bennygold Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 Activision's definition of 'active subscribers' when assessing the number of active WoW subscriptions: "World of Warcraft subscribers are defined to include: (1) individuals who have paid a subscription fee or have an active prepaid card to play World of Warcraft , (2) those who have purchased the game and are within their free month of access, and (3) Internet Game Room players who have accessed the game over the last thirty days. The definition of subscribers does not include any players under free promotional subscriptions, expired or cancelled subscriptions, or expired prepaid cards." WHOOPS! I dont get it, we are talking about EA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeramieCrowe Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 Good to know. I had to shelve my Sawbones at 38 because I got sick of healing Corso Riggs while he shot everything for me. My guardian just passed 38 tonight, so 50 is in the forseeable future. Now, if I were only on a server with an active guild or two, I might get to see some of those flash points at 50. Which brings us back to the server population problem... Soon. I suspect that every player on a low-pop will view this as an entirely new game after transfer/shut-downs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mothermonterr Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 Soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bennygold Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 I guess we'll see next quarter, eh? I think so, unless they keep the lie going by giving away free trials the weekend before or giving everyone who has a blue tauntaun and leveled a bounty hunter past 24, 30 days free game time again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mothermonterr Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 I think so, unless they keep the lie going by giving away free trials the weekend before or giving everyone who has a blue tauntaun and leveled a bounty hunter past 24, 30 days free game time again. THey already talked about giving out free time in the conference calls. IN other words, fluff the numbers when they feel like it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skirata_Kal Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 Good to know. I had to shelve my Sawbones at 38 because I got sick of healing Corso Riggs while he shot everything for me. My guardian just passed 38 tonight, so 50 is in the forseeable future. Now, if I were only on a server with an active guild or two, I might get to see some of those flash points at 50. Which brings us back to the server population problem... My Healing Scoundrel is 50, got the pieces from dailies, downed a few Op bosses and is now on ice. The promising guild we had going died with the server so if you're on a low pop (which some Standard's are) good luck with the groups I rerolled on another server Imperial side with about 3 times the population (though it was very low tonight) and still groups are hit and miss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haeso Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 If, on average, the typical player did NOT pay more than $15/month, why do you think more and more developers are turing toward it? Why do you think profits, on average are GREATER for an F2P game than a sub-based one? Because they get revenue magically? Even though the average player is paying less? Wow! I thought magic was fiction! You're not even reading what I've written at this point, do you just copy/paste a random talking point every time you quote someone? As someone who actually works in this industry and debates the merits of the business model on a regular basis - you don't know what you're talking about, and you haven't understood anything I said and you didn't even understand the link you posted earlier. You want to know the real reason more developers are turning towards it? Sure there are some chasing profits, but the real reason is because a F2P game is significantly cheaper to make and still meet expectations. The barrier to entry into the triple A MMO market is a hundred million dollars give or take. It's a teeny tiny fraction of that to break into the F2P MMO market. Everyone knows you can make money doing both, if F2P was some magical money printing machine you'd think even blizzard would be doing it! But they're not abandoning their flagship subscription model for a lot of reasons, though I get the feeling explaining those reasons to you is a waste of my time. Unless you're some weak-minded idiot that shouldn't be allowed to know the numbers on mommy and daddy's credit cards - a good free to play game cannot hurt you. It can only provide you an excellent experience for free. There is no song and dance, no charade - if you wish to spend money, you can, but if you do not, you can choose not to without any real disadvantages. Just because some games abuse the business model and their players, doesn't mean the that there's anything wrong with the business model itself, nor does it mean you cannot benefit from it. If SWTOR could support itself by selling vanity pets and exp boosts and other silly things that do not negatively impact you in any way to the point where you no longer had to pay a subscription fee - how would that be bad for you? Simple minded vilification of the business model is childish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeramieCrowe Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 THey already talked about giving out free time in the conference calls. IN other words, fluff the numbers when they feel like it. And the investors are SOO STUPID that a typical basement gamer can see through it better than a professional investor, eh? LOL! Seriously, get over yourselves... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mothermonterr Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 And the investors are SOO STUPID that a typical basement gamer can see through it better than a professional investor, eh? LOL! Seriously, get over yourselves... what is this basement you speak off:rak_02: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeramieCrowe Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 You're not even reading what I've written at this point, do you just copy/paste a random talking point every time you quote someone? As someone who actually works in this industry and debates the merits of the business model on a regular basis - you don't know what you're talking about, and you haven't understood anything I said and you didn't even understand the link you posted earlier. You want to know the real reason more developers are turning towards it? Sure there are some chasing profits, but the real reason is because a F2P game is significantly cheaper to make and still meet expectations. The barrier to entry into the triple A MMO market is a hundred million dollars give or take. It's a teeny tiny fraction of that to break into the F2P MMO market. Everyone knows you can make money doing both, if F2P was some magical money printing machine you'd think even blizzard would be doing it! But they're not abandoning their flagship subscription model for a lot of reasons, though I get the feeling explaining those reasons to you is a waste of my time. Unless you're some weak-minded idiot that shouldn't be allowed to know the numbers on mommy and daddy's credit cards - a good free to play game cannot hurt you. It can only provide you an excellent experience for free. There is no song and dance, no charade - if you wish to spend money, you can, but if you do not, you can choose not to without any real disadvantages. Just because some games abuse the business model and their players, doesn't mean the that there's anything wrong with the business model itself, nor does it mean you cannot benefit from it. If SWTOR could support itself by selling vanity pets and exp boosts and other silly things that do not negatively impact you in any way to the point where you no longer had to pay a subscription fee - how would that be bad for you? Simple minded vilification of the business model is childish. Aside from the condescension and insults, you beautifully illustrated my point. Although, admittedly, I didn't verbalize it because I already have in so many other posts, I tire of repeating myself. Suffice it to say that everything you mentioned here is exactly why TOR will never go F2P. It's not remotely the same business model. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeramieCrowe Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 what is this basement you speak off:rak_02: I dunno, I don't have a basement. Although I should. A tornado just wiped out a whole neighborhood not even a mile away just few weeks ago. But, anyway... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FadenFaste Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 Rift didn't even launch with an LFG last March. TERA is the FIRST to launch with one. Then congratulations to TERA to be the first MMO to be properly multiplayer at launch. Maybe I'll go check it out... Maybe this is the point...in today's world, most people are going to be coming to a new MMO comparing it to WoW as it exists in 2012, because that's how they were introduced to MMOs. That the gaming cognoscenti are aware that MMOs have historically not had a group finder upon release is not relevant. What matters is that right now, today, I can log into WoW and be running an instance within 15 minutes, assuming I have a level 15 toon. Right now, today, I can't say that about TOR. Which means that right now, today, I'm thinking maybe I'll go play WoW for a few months, and maybe I'll get back to TOR when EA and Bioware have actually finished it, or maybe some other new game will have come up, or maybe I'll find myself in a really cool guild and spend another two years in Azeroth. All of those options put my $500 over the next three years very much in play. With an LFG tool, I'd probably be willing to ride out the next few months while they fine tune the game. At least there IS solo content in this game. To be fair, Dungeons and Dragons Online shipped with no LFG tool, AND no solo content at all. What could have been a really cool game lost me in less than 60 days, for lack of an LFG tool. I think that this/next month's transfer/shut-downs will accomplish just that. It went perfect for Rift last year. To the point that they only have 250k subs, yet every server is filled. They did NOT do merges. I find this news very encouraging. I'm on the forums tonight because I'm getting very frustrated with my experience in TOR. I've been playing TOR exclusively for three months now, and damn, I'm lonely. That wasn't the case in WoW. So I'm not up on the forum buzz and the company news. If they can fix the server population issue within the next 4-8 weeks, they have a lot better chance at keeping my $500. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bennygold Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 And the investors are SOO STUPID that a typical basement gamer can see through it better than a professional investor, eh? LOL! Seriously, get over yourselves... There is a saying 'more money than sense' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeramieCrowe Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 Then congratulations to TERA to be the first MMO to be properly multiplayer at launch. Maybe I'll go check it out... Maybe this is the point...in today's world, most people are going to be coming to a new MMO comparing it to WoW as it exists in 2012, because that's how they were introduced to MMOs. That the gaming cognoscenti are aware that MMOs have historically not had a group finder upon release is not relevant. What matters is that right now, today, I can log into WoW and be running an instance within 15 minutes, assuming I have a level 15 toon. Right now, today, I can't say that about TOR. Which means that right now, today, I'm thinking maybe I'll go play WoW for a few months, and maybe I'll get back to TOR when EA and Bioware have actually finished it, or maybe some other new game will have come up, or maybe I'll find myself in a really cool guild and spend another two years in Azeroth. All of those options put my $500 over the next three years very much in play. With an LFG tool, I'd probably be willing to ride out the next few months while they fine tune the game. At least there IS solo content in this game. To be fair, Dungeons and Dragons Online shipped with no LFG tool, AND no solo content at all. What could have been a really cool game lost me in less than 60 days, for lack of an LFG tool. It's a sad thing, but I've actually suggested that to people on low-pops. To take a break. Come back in a couple months. That's not a good thing for TOR. A high percentage of people that "take a break", never come back. That's not conducive to creating the atypical sub increase at 6 months... That's why I say to do so they need to do the server transfer/shut-downs, endgame content, and revamped open-world PvP IMMEDIATELY. We'll see. I find this news very encouraging. I'm on the forums tonight because I'm getting very frustrated with my experience in TOR. I've been playing TOR exclusively for three months now, and damn, I'm lonely. That wasn't the case in WoW. So I'm not up on the forum buzz and the company news. If they can fix the server population issue within the next 4-8 weeks, they have a lot better chance at keeping my $500. They need to do it this month. I'm hoping that their statement of "early summer" is, indeed, worst-case scenario. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeramieCrowe Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 There is a saying 'more money than sense' HAHA!! That there is, indeed, hehe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FadenFaste Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 It's a sad thing, but I've actually suggested that to people on low-pops. To take a break. Come back in a couple months. That's not a good thing for TOR. A high percentage of people that "take a break", never come back. That's not conducive to creating the atypical sub increase at 6 months... That's why I say to do so they need to do the server transfer/shut-downs, endgame content, and revamped open-world PvP IMMEDIATELY. We'll see. They need to do it this month. I'm hoping that their statement of "early summer" is, indeed, worst-case scenario. Understand, I really, really want to like this game. But as tired as I am of WoW after all these years, and as much as I fear that the next expansion will truly be WoW's jump-the-shark moment (panda PCs? seriously?), WoW still gives me something that TOR, today, does not. And somewhere above in this thread, I read that they had designed an LFG tool into the game, and TOOK IT OUT based on beta tester comments??? Seriously? Took it OUT? Zero-population server + no cross-server matchmaking = potentially fatal problem, at least for this player... And if they are going to CHARGE ME money to move my characters to a server with more than 20 people on fleet, they've lost me for sure. I shouldn't have to pay money to fix their mistakes and miscalculations. That kind of insult will make me leave on principle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haeso Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 Aside from the condescension and insults, you beautifully illustrated my point. Although, admittedly, I didn't verbalize it because I already have in so many other posts, I tire of repeating myself. Suffice it to say that everything you mentioned here is exactly why TOR will never go F2P. It's not remotely the same business model. If pointing out the obvious is condescending or insulting - might I suggest not being things which you consider it insulting to be called? It would sharply reduce the number of times you're called those things! I know it is a novel concept, but it's solid advice. Unfortunately "Your point" that I was replying to had nothing to do with SWTOR going free to play or not which I never said it would, hinted that it would, suggested I wanted to be, or anything of that nature - remember that line about someone's head being where it shouldn't be? Yours appears firmly lodged in such a place. You've quite a massive assumption about me and instead of understanding what I'm saying, you just keep spewing forth more talking points and whining about how I'm being mean to you, when in reality I've been perfectly reasonable. My point, has to do with this statement. They'll make more than what they would from subs in the store. The whole "free" think is a charade, and suckers like you fall for it. To which you replied: Agreed. The average per player spent on F2P is $28 per month. I don't know about you all, but I'd rather pay $15 per month for all content available. So you agree the F2P business model is a charade and only for suckers - and then you go on to suggest that the 'average' player spends more than 15 a month, taking it completely out context. Let me fill you in on a little secret - the 'average' WoW player spends more than 15 a month too, is WoW only for suckers now? I'm confused. Oh, right, you weren't making a logically sound argument, you were using hyperbole instead. I never said anything about SWTOR going free to play. Only you did. I merely pointed out that there's nothing wrong with the business model and you being Captain ASSumption leapt into action and firmly lodged your head where it ought not to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stonelead Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 I think the main problem was we all thought this was a WOW killer.. and it clearly isn't. By a killer I mean that it is superior and the world would play this game and because of that no one would play WOW. Now I find myself wanting GW2 to be the same thing....and time roles on:rak_02: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FadenFaste Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 I think the main problem was we all thought this was a WOW killer.. and it clearly isn't. By a killer I mean that it is superior and the world would play this game and because of that no one would play WOW. Now I find myself wanting GW2 to be the same thing....and time roles on:rak_02: Only two things will kill WoW...time, and WoW itself. Eventually, the WoW software is going to be embarrassingly, unbearably obsolete. We'll put up with out-of-date for a while, as long as we're still having fun, but in the long, long run, the engine is just going to be too old, too slow, and too low-rez. (On the other hand, such a low-tech program runs great even on my mother's laptop...which is a plus, from some perspectives...) But also, eventually, WoW will go too far in some direction in a vain attempt to keep itself fresh. When EQ introduced a PC race of frog paladins, we all knew it had jumped the shark. As a WoW player who formed a guild on launch day, I strongly suspect that kung fu pandas are going to be WoW's ticket to oblivion. Not that it won't lurch along for five more years after that, just on the strength of sheer numbers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goretzu Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 And the investors are SOO STUPID that a typical basement gamer can see through it better than a professional investor, eh? LOL! Seriously, get over yourselves... To be fair if investors were intelligent as a "herd" then the whole credit crunch would never have happend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaigen Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 I think the main problem was we all thought this was a WOW killer.. and it clearly isn't. By a killer I mean that it is superior and the world would play this game and because of that no one would play WOW. Now I find myself wanting GW2 to be the same thing....and time roles on:rak_02: How do you expect something to be superior while wow nearly had 9 years to improve on all fronts. WOW was horrible at the beginning and slowly became better. TOR still has the potential to rival WOW they simply need more time. But the WOW recipe has not changed since the beginning and its growing stale and GW2 is the same thing. But this is the first MMORPG that actually has RPG into it. If i grow bored with one class i can pick up another class and gain a completely different gaming experience. In short im never going back to WOW. That this game needs more content is a given. But i shall remind people that WOW hand no BG's and only 1 raid area and still it succeeded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sanxxx Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 If you don't think that the AVERAGE income for an F2P game is close to $28 per month for even fluff item games, you have your head in places it ought not be. There are players that spend next to nothing. Then, there are players that buy EVERYTHING. Thus the definition of the word AVERAGE. Still, with sub-based games, you get EVERYTHING for $15/month. Then, at some point under 1m subs there should be a business case for SWTOR to go F2P. 'Still, with sub-based games, you get EVERYTHING for $15/month' ......except character transfers of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bennygold Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 How do you expect something to be superior while wow nearly had 9 years to improve on all fronts. WOW was horrible at the beginning and slowly became better. TOR still has the potential to rival WOW they simply need more time. But the WOW recipe has not changed since the beginning and its growing stale and GW2 is the same thing. But this is the first MMORPG that actually has RPG into it. If i grow bored with one class i can pick up another class and gain a completely different gaming experience. In short im never going back to WOW. That this game needs more content is a given. But i shall remind people that WOW hand no BG's and only 1 raid area and still it succeeded. Even though that other game was horrible, there wasn't the other offerings on the table of the time. Even browser based games are gaining momentum now over SWTOR. I almost expected 1.3 to be yesterday Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sanxxx Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 And who's to say that the statement that TOR is "very profitable" has anything to do with "1.3 million"? Actually , EA do on the grounds that the alleged 1.3m is greater than the 1m minimum needed for a 'nothing to write home about ' profit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kitharen Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 TOR just isn't the game I feel my sparse free time to be worth being spent with. I have about 4-6 hours at hand a week to play video games and TOR just didn't cut it. Other MMOs felt more rewarding with this little time to spent. Anyhow, it's time for some fast paced Diablo 3 action now and I hope Blizzard didn't fail to capture what made D2 so successful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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