in continuing the debate.

 

i'm not

 

im talking about success, which both have been

 

just because CCP take less income than blizzard doesn't make my point any less valid

[JoanneK]

please clarify? there's only 2 successful MMO's out there that are still pay to play

 

WoW

EvE

 

WoW is almost dead, EvE is still going strong, one is a themepark, the other is a sandbox.

 

sandbox games have dominated the MMO market, the only really successful themepark was WoW but WoW only got its success because it opened up a niche gaming genre to pre-teens, girls and cry babies.

 

I'm a big fan of the sandbox approach but they don't dominate, they do last but age isn't related to dominance. WoW is still very much the #1 regardless of its reputation, it still has triple maybe even quadruple the number of active paid accounts than the next best MMO, it is very much the ligthning that struck the same place 5 times.

 

The main fundamental problem with the sandbox approach is getting people to use their imagination, people tend to want everything handed to them, they dont want to go out and have to find it anymore. On the other hand pure themeparks are now pretty much at the end of their life span also as the whole idea of progressing through the 'story' instantly screams stick a level number on me and thats creates the whole end-game vicious circle that had rehashed time and time again over the last near-decade.

 

People are starting to want a themepark that can, on demand, be sandboxy then switch right back to being a themepark again - would this qualify as a hybrid as has been suggested? I'm not so sure I think this goes further than that but who knows, 1 thing is clear: we're a demanding bunch aren't we and once the MMO games industry realises maybe we'll get some serious innovation instead of iteration on the 'next big thing'.

[Kubernetic]

It would also eliminate the player base and any chance of ever being a AAA title. Sandbox games have always been, and will always be very niche games.

 

This. These kinds of sandbox games cater directly to the players who have hours every day to spend in the game... they become the elites, and everyone else falls behind because you can never put in enough time to catch up with them.

 

That was kind of my example with Entropia earlier. The top 100 players are pretty much the same, month in and month out, because they're the ones that have been there for 12 years and have all of the unique or completely awesome items, have gobs and gobs of cash that they can cycle through the system, and have all of the top armors and weapons and more skills than anyone else, and can thus win every competition ever held in the game. It's always the same names winning contests of any kind...

 

I was into it for a while, but eventually realized I was chasing a dragon I would never be able to catch... what's the point?

[Goretzu]

I was into it for a while, but eventually realized I was chasing a dragon I would never be able to catch... what's the point?

 

That's the same for every MMORPG in existance, including this one.