Why I don't PVP - From a PVE player

[Altoholic]

"Hey, why don't you pvp more with us? :("

 

It's a question I've been asked many times by my friends in game and my guildmates. I'm not huge on PVP, never have been really, and it's no secret to my guildmates and online buddies that I’m not a fan. I don't get the same thrill from PVP that I do from raiding, I don’t see the challenge in PVP that my friends do.

 

Now this is not to say I’m a bad player. I’ve raided in MMO’s for about 10 years. I’m a min/maxxer, theorycrafter, and try to learn everything I can about classes, their abilities, and their strengths/weaknesses. These things should translate to PVP, but sadly I just never have had the drive to bother putting as much effort into PVP that I have PVE content. At my core, I’m a healer through and through, and have leveled two 50’s with the sole purpose of PVE healing, and that’s pretty much it.

 

After the patch, PVP exploded. It seems a lot more people are doing it, my guildmates and friends included, but I have been left behind seemingly lacking the “itch” to enter warzones and smack people around. So… I decided to try and do something that I never have been thrilled with, and force myself to PVP and like it.

 

Well that’s the intention anyway. So here’s what I’ve discovered about my joys/frustrations of PVP’ing…

 

So far, I have leveled an operative healer solely in warzones, only venturing out into the PVE world to do my class quests and farm resources for crafting between matches. This weekend I hit lvl 40 and am valor capped for my level.

 

And you know, it’s not been half bad. Sure I’m not in the top bracket yet (which is a whole other ball game) but so far… well, it’s not been a horrible experience. I have a few guildmates that pull in their lowbies and we queue into a wz, cracking up on vent, and generally having a good time. This is one of the things I enjoy so much about PVE content – Being on vent, working past obstacles and achieving objectives, and generally having a good time with friends. Sure killing a few pubs here and there doesn’t hurt either, but the general objectivity behind the warzones I have started to enjoy. I like having multiple objectives and strategic combat, and it’s something I didn’t realize existed in warzones until I forced myself to get in… learn about it… and like it.

 

Of course there are a few things I can’t stand that still put me off about warzones. Sure, you’re going to get a team in a solo queue that’s going to suck, it’s inevitable, but people queue and drop by the handful when they see players they think “are noobs” and immediately requeue to get on another team. There are no repercussions for ditching a team, and this is something that bothers me. PVE has repercussions if you fail or ditch your team, and PVP should have as well. This is my primary beef with PVP and easily one of the key reasons I have been put off about it for so long since SWTOR launched.

 

That frustration aside, I still kind of dig PVP. I’m still a PVE’r sure, but I have started to like PVP in this game and am actually having a fun time doing it. Sure, leveling is slow, and the challenge is way more random and chaotic than Ops, but I think I’m going to actually stick with it. Maybe more people like me who are pure PVE players will eventually try out the challenge of PVP if they can see how fun it can be when playing with people you know or with guildies. I know the main reason I wanted to PVP is that I saw how much my guildmates enjoyed it and I felt a left out, so I decided to do something about it and learn a little more about part of the game that I previously have little experience with.

 

And I’ve found that being a good PVE healer also makes me a pretty good PVP healer as well.

 

But anyway, just wanted to share some thoughts. I’m sure I’ll be flamed for making a constructive post that uses decent grammar and is legible. This is for the haters:

 

TL;DR

Lolz like I did pve for a long tyme but nao I pvp and pwn noobs in wz’s gg oh and i heal gud to.

[Razot]

Well imo WZ's are really not PVP dude. WZ's are just a mini game zerg fest type of game that are closer to the PVE mindset than you would think.

Now as for me i have never raided or done HM or whatever dungeons, but with this game i am actually considering it till Bioware actually tries some sort of world PVP. WZ's are a very very shallow interpretation of a PVP and are barely tolerable at best for a lot of us.

I hope that someday you will get to experience real PVP as most of us older players started MMO's as a PVEer and it was the actual thrill of PVP that got us hooked, and you wont find that in a WZ.

Edited May 8, 2012 by Razot

[Altoholic]

That could be one of the reasons I've never enjoyed it. Maybe the warzone/battleground experience isn't cutting it. I do like it, but like you said it's very PVE ish, especially as a healer. I basically perform the same role just filling up those bars. It is challenging though when i get resource hogged trying to keep a couple people up who are being focused down, i do dig it when i successfully keep them alive through the damage.

 

I don't know, maybe if they implemented some real open world PVP i could give that a shot and like it a bit more. However it is very fun outhealing the damage of 2-3 players trying to focus me down. I get a kick out of that.

[paul_preib]

Well imo WZ's are really not PVP dude. WZ's are just a mini game zerg fest type of game that are closer to the PVE mindset than you would think.

Now as for me i have never raided or done HM or whatever dungeons, but with this game i am actually considering it till Bioware actually tries some sort of world PVP. WZ's are a very very shallow interpretation of a PVP and are barely tolerable at best for a lot of us.

I hope that someday you will get to experience real PVP as most of us older players started MMO's as a PVEer and it was the actual thrill of PVP that got us hooked, and you wont find that in a WZ.

 

It's all in the eye of the beholder, yes good raid v raid open world pvp between two relatively balanced groups can be great fun but the flip side of this is that now with swtor being the third mmo I have sunk a decent amount of time into I have yet to see open world succeed in terms of equal footing often enough to matter.

 

I actually enjoy this pvp in a can system of bg's, wz's, or whatever given phrase an individual game likes to use because it becomes more then just a 15 v 8 zerg or such where it devolves into the advantaged side farming until the other side packs it in.

 

Yes there's the occasional 8 v 6 start here, but by and large I know going in that the odds of it being relatively equal footing are far.greater and that a team that's outgunned can still win by means of outhinking the opposing team.

[Khoraji]

Well imo WZ's are really not PVP dude. WZ's are just a mini game zerg fest type of game that are closer to the PVE mindset than you would think.

Now as for me i have never raided or done HM or whatever dungeons, but with this game i am actually considering it till Bioware actually tries some sort of world PVP. WZ's are a very very shallow interpretation of a PVP and are barely tolerable at best for a lot of us.

I hope that someday you will get to experience real PVP as most of us older players started MMO's as a PVEer and it was the actual thrill of PVP that got us hooked, and you wont find that in a WZ.

 

ummmm. no

 

Warzones are the only real PvP.

 

World pvp is for casual fun. It is not balanced, it is not fair, and is more of a zerg mentality.

[Razot]

You know as a healer type of person i think you would really enjoy EVE..

I have always been DPS or Tanky stuff but for the last year or so I have really gotten into Logistic ships for large scale PVP or even the 15 to 30 guys roams..

Like in a large fleet you can have 15 to 20 logis with a logi boss and its so complex keeping up 250 or more ships.. cap chains, watch lists, logi groups, basically a huge amount of team work comes into play, plus most large alliances give free ships to logi pilots .

I have been in 6 hour fights before and worked myself that i was actually sweating and needed a nap after but getting massive appreciation from the fleet and fleet commanders is always fun. healing always matters in every MMO but in that game its the force factor and most rewarding you cannot win without them. Plus after you get the logis trained there is no major alliance in EVE that wouldn't sign you up. lol

[Razot]

ummmm. no

 

Warzones are the only real PvP.

 

World pvp is for casual fun. It is not balanced, it is not fair, and is more of a zerg mentality.

 

Oh go play EVE and not suck at it..

I know me and you are always on the opposing sides of this issue and about every other one as well...

I am not saying you are wrong but not right either we all have different views and experiences in MMO's .

Imo a games mechanics come into play, some games like TORs are really limited as most theme parks are but in some games with a large maps and good mechanics group composition, team work, and tactics win all.

Like in EVE lets say I have been in fight that we had around 90 in fleet we have beaten 250+ plus and at the same time we have been the 500+ and been beaten by 200 or so cause we failed to execute and fleet went into panic mode and lost discipline.

In other games focused around open world so many variables come into account and these things may or may not be present on TOR. But i think they could be with more open ended maps and less choke points. It seems like Most theme parks funnel everyone into a choke point that creates the zerg type pvp. I know even in EVE they choke point on gates but for the player with experience they actually mean nothing and are useless.

Watch this and this guy did this with a T1 Cruiser in which a new player could fly in about 3 weeks for T II mods.

Edited May 8, 2012 by Razot

[nellosmomishot]

Oh go play EVE and not suck at it..

I know me and you are always on the opposing sides of this issue and about every other one as well...

I am not saying you are wrong but not right either we all have different views and experiences in MMO's .

Imo a games mechanics come into play, some games like TORs are really limited as most theme parks are but in some games with a large maps and good mechanics group composition, team work, and tactics win all.

Like in EVE lets say I have been in fight that we had around 90 in fleet we have beaten 250+ plus and at the same time we have been the 500+ and been beaten by 200 or so cause we failed to execute and fleet went into panic mode and lost discipline.

In other games focused around open world so many variables come into account and these things may or may not be present on TOR. But i think they could be with more open ended maps and less choke points. It seems like Most theme parks funnel everyone into a choke point that creates the zerg type pvp. I know even in EVE they choke point on gate but for the player with experience they actually mean nothing and are useless.

 

I think khoraji is right on this one. While open world pvp is fun, you kinda proved why its casual fun and not competitive fun right in your post. There's no way 200 v 500 can be construed as anything BUT casual fun.

[Razot]

I think khoraji is right on this one. While open world pvp is fun, you kinda proved why its casual fun and not competitive fun right in your post. There's no way 200 v 500 can be construed as anything BUT casual fun.

 

There is nothing casual about EVE!! heh

You loose your space or keep your space and we are talking about crushing an alliance.

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/File:Territorial_maps.png

 

The colored regions are player owned and this isn't just about zerging its about money and power. Wars can last for months...

Edited May 8, 2012 by Razot

[paul_preib]

By and large eve and daoc get held up as the pvp ideal that many.new games should attempt to derrive their pvp give/feel off of but the reality is that neither would be deemed a profitable enough model that any upcoming developer would really feel motivated to try and mimic.

 

Both proved viable within their niche, but nevertheless have failed to ascend beyond that niche market degree of population and profitability. Unless some independent studio can go out there and secure more then 500k subs for an extended period of time, these are not going to be looked to as where studios want to take their games' pvp

[Razot]

EVE is close to 500k subs and what 9 years old with Dust 514 around the corner i expect a major jump.

TOR is 5 months old lost 400k since launch and I would bet it will have around Rift numbers after its all said and done and RIFT or any other theme park outside of WoW is not that much more successful than EVE.

EVE is an extreme of the other spectrum of a theme park game.. I am just saying that TORs PVP could be a lot better than it is now.

WZ's are very shallow and just a mini game,TOR and Bioware should strive for more instead of actually having vrs same faction WZ's.. if that doesn't say we failed i don't know what else would.

Edited May 8, 2012 by Razot

[kitsinni]

I think the biggest challenge to a hardcore PVE Min/Maxer is that in PvP you can't really plan how the fight is gonig to take place. In PvE you can sit down and figure out the fights, watch videos, gear accordingly, plan the raid/group accordingly and tell the guild when to move out of something or to stand in a certain place. In PvP it is a madhouse and anything can happen at anytime. That isn't to say you can't get a pre-made and make plans like you do in PvE, but if you end up against another pre-made that has different plans you either adjust quickly or you lose. PvE is more about planning and executing a well designed plan and PvP is more about planning and then sc****** your plan and thinking on your toes. To me both offer a fun and unique experience.

 

I don't buy the whole warzones are not real PvP argument, I have played to many real world PvP games and it is just a half dozen of one or 6 of the other. They both add something and they are both lacking soemthing. In open world PvP you have stealthers and ranged players by far dominating in almost every open world PvP game. You also never would get the type of situation you have in something like Huttball. It would be nice if SWTOR had more open world PvP but it is like anything else, the other way always seems so much better until you are there and realize the grass ain't greener either side of the hill.

[Razot]

I think the biggest challenge to a hardcore PVE Min/Maxer is that in PvP you can't really plan how the fight is gonig to take place. In PvE you can sit down and figure out the fights, watch videos, gear accordingly, plan the raid/group accordingly and tell the guild when to move out of something or to stand in a certain place. In PvP it is a madhouse and anything can happen at anytime. That isn't to say you can't get a pre-made and make plans like you do in PvE, but if you end up against another pre-made that has different plans you either adjust quickly or you lose. PvE is more about planning and executing a well designed plan and PvP is more about planning and then sc****** your plan and thinking on your toes. To me both offer a fun and unique experience.

 

I don't buy the whole warzones are not real PvP argument, I have played to many real world PvP games and it is just a half dozen of one or 6 of the other. They both add something and they are both lacking soemthing. In open world PvP you have stealthers and ranged players by far dominating in almost every open world PvP game. You also never would get the type of situation you have in something like Huttball. It would be nice if SWTOR had more open world PvP but it is like anything else, the other way always seems so much better until you are there and realize the grass ain't greener either side of the hill.

 

Ill be honest this is only my 2nd theme park and my first was RIFT and the whole PVP gear made open world suck, so i am really lost with the whole gear reward idea.. in the games i have played the only reward for winning was not to be dead

I log into WZ after WZ and feel nothing and i do ok but i don't get any thrill out of it while the few open world encounters Ive been in my heart rate increases and the fight gets ugly and its so much fun win or loose.

Its a different vibe all together as the other day i ran into a guy i see in WZ's all the time and is really good but open world he totally froze up and choked. I actually felt kinda bad tbh:D well not really!

There is a difference and even sometimes when i get jumped its like my brain goes into chaos and only open world can give that.

The only fun i get in WZ's is on my Jugg tank spec is keeping a sorce healer alive cause.. I don't really care about anything else tbh and i do have fun with that sometimes. I have a 50 sent and i don't play it much.. pre 1.2 it was my fav now its like meh burn down this guy and next and the next then get focused and explode.. Kind of Bland imo.

Edited May 8, 2012 by Razot

[paul_preib]

EVE is close to 500k subs and what 9 years old with Dust 514 around the corner i expect a major jump.

TOR is 5 months old lost 400k since launch and I would bet it will have around Rift numbers after its all said and done and RIFT or any other theme park outside of WoW is not that much more successful than EVE.

EVE is an extreme of the other spectrum of a theme park game.. I am just saying that TORs PVP could be a lot better than it is now.

WZ's are very shallow and just a mini game,TOR and Bioware should strive for more instead of actually having vrs same faction WZ's.. if that doesn't say we failed i don't know what else would.

 

Not to pick nits but estimates (since ccp stopped posting quarterly numbers) put it at about 350k subs (peaked at.385k with reports of losing roughly 10%) that said I think at the end of the day most pve/pvp combo games are going to move more and more into the bg/wz system because it handles the greatest problem of -- faction imbalance.

 

I'm not saying tor's execution of this is perfect, but I do think ultimately it is the most viable system for a game that works to multiple aspects of mmo gameplay over being overtly pvp focused

 

That said different strokes for different folks and to me after not caring for the two you tried it sounds more likee you aren't a particular fan of themepark mmos

Edited May 8, 2012 by paul_preib

[Razot]

 

That said different strokes for different folks and to me after not caring for the two you tried it sounds more likee you aren't a particular fan of themepark mmos

 

I wont argue that point..

i think my plan is do the gear thing then try high end PVE although i have never done that before and hang around the daily area's and kill dudes all day until they all group up and gank me..

Kinda like being the drunk guy throwing bottles at the front door of Starbuck screaming ***********!! and crying until the cops come..

Edited May 8, 2012 by Razot

[ZeusThunder]

The consequences for ditching an operation are the same as ditching a WZ. It's not like if you leave an op early you can't go back in for a period of time. The only consequence for both is bad reputation.

[Altoholic]

I think the biggest challenge to a hardcore PVE Min/Maxer is that in PvP you can't really plan how the fight is gonig to take place. In PvE you can sit down and figure out the fights, watch videos, gear accordingly, plan the raid/group accordingly and tell the guild when to move out of something or to stand in a certain place. In PvP it is a madhouse and anything can happen at anytime. That isn't to say you can't get a pre-made and make plans like you do in PvE, but if you end up against another pre-made that has different plans you either adjust quickly or you lose. PvE is more about planning and executing a well designed plan and PvP is more about planning and then sc****** your plan and thinking on your toes. To me both offer a fun and unique experience.

 

This, I've had a hard time adjusting to exactly this. You never know how it's going to go and it's something I've had to adjust myself to. I think a lot of people are like this. They are used to planning and preparation, with PVP it's more on-the-seat-of-your-pants kind of thing. It's not been a bad experience though, and I think more hardcore PVE'ers should try going all out pvp for a while at least. It's definitely a different experience from PVE content.

[sonickat]

Dear OP,

 

It's awesome that you seem to be finding some enjoyment in PVP. I wish more would give it an honest shake.

 

The more I pvp as a hard core raider I find myself gravitating to the elitist side of the spectrum in terms of pvp. Not that I feel like I'm better than everyone else but that there are certain individuals whom I know from experience are at the very least going to be dead weight on my team if not counter productive. On my low to light pop server there are a certain individuals who are known for and will acknowledge doing the exact opposite of any posted strat just to frustrate the poster.

 

I don't know about you but my time's valuable - even if this is a game - I shouldn't be penalized for not wanting to waist my time with these douche bags.

 

Personally what I'd like to see is the system not allow me to be placed in a group with someone I have on ignore. I'm not asking to exclude them, I'm asking to be excluded from the que and let the next guy have my spot. First person in the current WZ it's filling gets priority the next guy waits for the next one. This would only prevent me from being teamed with not teamed against. This would solve 90% of the problems with the current system where people join and leave que.

 

In WoW this is how the cross server dungeon finder worked. If you got grouped with a moron you couldn't stand you simply put them on ignore and you never saw them again.

 

It promoted an atmosphere where you can act how you want but you get tlive with the consequences of your actoins.

[ShadowOfVey]

Without pvp, how are you going to inform other players of their mother's bedroom habits?