PvP Lethality Convert

[QisaBluevixen]

I was skeptical.

 

I was critical.

 

I was even, admittedly, a bit scared. I'd played Lethality on my Sniper, but the short range on Cull and the TA requirement seemed like hell.

 

But I was also fed up with feeling weak in PvP with Concealment. Weak damage on a dps spec is just frustrating. I was hoping that getting up to full BM gear would help, but alas no. Last night I was trying to decide if I was even having fun any more. Go back to my Sniper? Switch to heals (yuck)? Stick to PvE (yawn)? Quit?

 

So tonight I finally took the plunge and tried Lethality. I warmed up on Black Hole daily quests and got my keybinds worked out, but I wasn't feeling really comfortable. I kept running out of energy and never seemed to have TA up when I needed it. Against my better judgement I decided to dive in head first and queued up for PvP.

 

My first 3 matches (solo non-premade) were:

1) Huttball - 347k damage (2nd on my team was 177k), 2 MVP votes, 12 medals

2) Voidstar - 415k damage, 0 MVP votes (Sorc got 430k damage), 9 medals (wasn't near doors enough)

3) Civil War - 352k damage, 3 MVP votes, 13 medals

 

More importantly, all 3 were wins. This was huge for me. I'm used to the mid to high 100k range.

 

I had always questioned the big Lethality numbers figuring they were meaninglessly inflated. I can be honest and admit that some of it surely is simply padding the enemy's heal stats. And surely "any compentent healer will clear the DoTs". But I was paying specific attention to how many people were running around with a good chunk of their health gone and was surprised at how often the damage "stuck". Softening up everyone and stepping in here and there with Weakening Blast/Cull was amazingly effective. The TA requirement on Cull is onerous, but actually less so than the cooldown on the Sniper version - I can actually get it off 2 or 3 times with a single DoT application. That hurts. And the extra cooldown time on Backstab isn't as noticeable when you're not using it as much. What's really cool is watching someone's health burn away while you are chain stunned. I hadn't even considered that benefit.

 

What really shocked me was my survivability. I'm used to being constantly squished in no time. But I didn't have more than 2 deaths in any of those 3 warzones. People really are tab-targetting and I'm no longer the melee running around in their wheelhouse. Corrosive Dart is all but invisible to the target. I spam it on everyone and they don't even turn my way.

 

Just finished 2 more while writing this:

Huttball - 410k (2nd on my team was 164k) - 15 (!) medals - we won

Voidstar - an incredible 0-0 win - my team literally was all DPS and I was #1 at 378k damage, 8 deaths (least on my team), 8 medals (still too far from doors)

 

In those last 2, I could see a few enemies actually getting pissed at me. One was a Valor 76 Powertech that I could tell was used to people bouncing off him. I nearly killed him - shocked me as much as him I think - he had to burn a WZ heal to win. In the Huttball, 3 people chased me into their own pit when I tried to escape despite a close game.

 

These are my first 5 warzones as Lethality. These are not pick-and-choose victories. I have screenshots of 4 of them.

 

It's 1 AM and I really need to get to bed but I'm having fun for the first time in weeks!

 

I'm not going back.

[Charena]

Thanks for sharing your experience. Always nice to hear some positive feedback. Still playing with my own build, have tried all three trees but only Level 34 at the moment. Still cant make my mind up lol. What build did you use, would you mind posting please. Thanks again.

[QisaBluevixen]

I really haven't kept up with the relative usefulness of various Lethality talents, so this may be totally screwy:

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#401bcZGZhrbkrrhdhR.1

 

Most of the Lethality talents are pretty clear which to take. The only variation I'd see would be between Adhesive Corrosives (for slowing the enemy down a bit) and Escape Plan (reducing cooldown on Evasion and Shield Probe). I'm really bad about using Shield Probe when I should, so I'm going to have to get good at that before I start worrying about reducing the cooldown. That's why I went with Adhesive Corrosives.

 

For the other points, Imperial Education (+Cunning) and Imperial Brew (+Corrosive Dart damage) seem like no-brainers. Precision Instruments seems pretty important as well since I use all 3 abilities it improves a lot, so every bit of energy savings on those will go a long way.

 

For the last couple points there are 7 appealing choices - it just comes down to what you value most based on your play style. I've opted for more crit chance on Backstab and Hidden Strike for now, but I'm not using Hidden Strike much so those points might be more efficiently spent elsewhere.

[khouj]

For the last couple points there are 7 appealing choices - it just comes down to what you value most based on your play style. I've opted for more crit chance on Backstab and Hidden Strike for now, but I'm not using Hidden Strike much so those points might be more efficiently spent elsewhere.

Incisive action is strong for leth.

[Xavory]

For the last couple points there are 7 appealing choices - it just comes down to what you value most based on your play style. I've opted for more crit chance on Backstab and Hidden Strike for now, but I'm not using Hidden Strike much so those points might be more efficiently spent elsewhere.

 

I'm running 7/3/31, grabbing 2/3 in Medical Consult. You would be surprised how big an extra 4 seconds on TA can be.

[MobiusZero]

Heh, it's a shame people are starting to catch on, about Lethality. I was kind of enjoying how we were so rare.

 

It's funny how many idiots I've argued with on the forums, who seem to think that Lethality is just about spamming DoT's and going afk, and getting 300k+ DPS.

 

And when I tell people I typically die 1 or 2 times a WZ, they think I am making it up. The survivability of Lethality is awesome!

[QisaBluevixen]

The survivability was what has shocked me the most. It isn't that Lethality makes you any less squishy, it's just that people really are pretty much ignoring anything that isn't right in their face. I tend to let others get into the fray then strafe around the outside dropping DoTs. Once everyone is busy, I pop in and help out with Weakening Blast/Shiv/Cull or Backstab/Debilitate as needed. If things get too hot, I hit Evasion/Cover Screen and reset. This works really well except in Voidstar - that is to say it works fine in Voidstar, but you seem to have to be dangerously close to the doors to get offense/defense medals - I still get 8 or 9, but not the 12 or 13 I get in other warzones. I only die about half as much as I did as Concealment, though, which of course boosts all my numbers.

 

My favorite part about Lethality, though, is that enemies don't know what to do with you. It's pretty obvious you are an Imperial Agent just by your looks, so they figure they are safe out of melee range unless you drop into cover or into stealth. I've seen lots of people stand there waiting for me to make a move, meanwhile I'm shooting darts and grenades at them. Then, if I'm not cocky, I actually duck behind something. That's when they start to panic. Suddenly, they're at 50% health and haven't laid a hand on me. Then they have to decide if they engage or run. Either way, I like my odds.

 

But best of all, since I switched specs I am 9-0 in warzones - all solo join, no premades. I'm making a difference to the outcome and that's a good feeling. I can't wait to play again! Damn you, responsibilities!

[SWToRBurns]

I'd have to say from my experience, it's no more survivable unless you are playing against people that generally are terrible.

 

I play on a very small server with the same republic team over and over. Their warriors single me out and chain smash me every game reguardless of spec once I am in their sights. Decreasing the CD of Shield Probe/Eva does diddly and Squat when there's 3 rage spec'd warriors chain smashing you.

 

I literally (I went over and asked) had a mark on me from the second I entered any WZ, merely because I have the capacity to heal. Their teams are coordinated, and using VOIP software, so their targets are called, and die within 4-8 seconds. This is what you will see once rated/full 8 queueing comes out. You will NOT be left alone in the back DoT's people or allowed to LoS. You will be insta chargesmashed/grav rounded/pebbled/rock toss'd before you can even think.

 

Played all yesterday (~15 wz, yes our queues are slow) and while I had more than respectable damage numbers, my amount of deaths went up from not being able to restealth due to DoTs still ticking on enimies and not wanting to blow vanish when I'm coming out of the med center. I'm not a fan of the slower gameplay, and the CD on C Grenade, for something that's so integral to our DPS, not having it up 100% on your target is a real bummer.

 

At one point a tank shadow/dps sage combo were guarding a door. I manage to sleep dart the tank, and go to work on the sage who isn't even heal spec, and they just stand there, literally doing nothing but slow, and bubbling themselves. In /say I asked *** they were doing.

 

"You're ignorable in w/e spec you're in atm, go back to Stabby."

 

This is my experience with Leth, even the shiv/WBlast/Cull is negligable when you have competent healers on the opposing team, or poor DPS pressure on the off side. The caveat here is my server's Reps only have about 10 people total, so when they PVP they know exactly what they are going to get.

 

Sure, left alone, on a server no one knows you from the next agent, you can probably rack things up by hiding behind your team mates spamming dots, then going in for the burst kill. Against people that know you are dangerous/squishy, you get blown up faster than you can lament the loss of the giggle.

 

My 0.02, I'll stick with Conc/Healing. I'm not saying Leth is "bad" I just don't seem to have what it takes to play the spec to someone like Mzero's level, but then again I'm just an idiot that likes to argue.

Edited May 7, 2012 by SWToRBurns

[KrittaB]

I've done the same, except I ended up dropping weakening blast and dove into the concealment branch to get lacerate + collateral damage + proc for an extra TA. I love it. Now once every 10 seconds I can get a free TA from a lacerate proc that I can then spam cull + shiv + cull again for massive damage. I'm loving this hybrid spec.

[Arrys]

I've done the same, except I ended up dropping weakening blast and dove into the concealment branch to get lacerate + collateral damage + proc for an extra TA. I love it. Now once every 10 seconds I can get a free TA from a lacerate proc that I can then spam cull + shiv + cull again for massive damage. I'm loving this hybrid spec.

 

As a healer having been used as a guinea pig test dummy for a cull build I must say the weakening blast sub 30% damage boost is scary. It's closing burst capacity which as an operative healer relying on SP spam I couldn't outheal. It's the kind of burst needed to close a fight out. What I'm used to seeing from decent snipers marauders and PT's. I have back end survival (SP spam), CULL(weakinging blast) builds are a very good counter to it. Glad I don't see it very often.

 

Not saying your build is bad but I'ld have a hard time giving up such a powerful kill closer as weakening blast after having it tested on me.

 

If conceal is front end burst, lethality(weakening blast) is back end burst and as an operative healer back end kills me better.

[Xavory]

I literally (I went over and asked) had a mark on me from the second I entered any WZ, merely because I have the capacity to heal. Their teams are coordinated, and using VOIP software, so their targets are called, and die within 4-8 seconds. This is what you will see once rated/full 8 queueing comes out. You will NOT be left alone in the back DoT's people or allowed to LoS. You will be insta chargesmashed/grav rounded/pebbled/rock toss'd before you can even think.

 

You are describing what happens when solo que'ers run into an 8 man premade.........Here is a tip: there is no spec that will let you overcome that. Get a group of equal or greater skill/composition and your spec will begin to matter. Lethality is the better of the two Operative DPS trees for grouping. Concealment is better for soloing,solo queing or 1v1's, simply because of the nature of playstyle.

[QisaBluevixen]

Concealment is better for soloing,solo queing or 1v1's, simply because of the nature of playstyle.

 

I might have said the same last week, but after trying Lethality I'd say it is better even in these situations. I played Concealment until I felt like I was as good as I could be and was on the verge of quitting. I just couldn't kill anything but under-geared newbies. I tried Lethality as a last-ditch effort to keep from shelving my Operative and I just feel significantly more confident with Lethality even after just a few warzones of experience.

[furiousferret]

Funny, I just respec'ed lethality on Sunday and am loving it. I've been a Medic for the last few months, as the concealment playstyle was just too slow for me (hence why I have 2 Force Charge chars).

 

A friend of mine regularly does 600k on his lethality Op, and while I'm no where near that but I do okay.

 

Its fun 1v1'ing someone where you start out hardly doing any damage than it just slowly peels down to nothing.

 

I think the nice thing about the spec is that stealth isn't a requirement. Often times Its a matter if I want to use my grenades, or hidden strike. Having to go in and out of melee is a nice change of pace from, well, pretty much every class in the game.

 

I do think I'm going to dump Counterstrike for Incisive Action. The class is really all about getting tactical advantage.

[MobiusZero]

I've never been a big fan of hybrid builds, myself, even pre-1.2. I prefer a 7/3/31 or 6/3/32 (no devouring microbes, in either case.).

Weakening blast, Imperial Brew, and counterstrike (and now lingering toxins), are too integral to the spec for me to want to give them up for a TA generator.

Edited May 7, 2012 by MobiusZero

[QisaBluevixen]

Just an update. I went 10-0 before losing a squeaker for my first Lethality loss. I haven't been quite so lucky since then, but I'm still definitely getting more wins, commendations, and MVPs than as Concealment. I even managed this beauty in a tough Voidstar battle where they just had too many healers (lots of damage and few deaths for our team, but no progress). This is in full BM gear (no augments or anything fancy) with a WH earpiece. I never get many medals in Voidstar because I don't tend to stand in the metal area in front of the door - it just doesn't make sense.

 

https://skydrive.live.com/embed?cid=765B1C82BF91F3FE&resid=765B1C82BF91F3FE%21548&authkey=APsw05nP7Cj4PGw

 

Some more observations as I've had more experience:

 

1) I'm considering that Lethality may do *too much* damage. I'm not saying it's overpowered, because our squishiness balances it out - I'm saying when you consistently do high damage, people start looking for you. I'm starting to get the same attention from the hurt train that healers get where I used to go relatively unnoticed. It doesn't help that I have a distinctive "shark hat" I love to wear (an oj imperial honor guard helm from Belsavis commendations). I'm loathe to give it up, but may have to in order to regain some anonymity.

2) As a byproduct of #1, I'm seriously considering avoiding upping my damage further as I upgrade to WH gear. I may instead load up on Endurance and just keep my damage in the 300k-400k range.

3) Lethality energy management in PvP is rough. I'm constantly finding myself with no energy and Adrenaline Probe down. That sucks. I can weave in Rifle Shots, but that points to where I am where Corrosive Dart and Orbital Strike don't. Bleh.

[Xblackheart]

You're right, As soon as you start crossing into the 300k range you will be marked and focus fired BEFORE healers. The ability to spread damage out and a finisher means that you are an annoyance that can't be allowed because you are making their healers swap targets. There is no reason to not finish you off, because it still comes down to the fact that you are an operative with only one real escape maneuver it's a 3 min cooldown because it's not in your skill tree.

 

The short 10m range is a definite drawback, a sniper would be a better choice. But then, who wants to reroll unless they have to? Because frankly Lethality is the ONLY choice (it doesn't mean it's a good one). Concealment is broken and if you have done any grinding for gear at all it's too late to go back and get medic gear.

[MobiusZero]

...it still comes down to the fact that you are an operative with only one real escape maneuver it's a 3 min cooldown because it's not in your skill tree.

 

I didn't realize Slip Away, Counterstrike, and Adhesive Corrosives + Sever Tendon didn't count. Oh, and let's not overlook the fact that Escape Plan > Advanced Cloaking.

 

The short 10m range is a definite drawback, a sniper would be a better choice. But then, who wants to reroll unless they have to? Because frankly Lethality is the ONLY choice (it doesn't mean it's a good one). Concealment is broken and if you have done any grinding for gear at all it's too late to go back and get medic gear.

 

Except a sniper has a cooldown on Cull (which also does half the damage ours does), lacks stealth, can't heal, etc.. I'm not saying one is better than the other, but I hate when people try to act like a Lethality Sniper > Lethality Operative, because that is simply not the case. Both of them have their roles.