HurricaneXXIV Posted May 2, 2012 Share Posted May 2, 2012 The difference on heavy and medium armor is 4%. And its proven on so many posts over and over... Can you link me to any of these posts? Is it 4 % across the board? Is it 4% physical? Is it 4% with an untalented jug? Does the % change as gear improves? Is 4% off damage all the time better than 20% for 6-30 seconds? Do you have higher HP than sents? I'm very curious where this 4% comes from because I would much rather attack a sent than a jug in group combat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madeira Posted May 2, 2012 Share Posted May 2, 2012 (edited) And since there seems to be a trend regarding posting someone's prior statements regarding Marauders/Sentinels to help "debunk" their perspective, here is my core input regarding the class, which I still stand by: Increase the cooldown of Force Camo to 90 seconds - 4 seconds of stealth (or 6 if its feated) while having a 30% (50% if feated) increase to your movement speed is huge. Having that OH CRAP!!! button so frequently available is a bit much. Increase the cooldown of Undying Rage/Guarded by the Force to 3 minutes but have it only cost 25% of their health - Marauders/Sentinels do the right amount of damage but being able to do that kind damage relatively unchecked for a 5 second window is also a smidge much (you can tell the REALLY bad Marauders are the ones who only engage the enemy every 90 seconds. . . . hmmmmm?) These two changes are all that is needed to balance the class. Besides that players simply need to learn when to use their snares if a Marauder/Sentinel gets on them, not to mention help a teammate out with a well placed Taunt if they see a Marauder/Sentinel hulking out. Edited May 2, 2012 by Madeira Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghostuka Posted May 2, 2012 Share Posted May 2, 2012 Play a GS or a Sniper, we see a difference in high and medium armor. I would give away the heavy armor for medium if I had a cloak of pain. Not to mention the rest of the defensive CDs a mara has. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blloodbane Posted May 2, 2012 Share Posted May 2, 2012 "social engineer". . . . . ? . . . . . Anyway - this isn't a trap, its an attempt to highlight to you how ridiculous your attempt to counter his argument is. It is simply a matter of fact that Marauders are designed to do more DPS than a Jugg. It is also simply a matter of fact that Marauders have more defensive cooldowns than a Jugg. So when a Jugg says that he has no problems killing a Sniper, chances are if you put a Marauder in the hands of the same player he would kill that Sniper just as easily. THAT is the point of the post and its a solid one. This isn't to say that a Jugg doesn't have its merits. A fully Tank specced Jugg is not an easy target to kill (at the expense of a good amount of DPS) and Juggs have - in my humble opinion - WAY more group utility than a Marauder by the grace of their Taunts and ability to Guard. But again, if you are an Immortal specced Jugg (tank spec), you are not going to survive the DPS/mitigation race against a Sniper so obviously the Jugg has to be more DPS oriented. If that Jugg in question can burn down a Sniper than a Marauder, with more DPS and more survival tools while keeping that DPS, will be able to do it even easier. Not too hard of a concession to make mate. No need to get defensive about it. I will comment to the abilties in a second... MY point was he was clearly faking things and saying he knows the class... its quite literally apples oranges.... its like saying you know how to play a Sorc because you Play an assassin and then then assassin telling the sorc L2P because a Marauder or Sentinel kills them... See my point? Next, seriously, click on his name, go ot Stastics, then click find all post by him, and look at the last 3 pages... He goes from quite literally that Sages/Sorcs suck, Mara's are OP, and Why do Mara's have this and My Jig doesnt.... Just look... he HATES Marauders.... and now suddenly he's the expert on them and telling people that play a GS and Marauder L2P? If this doesnt make you go hmmmmm nothing else I can do if you cant see the wrong of this poster. Jugs have Heavy Armor period and like it or not, it does make a diference, you cant put a price on a permenant 10% (if not more) to all your defenses... its passive so no one likes to count in that its essentially a 10 to 15 minute buff in a WZ. Also, the DPS trees for Juggs as also modified and they also benefitted expertise change/increase... While Juggs have some same abilties, they are not the same and they have different defensive cooldowns as well. How many times have you seen a Jugg pretty much walk the ball from mid field to goal in huttball, now imagine that in medium armor.... he might make it about 3/4 of the way... But it still boils down comparing apples and oranges, while both fruits they taste different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unicornfive Posted May 2, 2012 Share Posted May 2, 2012 Can you link me to any of these posts? Is it 4 % across the board? Is it 4% physical? Is it 4% with an untalented jug? Does the % change as gear improves? Is 4% off damage all the time better than 20% for 6-30 seconds? Do you have higher HP than sents? I'm very curious where this 4% comes from because I would much rather attack a sent than a jug in group combat. 4% on kinetic and energy dmg taken Internal and elemental stays the same.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blloodbane Posted May 2, 2012 Share Posted May 2, 2012 (edited) And since there seems to be a trend regarding posting someone's prior statements regarding Marauders/Sentinels to help "debunk" their perspective, here is my core input regarding the class, which I still stand by: I am not saying there might not need to be a tweek (Expertise probably).... The issue remains people like to blend all the tree's in this nerf equation, and I play Carnage and if I didnt have my abilties my deaths would be much higher, unlike Anhilation, Carnage does not have ANY healing and probably a good reason why its not a popular class... That Force Camo, for 4 seconds (for Carnage) CAN be nice, but I have been hunted down and still killed in many ways... its not as impressive as people think it is... I wont lie its nice, but I think its more grass is greener effect and people hate stealth (which there was a thread about getting rid of stealth in WZ cus its OP).... Undying rage... is easy to defeat, not an I win button, easily recognizable..... Lets think in DnD terms of "core class" smiliarty... A. High Damage Weapons. B. Medium Armor C. Goes Beserk D. Rages before immenient death. E. Prone to Kill Casting classes. What does that sound like to you? About the only thing that really doesnt belong in that make up, is Force Camo, which if that would make people happy, you take it, its not that big of deal....and instead just give me 100% CC immunity with Undying rage and just make me a true barbarian.... Edited May 2, 2012 by Blloodbane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madeira Posted May 2, 2012 Share Posted May 2, 2012 (edited) How many times have you seen a Jugg pretty much walk the ball from mid field to goal in huttball, now imagine that in medium armor.... he might make it about 3/4 of the way... But it still boils down comparing apples and oranges, while both fruits they taste different. Here is the thing though - and I'd be surprised if you disagreed with me on this: A Jugg pops a Defensive cooldown to help prolong the DPS they are already dropping (assuming they are DPS specced) or survive those last few feet while they tank damage while heading for an objective. A Maurauder has SO many Defensive cooldowns that they can pop their one cooldown to set-up their DPS, and then pop another one to survive the encounter by getting the heck out of dodge if things go wrong. That is why I draw so much attention to Force Camo and Undying Rage - the two work WAY too well together (especially Force Camo. . . 45 sec cooldown - 6 sec if feated - 50% movement increase if feated. . . . thats insane!) As a Marauder you can literally save these two cooldowns to piggy back with one another for the sake of burning someone down and then 45 seconds later have another Force Camo to cause a ruckus. . . . . and that doesn't even mention your OTHER cooldowns. Now don't get me wrong, I've learned how to counter a Marauder - I now save my snare solely for the inevitable Marauder who pops their bubble for the sake of burning me down. But that still doesn't excuse the short cooldown on two abilities that really need to be spread out more. DPS is fine - adjust Defensive cooldown time. I can't help but see that as fair. Edited May 2, 2012 by Madeira Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unicornfive Posted May 2, 2012 Share Posted May 2, 2012 (edited) The "insane" dmg reduction difference between heavy and medium armor : BM geared jugg in shii-cho : http://www.screenshots.cc/original/66592/k88e7 BM geared (2 champion) mara in shii-cho : http://www.screenshots.cc/original/66618/nc7te If u wanna check formula's and stuff, u must search on other site. I couldnt find here any Edited May 2, 2012 by unicornfive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madeira Posted May 2, 2012 Share Posted May 2, 2012 (edited) The "insane" dmg reduction difference between heavy and medium armor : BM geared jugg in shii-cho : http://www.screenshots.cc/original/66592/k88e7 BM geared (2 champion) mara in shii-cho : http://www.screenshots.cc/original/66618/nc7te If u wanna check formula's and stuff, u must search on other site. I couldnt find here any C'mon folks - you've got to admit, considering how many more Defensive cooldowns a Maurauder has compared to a DPS Jugg, not to mention more DPS. . . . thats kind of twisted. EDIT: But again - Juggs are no slouch - they do have more group utility. . . . but still. Edited May 2, 2012 by Madeira Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lt_Latency Posted May 2, 2012 Share Posted May 2, 2012 (edited) I think the difference is suppose to be. Sents can use buff for short term survivability, While a jug can just stay alive naturally. If a sent and a jug are carrying a hutball with healers. A sent will will die before the jug. I also think there is a huge HP difference. I never see sents with HP close to some of the best geared jugs Edited May 2, 2012 by Lt_Latency Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blloodbane Posted May 2, 2012 Share Posted May 2, 2012 (edited) Here is the thing though - and I'd be surprised if you disagreed with me on this: A Jugg pops a Defensive cooldown to help prolong the DPS they are already dropping (assuming they are DPS specced) or survive those last few feet while they tank damage while heading for an objective. A Maurauder has SO many Defensive cooldowns that they can pop their one cooldown to set-up their DPS, and then pop another one to survive the encounter by getting the heck out of dodge if things go wrong. That is why I draw so much attention to Force Camo and Undying Rage - the two work WAY too well together (especially Force Camo. . . 45 sec cooldown - 6 sec if feated - 50% movement increase if feated. . . . thats insane!) As a Marauder you can literally save these two cooldowns to piggy back with one another for the sake of burning someone down and then 45 seconds later have another Force Camo to cause a ruckus. . . . . and that doesn't even mention your OTHER cooldowns. Now don't get me wrong, I've learned how to counter a Marauder - I now save my snare solely for the inevitable Marauder who pops their bubble for the sake of burning me down. But that still doesn't excuse the short cooldown on two abilities that really need to be spread out more. DPS is fine - adjust Defensive cooldown time. I can't help but see that as fair. You make it sound like they hundreds of CD's Saberward is 3min (juggs get this too) UR is 1.5 min (still killable and stopped) FC is 45 secs Cloak of Pain is a 20% DR for 30 secs and down 30 secs (if you keep on it) If you want to count Predation a group buff needs 30 fury and not spamable Basically, 4 defensive CD's, and used right difficult to circumvent, but easy still to catch on CD's... Only mara/sents have 4 defense right... Ok now lets count how many stuns, Knockback, Push or Pull or CC abilities they have... NONE... I cant tell you that I have been force lifted or whirlwind or stunned or knockbacked and rooted and so forth.... SO they have none of that but they have those defenses...sounds like a fair trade off to me... Edited May 2, 2012 by Blloodbane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unicornfive Posted May 2, 2012 Share Posted May 2, 2012 C'mon folks - you've got to admit, considering how many more Defensive cooldowns a Maurauder has compared to a DPS Jugg, not to mention more DPS. . . . thats kind of twisted. EDIT: But again - Juggs are no slouch - they do have more group utility. . . . but still. If u mean taunts and stuff, these are common among all classes that can tank. Additionaly, marauders have healing debuff and group buffs (group dmg increase, group speed increase, etc..) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unicornfive Posted May 2, 2012 Share Posted May 2, 2012 You make it sound like they hundreds of CD's Saberward is 3min (juggs get this too) UR is 1.5 min (still killable and stopped) FC is 45 secs Cloak of Pain is a 20% DR for 30 secs and down 30 secs (if you keep on it) If you want to count Predation a group buff needs 30 fury and not spamable Basically, 4 defensive CD's, and used right difficult to circumvent, but easy still to catch on CD's... Only mara/sents have 4 defense right... Ok now lets count how many stuns, Knockback, Push or Pull or CC abilities they have... NONE... I cant tell you that I have been force lifted or whirlwind or stunned or knockbacked and rooted and so forth.... SO they have none of that but they have those defenses...sounds like a fair trade off to me... Whats this? : http://www.torhead.com/ability/91opIPj/obfuscate And this? : http://www.torhead.com/ability/ei8yu4T/defensive-roll And i was wondering why my smash crits lower than my force scream on maras.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madeira Posted May 2, 2012 Share Posted May 2, 2012 Ok now lets count how many stuns, Knockback, Push or Pull or CC abilities they have... NONE... I cant tell you that I have been force lifted or whirlwind or stunned or knockbacked and rooted and so forth.... SO they have none of that but they have those defenses...sounds like a fair trade off to me... Technically Marauders still get Force Choke and Intimidating Roar. And again - all I'm asking for in terms of balancing the class is increasing the cooldown of two of their Defensive abilities. You know as well as I do that many bad, bad, BAD Marauders wait on Force Camo and Undying Rage to get off cooldown before starting their offensive and more often than not they get away with it. Make those two abilities slightly less accessible and the class would still be devastating. . . . just not corny devastating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blloodbane Posted May 2, 2012 Share Posted May 2, 2012 (edited) If u mean taunts and stuff, these are common among all classes that can tank. Additionaly, marauders have healing debuff and group buffs (group dmg increase, group speed increase, etc..) The healing debuf is only 20% and single target and only applies with deadly throw... the group damage buff Bloodthirst not only does it requires a 30 stack of fury build up, its on a 3 minute cool down and grants a 15% damage bost for 15 seconds, and predation is a 10% defense boost for range/melee 50% speed boost for 10 secs and needs 30 stack of fury to invoke, there is no ETC... thats both of them... Edited May 2, 2012 by Blloodbane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unicornfive Posted May 2, 2012 Share Posted May 2, 2012 The healing debuf is only 20% and single target and only applies with deadly throw... the group damage buff Bloodthirst not only does it require a fury build up, its on a 3 minute cool down and grants a 15% damage bost for 15 seconds, and predation is a 10% defense boost for range/melee 50% boost for 10 secs and needs 30 stack of fury to invoke, there is no ETC... thats both of them... If they are nothing, remove them for maras and give them to juggs...No big deal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiveandDieinLA Posted May 2, 2012 Share Posted May 2, 2012 The healing debuf is only 20% and single target and only applies with deadly throw... the group damage buff Bloodthirst not only does it requires a 30 stack of fury build up, its on a 3 minute cool down and grants a 15% damage bost for 15 seconds, and predation is a 10% defense boost for range/melee 50% speed boost for 10 secs and needs 30 stack of fury to invoke, there is no ETC... thats both of them... Bloodthrist is on a 5 min cd actually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blloodbane Posted May 2, 2012 Share Posted May 2, 2012 Technically Marauders still get Force Choke and Intimidating Roar. And again - all I'm asking for in terms of balancing the class is increasing the cooldown of two of their Defensive abilities. You know as well as I do that many bad, bad, BAD Marauders wait on Force Camo and Undying Rage to get off cooldown before starting their offensive and more often than not they get away with it. Make those two abilities slightly less accessible and the class would still be devastating. . . . just not corny devastating. Well they cant move with force choke as its channeled, Juggs can and roar is not a true one, it breaks on damage, i use it more as a interupt than a CC... as Carnage I dont get the 6 second CD on disrupt.... Some of the changes would hurt the carnage tree, not sure about rage or anhilation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blloodbane Posted May 2, 2012 Share Posted May 2, 2012 Bloodthrist is on a 5 min cd actually. OH sorry wasnt on my toon... LOL your right though... I couldnt remember exactly I just remember it was several minutes... so basically you might get 2 uses in a WZ out of it at best... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blloodbane Posted May 2, 2012 Share Posted May 2, 2012 (edited) If they are nothing, remove them for maras and give them to juggs...No big deal Just roll a mara, since they are the cool kids and have all the toys you want. Edited May 2, 2012 by Blloodbane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiveandDieinLA Posted May 2, 2012 Share Posted May 2, 2012 Jugg specced defensive Cds stuns and procs Immortal tree: Backhand Invincible Sonic barrier Blade barricade Guard stance Force Grip Vengeance tree Unstoppable Deafening defense This is on top of Saber Ward WITH blade turning, which is better than the marauder version, endure pain, and enraged defense, and lets not forget, better passive mitigation from heavy armor. Combine that with force push, aoe taunt, aoe snare, and the ability to guard a teammate. Yet it is marauders that have "all the best denfensive abilities in the game" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odahviin Posted May 3, 2012 Share Posted May 3, 2012 All this qq about marauders and sents and I really just don't understand it. I never lose to a marauder on my gunslinger unless they start hitting me when my health is under 50%( with them at full health). I mean it's so simple taking them out. CC snare knockback are literally the direct counter to them. It's not that hard. I play a sent( been playing before 1.2) but personally I think the gunslinger is more viable in a pvp match any day of the week. There is nothing like leg shotting a guy about to score in huttball then using dirty kick. He/she is dead in 7 seconds and my team has the ball. What will a sent do? Leap for a 2 sec stun then force choke for little damage? Yea I think anybody can see which is better. Well yes sir, you are the natural counter to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kontraz Posted May 3, 2012 Share Posted May 3, 2012 Yeah Sorc is strong against sniper., sniper strong against marauder, marauder strong against sorc. and merc just gets killed a lot ^_^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
masterbason Posted May 3, 2012 Share Posted May 3, 2012 Marauder = Play with WIN BUTTON! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arkzehhh Posted May 3, 2012 Share Posted May 3, 2012 Why suddently OP felt the urge to come at forums and try defend mara/sent with risking nerfs for his class? (snipers/gunslingers) So weird... Translation of real OP's post : Dear Bioware, Plz dont nerf my mara/sent plz plz. I keep losing by snipers/gunslingers and i feel mara is underpowered. But if i post it like that, ppl here will tell me L2P NOOB. So i present myself as a sniper, that kills easily maras, in order to prevent my real class (mara) for getting nerfed. Especialy if ppl believe my lies about killing maras with me at 50% health, they ll probably think about nerfing snipers, he he he. well done sir! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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