Why does every boss need an enrage timer?

[Traxv]

Yes the biggest problem with swtor comat mechanics is the unlimited amount of healing and the more healers you have the more the tank can get healed. In age of Conan most fights didn't have an enrage timer but the longer the fight went on the greater chance of things going wrong as in the top their raids one mistake could end up ending the raid. The healing in that game was rather simple the main heal for healers was a cone effect that put s heal dot on everyone in the cone. Healed for like 200 every couple of secs and the heal lasted 20s. The next heal was a group based heal that lasted 18s that heal for like. 30 ish every 2 secs. The last heal was a big heal which was on a 60 sec CD that healed for 2-3 k that was AOE around the healer. Stacking healers didn't do any good as you could only have 1 of the main heal, 2 of the little group heal ticking on you at anytime. You could receive 1 big heal from each healing class every 60s as each put a different rebuff on the player effected. This healing system also allowed healers to dps during the down time between them casting heals which made playing a healing class more fun cause you weren't just clicking players names in the raid eu die and spamming heals. Since there was not as much healing going on the use of mulitie tanks up to 6-7 for a 24 man raid might be needed and the constant agro swapping needed.

 

I like star wars alot and would never play AOC again unless a different company took it over but that game had one of the best combat system in any game and allowed them to design instances more based on mechanics and less on dps check. However stacking large amounts of healers or tanks still wasn't the way to go but you could get away with an extra here or there and not be punished for it. But sadly funcom has destroyed that game and caused ppl to leave it with a extremely low player base

[Undorett]

This came up awhile back and I think it is brought up by us EQ2 people. Fights there had "enrage timers" that were not just a mob enraging at a certain time. They were mechanics of the fight that would overcome you if you did not complete the fight in a specified time, most of them being unique to that fight. It was creative (like the Rathgar fight posted before), but it achieved the same goal. I think those of us who are accustomed to this type of encounter just miss it and dislike the little red buff on the mob that happens after a certain time in each fight. Add a raid where there are no red buff enrage timers, but there are things like adds spawning on a decaying timer, spawn in higher quantities on a stable timer, spawn in increasing difficulty on a stable timer (start with easy, then strong, then elite, etc), add buffs to players one by one that make it so they cannot damage the mob, give a mob increasing armor over the course of a fight to where you cannot even damage it at a certain point, etc. They are all ways of requiring a DPS check, but they feel different than the stupid red buff.

[DamenX]

ya man if there were no eanrage timers on raid bosses pepople could basically cheat the **** outta alot of mechaincs. brinign like 4 to 5 healers .... would take pretty much all the challenge away form the game.

[Brittaany_Banks]

Seriously, I understand the need for making things challenging, but is the only way to do that with an enrage timer? Just tired of every single fight having a time limit... Seems like there could be more creative ways to make the fights challenging.

 

if you are hitting the enrage timer this tells me survivability is there but DPS is lacking. You either have....

 

1) Too many tanks

2) Too many healers

3) Are too undergeared

 

4 man flashpoints should have 1 tank, 2 DPS, and 1 healer. 8 man EV should have 1 tank, 5 DPS, and 2 healers. KP should have 2 tanks, 4 DPS, and 2 healers.

[Leovinus]

if you are hitting the enrage timer this tells me survivability is there but DPS is lacking. You either have....

 

1) Too many tanks

2) Too many healers

3) Are too undergeared

 

4 man flashpoints should have 1 tank, 2 DPS, and 1 healer. 8 man EV should have 1 tank, 5 DPS, and 2 healers. KP should have 2 tanks, 4 DPS, and 2 healers.

 

The bolded is absolutely NOT the intended ops composition for EV. You only need to consider the dual guns, the puzzle, and the chance of the tank getting mindtrapped on Soa to realize that they fully intended a 2 tank setup in EV (not saying it's required, just intended, and if it's balanced around 5 dps, it's just flat out contradictory). (I was going to mention the composition of the counsel but I'm not 100% sure that doesn't change based on your raid setup).

Edited May 8, 2012 by Leovinus

[Wattser]

This came up awhile back and I think it is brought up by us EQ2 people. Fights there had "enrage timers" that were not just a mob enraging at a certain time. They were mechanics of the fight that would overcome you if you did not complete the fight in a specified time, most of them being unique to that fight. It was creative (like the Rathgar fight posted before), but it achieved the same goal. I think those of us who are accustomed to this type of encounter just miss it and dislike the little red buff on the mob that happens after a certain time in each fight. Add a raid where there are no red buff enrage timers, but there are things like adds spawning on a decaying timer, spawn in higher quantities on a stable timer, spawn in increasing difficulty on a stable timer (start with easy, then strong, then elite, etc), add buffs to players one by one that make it so they cannot damage the mob, give a mob increasing armor over the course of a fight to where you cannot even damage it at a certain point, etc. They are all ways of requiring a DPS check, but they feel different than the stupid red buff.

 

I 100% agree. Its too generic and simplistic. Timer hits, ding, red enrage buff. Thats it. Repeat for every fight. Just a little creativity would be nice.

[Brittaany_Banks]

The bolded is absolutely NOT the intended ops composition for EV. You only need to consider the dual guns, the puzzle, and the chance of the tank getting mindtrapped on Soa to realize that they fully intended a 2 tank setup in EV (not saying it's required, just intended, and if it's balanced around 5 dps, it's just flat out contradictory). (I was going to mention the composition of the counsel but I'm not 100% sure that doesn't change based on your raid setup).

 

Know what... you are absolutely right. Now that my swiss cheese brain remembers it there was never a time we did not take 2 tanks into EV. Thanks

[Leovinus]

Know what... you are absolutely right. Now that my swiss cheese brain remembers it there was never a time we did not take 2 tanks into EV. Thanks

 

Looking back, I think I may have come across kind of agressive-like. That wasn't intentional, and I apologize if I did.

[Kagek]

DPS check is a bogus excuse for an enrage timer. This fight was a DPS check with no enrage timer and used thought:

Rathgar:

Rathgar is a pure DPS fight plain and simple. 30 seconds into the fight and then one minute or so afterwards he will one shot your tank and every minute after. Rathgar will gain one level every time he kills someone. If he reaches level 99 he will one shot every single person he targets(starts at 94).

 

This means you need atleast two tanks in your raid and rezzing them quickly so they can get back on the mob to get the next one shot will be crucial. The tanks can be the ONLY people in your raid to die.

 

You need to kill Rathgar in under 4 minutes ideally with NO ONE but your tanks taking the deaths. This means your total raid dps needs to be around 300-500k dps to achieve this as he does have a decent amount of HP.

 

Um, thats one of the worst encounter design I've ever heard of. Who'ld want to be a tank if that means duying over and over? That's a nice repair bill for them and I don't see anything fun in duying and being resurrected multiple times during the fight because thats the way they designed the fight.

[Leovinus]

Um, thats one of the worst encounter design I've ever heard of. Who'ld want to be a tank if that means duying over and over? That's a nice repair bill for them and I don't see anything fun in duying and being resurrected multiple times during the fight because thats the way they designed the fight.

 

It was an example. In the game it comes from, in combat resurrection isn't unusual or uncommon, and repair charges per death are easily covered by the amount of coin dropped in the chest. The point was there are a lot of great ways to design dps checks without resorting to a hard time>X, Mob gets ********* buff and you all die style. That's just a flat out lazy one.

[Lymain]

Nice to see some EQ2 players! That game did have some interesting dps checks when they weren't just throwing timed adds at us, heh.

[Kagek]

It was an example. In the game it comes from, in combat resurrection isn't unusual or uncommon, and repair charges per death are easily covered by the amount of coin dropped in the chest. The point was there are a lot of great ways to design dps checks without resorting to a hard time>X, Mob gets ********* buff and you all die style. That's just a flat out lazy one.

 

Well, I don't think Enrage Timer is that horrible, at least it's not like you all immediately drop dead when the timer is reached. Yeah the mob is 1 shotting people but if you're really close you might still be able to bring it down. Plus with some bosses having a slow attack rate it gives you quite a bit of extra time.

 

In the end if you've hit the Enrage Timer and was able to defeat the boss with half the raid dead then you know you weren't quite perfect and have room for improvement but you're not punshed with having to restart the entire fight.

 

I don't really see why people are looking for innovation in encounter design all the time. If you have a tried and true raid mechanic, why stay away from it? Are you really going to be able to invent something better or are you more likely to just annoy people?

[Lymain]

Well, I don't think Enrage Timer is that horrible, at least it's not like you all immediately drop dead when the timer is reached. Yeah the mob is 1 shotting people but if you're really close you might still be able to bring it down. Plus with some bosses having a slow attack rate it gives you quite a bit of extra time.

 

In the end if you've hit the Enrage Timer and was able to defeat the boss with half the raid dead then you know you weren't quite perfect and have room for improvement but you're not punshed with having to restart the entire fight.

 

I don't really see why people are looking for innovation in encounter design all the time. If you have a tried and true raid mechanic, why stay away from it? Are you really going to be able to invent something better or are you more likely to just annoy people?

 

It's not the worst mechanic in the world, but it's far from perfect. I think variety is important in raid encounters, and different dps checks could help with that to a degree.

[ImmortalAlien]

More creative enrages will come in later content. We all just have to suffer with the rushed aspects of endgame, including stuff like bugs. The hard enrage timer is a necessary part of flashpoints until Bioware can get the time to develop a fight with a more creative enrage.

[Undorett]

Um, thats one of the worst encounter design I've ever heard of. Who'ld want to be a tank if that means duying over and over? That's a nice repair bill for them and I don't see anything fun in duying and being resurrected multiple times during the fight because thats the way they designed the fight.

 

As our raid MT it was one of my favorite encounter designs...5 deaths was way less than most encounters lol.

[sausage]

Lost Island seems to have some neat enrage timers, with Lorrick turning into a rakghou and getting stronger and stronger as that phase goes on, and the droid spewing lightning while setting the entire floor on fire.

 

That said, I agree that most of the enrage timers are just the lazy man's way of a gear check.

Edited May 9, 2012 by sausage

[Raekor]

I think some of the enrage timers are stupid. Get it on the first boss of EV, a wipe unless you are 20K from killing him. Get it on Gharg, step up healing and keep going.

 

I'd prefer the mechanics to be the enrages on most of the fights. More and more spawns on Pylons for example, filling the floor with fire on Karraga, or Gharg could have X waves of normal adds and then they start getting stronger until they overpower the op. Only been to minesweeper in EC, so not sure of their mechanics that could be adapted.

 

Much better than the boss saying to himself "oh wait, 5 minutes exactly have passed time to go super, kill these guys, and grab a beer".

[Jtbaker]

I think some of the enrage timers are stupid. Get it on the first boss of EV, a wipe unless you are 20K from killing him. Get it on Gharg, step up healing and keep going.

 

I'd prefer the mechanics to be the enrages on most of the fights. More and more spawns on Pylons for example, filling the floor with fire on Karraga, or Gharg could have X waves of normal adds and then they start getting stronger until they overpower the op. Only been to minesweeper in EC, so not sure of their mechanics that could be adapted.

 

Much better than the boss saying to himself "oh wait, 5 minutes exactly have passed time to go super, kill these guys, and grab a beer".

 

Yep. soft enrages > hard enrages. This especially makes me mad in HM EC. "Well, 5 min are up time to die." Well, you lost a dps midway through the fight, might as well wipe it because there's no hope for you now." I understand the importance of enrage timers and what BW is trying to prevent guilds from doing by implementing them. But there are better ways to implement a system to prevent guilds from using a gimmick to eliminate the true challenge. Personally, as a long time end game raider, I prefer complex mechanics of an encounter vs. fear the enrage timer the most. Because at that point, all you remember of the boss is the enrage timer and everything else because secondary. Which is not how modern day PvE encounters should be handled.

[Zalgred]

I don't like enrage timers, and here its why: Takes the fun out of the fight, and turns it into a dps race, without any other thing to really worry about.

 

I have done 2 operations in the game: Eternity Vault and Karagga's Palace. And both of them have some very fun fights.

 

EV: Gharj and SOA. Both of them offer more than just tank and spank, and you have to worry about more than just doing dps like crazy to avoid the enrage timer.

 

KP: Jarg and Sorno, G4-BC Heavy Fabricator and Karagga. Tricky fights were you have to actually divide your group and do some thinking, and its not just dps like crazy as fast as you can.

 

The fights mentioned above are, at least for me, an example of what's fun in a boss fight... I have done the HM of these and i really think the stupid "hit enrage timer and be dead right away" thing just takes the fun away...

Edited May 9, 2012 by Zalgred

[Kaonis]

The short answer to why BW put it in? Because they were lazy and didn't want to spend time making REAL difficulty. It also was probably a stupid attempt to make the game more "hardcore" and "difficult" to appease the whiners who number crunch their rotation/gear for the perfect set up and want the game to be for only the most dedicated. It's a stupid thing that needs to be changed to soft enrages, else Bioware will lose the casual gamers (as I'm certain they already are) and I doubt the hardcore people have the numbers to support the game by any appreciable amount.

[GragorArtis]

The short answer is because Bioware hates you. The longer and truthful answer is to make it more challenging cause its like whats the point in fighting it if its that easy. Its also to check the dpses are focusing and the healers are healing like they'res no tomorrow.

[Xarielle]

The main culprit behind the enrage timers in this game is the fact that healers have infinite resource as long as they manage it. You don't even need to add 7 healers and 1 tank. An 8 man group with 2 tanks 3 dps and 3 healers would be unkillable every encounter unless someone died to an instant kill mechanic.

[Raekor]

Unkillable, hardly. Most soft enrage/add overwhelm/floor covering mechanics that have been described would kill that group. They would just last a little a longer if they get to that stage over the normal set up.

[Xarielle]

Unkillable, hardly. Most soft enrage/add overwhelm/floor covering mechanics that have been described would kill that group. They would just last a little a longer if they get to that stage over the normal set up.

 

You are talking about mechanics that aren't in the game and I'm talking about current mechanics without the enrage timer.

[Raekor]

Some of them are in the game, just not as well implemented as we are talking about.

 

We practically agree though, instead of using thought and good design they screwed the encounters by using an arbitrary hard enrage after X time simply to force an "optimum" group set up. Worse than that, a lot of encounters really only require 1 tank (example Karraga). Do they tune those for a 2/4/2 group, or a 2(one in dps gear)/4/2, or a 1/5/2? If either of the first ones, does that mean people that do 1/5/2 are cheating the encounter as they can beat the timer a lot easier?

 

All this talk about hard enrages has got me thinking about the encounters, and I think by far the worst one is the Council in EV. Don't beat it X time, they disappear. Sure there isn't a repair cost, but it's stupid.