Dragonexadon Posted May 3, 2012 Share Posted May 3, 2012 It's really disheartening to hear. Yet most raid groups that our progressing seem to rather take a shadow over a guardian every-time. I would love to hear from Bioware, or the community, what reason a raid group would take a guardian tank over a shadow at the current state and if there is no reason what can be done to change guardians to make them a tank worth having in a raid. P.S. I know content is still possible to down with Guardians for sure . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VoidJustice Posted May 3, 2012 Share Posted May 3, 2012 (edited) It's just a sad reality of being a Guardian... It's not really fair... but, it's the way BW made us. Shadows are much tougher than we are and therefore, make the content easier. Edited May 3, 2012 by VoidJustice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Bucket Posted May 3, 2012 Share Posted May 3, 2012 Iv'e never had this issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaypee Posted May 6, 2012 Share Posted May 6, 2012 Iv'e never had this issue. If you do any type of end game progression, this issue becomes apparent very quickly, we are easily the weakest of the 3 tank classes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonexadon Posted May 7, 2012 Author Share Posted May 7, 2012 If you do any type of end game progression, this issue becomes apparent very quickly, we are easily the weakest of the 3 tank classes. I agree , I often ask the question to Biowares Q and A what advantages are there with a guardian tank over the other 2 tanks with no response yet sadly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galecc Posted May 7, 2012 Share Posted May 7, 2012 I agree , I often ask the question to Biowares Q and A what advantages are there with a guardian tank over the other 2 tanks with no response yet sadly. If I ever caught one of those QA's I would echo the question with you, Though I'm a DPS Guardian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stealios Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 It's really disheartening to hear. Yet most raid groups that our progressing seem to rather take a shadow over a guardian every-time. I would love to hear from Bioware, or the community, what reason a raid group would take a guardian tank over a shadow at the current state and if there is no reason what can be done to change guardians to make them a tank worth having in a raid. P.S. I know content is still possible to down with Guardians for sure . The people you group with are *****. Yeah it's true that guardians have a harder time, but it's definitely possible to clear EV/KP NiM and EC HM with guardians doing the tanking. It's not as easy, but this game isn't really that hard anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ViridisDraco Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 do the shadow have the -20% armor debuff? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dracosz Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 It's really disheartening to hear. Yet most raid groups that our progressing seem to rather take a shadow over a guardian every-time. I would love to hear from Bioware, or the community, what reason a raid group would take a guardian tank over a shadow at the current state and if there is no reason what can be done to change guardians to make them a tank worth having in a raid. P.S. I know content is still possible to down with Guardians for sure . Take it from someone that's cleared all the NM and HM content this game has to offer, there is literally NO difference between having a guardian tank or a shadow tank in your raids if they're geared and know what they're doing (Pretty much applies for all tanks tbh). if your groups are failing and you have gear, then it's probably your own fault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonexadon Posted May 8, 2012 Author Share Posted May 8, 2012 (edited) Take it from someone that's cleared all the NM and HM content this game has to offer, there is literally NO difference between having a guardian tank or a shadow tank in your raids if they're geared and know what they're doing (Pretty much applies for all tanks tbh). if your groups are failing and you have gear, then it's probably your own fault. I cleared all the content this game has to offer minus EC HM. They are not failing because of me. I can perform all the content. There are slight differences that you should research before putting a general statement of "they are the same, if they fail it is because of you" Cool-downs and damage per second are very different. Staggering a 3 min cool down is not difficult to do, but when boss mechanics, like incinerate armor, happen more often then my 3 min cool down is ready for there is no skill in the world that can magically make it so. I do survive this mechanic though by using other methods to stay alive (popping trinkets, blade storm to shield a very small bit of damage, enure to buffer the damage when it is up, ect) However that being said it is easy for a DPS with taunt to taunt the left tank away from me during the process of incinerate armor. That said with a shadows 2 min cool down defense cool downs they are off cool down for each IA and can be staggered with ease. here is one example for you. In short Shadows have better burst damage control while guardians seem to have slightly better over all damage mitigation. However that slight advantage is very much outweighed by the burst mitigation imho. Edited May 8, 2012 by Dragonexadon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLakers Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 (edited) If you do any type of end game progression, this issue becomes apparent very quickly, we are easily the weakest of the 3 tank classes. Nope. Guardian tank > Vanguard. While Shadows are incredibility imbalanced in pvp and pve, a geared Guardians will not hinder a raid group in EC. I can promise you that. This is coming from someone that has cleared HM EC without a Shadow Tank. But I do admit, I don't see the point of a Vanguard tank other than their pull, which Shadows can already do. Vanguards easily have the weakest cooldowns and least mobility as far as tank's are concerned. But the Guardian tank tree definietely needs some tweaking. First and foremost, Bio ware needs to give our freaking HP talent back and make Command not useless. Courage and Cyclonic sweeps are also dumb talents that only really help our lack of inherent focus generation that should not exist in the first place. The upper-half of the defense tree needs to be completely redesigned. Edited May 9, 2012 by TheLakers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kbexp Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 The first character I made was a guardian played it all the way to lvl 50, i was pretty happy with it on the pve side of things but when it came to pvp *facepalm*. Then i made a shadow class with a mate of mine and it honestly sh*ts all over guardian in general, they can take alot of damage and they hit twice as hard as guardians, honestly if you are thinking of making a tank class go with a shadow! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malissant Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 There is nothing wrong with Guardian Tanks. They aren't weak or in comparison "Bad" compared to other tanks. My guild runs two JG as the Main tanks (I'm one of them) and we have no issues with any content. Staggering a 3 min cool down is not difficult to do, but when boss mechanics, like incinerate armor, happen more often then my 3 min cool down is ready for there is no skill in the world that can magically make it so. I do survive this mechanic though by using other methods to stay alive (popping trinkets, blade storm to shield a very small bit of damage, enure to buffer the damage when it is up, ect) However that being said it is easy for a DPS with taunt to taunt the left tank away from me during the process of incinerate armor. That said with a shadows 2 min cool down defense cool downs they are off cool down for each IA and can be staggered with ease. That's because you should be tank swapping at this point, not trying to heal through it. Learning mechanics > using defensive cooldowns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blurps Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 (edited) That's because you should be tank swapping at this point, not trying to heal through it. Learning mechanics > using defensive cooldowns. If I can't run into the room, AoE taunt and facetank everything in there, there is only one possible explanation: My class must be broken Edited May 9, 2012 by Blurps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonexadon Posted May 9, 2012 Author Share Posted May 9, 2012 (edited) There is nothing wrong with Guardian Tanks. They aren't weak or in comparison "Bad" compared to other tanks. My guild runs two JG as the Main tanks (I'm one of them) and we have no issues with any content. That's because you should be tank swapping at this point, not trying to heal through it. Learning mechanics > using defensive cooldowns. I already know this mechanic, this is one of the reason the fight is better with a shadow as they do not need to tank swap for this phase due to their 2 min cool down. And side note a better soultion to this, as a jedi guardian, is to use a DPS with taunt to taunt the boss off of you while you have the debuff. Edited May 9, 2012 by Dragonexadon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonexadon Posted May 9, 2012 Author Share Posted May 9, 2012 If I can't run into the room, AoE taunt and facetank everything in there, there is only one possible explanation: My class must be broken Not what I am saying at all. Title of the page is they would rather take a guardian. Not "my class is broken" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLakers Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 (edited) I already know this mechanic, this is one of the reason the fight is better with a shadow as they do not need to tank swap for this phase due to their 2 min cool down. And side note a better soultion to this, as a jedi guardian, is to use a DPS with taunt to taunt the boss off of you while you have the debuff. There is no reason not to tank swap unless your tanks/healers are completely incompetent and in that case you have bigger things to worry about. It's not hard. Not all DPS have a taunt. Edited May 9, 2012 by TheLakers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonexadon Posted May 10, 2012 Author Share Posted May 10, 2012 There is no reason not to tank swap unless your tanks/healers are completely incompetent and in that case you have bigger things to worry about. It's not hard. Not all DPS have a taunt. I am not sure if you think I don't this or if you believe you are informing me that all DPS don't have taunts. Either way that's fine. Nor is it the point of this post. There is an easy reason not to tank swap. If you have a shadow on the left they can easily eat the damage and thus make things easier. If you also do the idea where a DPS , like a guardian DPS, taunts it also makes things easier. The original point of the post was not to say if mechanics are harder or easier one way or the other though. As I said many times I can do the content, I know the mechanics, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLakers Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 If you have a shadow on the left they can easily eat the damage and thus make things easier. It doesn't make things easier when you're blowing a cooldown for an ability that can easily be avoided 100% of the time by people that know what they are doing. If you also do the idea where a DPS , like a guardian DPS, taunts it also makes things easier. The original point of the post was not to say if mechanics are harder or easier one way or the other though. DPS taunting is a terrible idea when you can just have the other tank taunt it with little effort. As I said many times I can do the content, I know the mechanics, That's fine. But you're doing said content inefficiently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonexadon Posted May 10, 2012 Author Share Posted May 10, 2012 (edited) It doesn't make things easier when you're blowing a cooldown for an ability that can easily be avoided 100% of the time by people that know what they are doing. DPS taunting is a terrible idea when you can just have the other tank taunt it with little effort. That's fine. But you're doing said content inefficiently. The idea I told you was not from myself, it was from Cerzka corp, the first guild in our server to clear HM EC. To state one thing is easier than another is relative. I think blowing a 2 min cool down and being able to absorb most of the damage is easier then jumping to a new target and building new threat. You saying DPS taunting is a terrible idea makes me feel like you never tried this tactic or seen it in action. It is an amazing idea. The tank does little damage to the DPS during this phase. It is easy to theory craft that it is a terrible idea but I have seen it and used it in action and it works great. Have you? Either way not the point of my thread. This is not about boss mechanics. If you are saying I should switch tanks so be it. However I am saying Shadows don't need to because of their cool downs If you are saying I am doing things wrong due to mechanics and shadows need not follow these mechanics does that not make their class the perfered class to bring? Would you not rather have a class that, if they mess up, they have more chance to recover through it? More of a buffer? I think so. To say a class is balanced with another because "you just have to follow mechanics and you can tank it" when the other class can ignore it is not very logical IMHO. Edited May 10, 2012 by Dragonexadon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonexadon Posted May 10, 2012 Author Share Posted May 10, 2012 (edited) Side note about the DPS Taunt tactic http://mmo-mechanics.com/swtor/forums/Thread-EC-Firebrand-and-Stormcaller-Hard-Mode?pid=20358#pid20358 "If you're tank swapping on HM your making this fight harder than it needs to be. I usually don't give strats out but you only need a class with a taunt to help your FB tank (we use an Assassin). If you call out DD then have that person count to 2 then taunt he/she will become the target of Incin Armor then once it's done casting have the FB tank taunt back. This is by far and away the best way to approach this fight. There's no tank swap and neither tank needs to worry about losing aggro on either tanks." Edited May 10, 2012 by Dragonexadon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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