Undying Rage: The Final Word

[whatthefett]

Undying Rage: The Final Word

 

With all the talk of overpowered marauders on the forums there has been a lot said about one ability in particular: Undying Rage. So I decided to create a post explaining exactly what it is, how it's used, why it isn't "god mode", and why it is there by design and, in fact, the Annihilation Marauder requires it to be in the toolbox under certain circumstances in order to be effective dps.

 

First and foremost, this is specifically from the perspective of an Annihilation Marauder. I don't have time to play every class and build a handful of 50s. I barely have time to get good with this one class, so this pertains to it.

 

Which leads me to a second housekeeping item which is how many people lump in two classes of Sith Warrior, at least five variations of spec, and call them all "marauder". "I got two-shot by an invincible marauder!". No, you didn't. It kills me how people don't even know what a marauder is or how different the many variations are before they cry on the forums.

 

Here is how the Sith Warrior class breaks down:

 

Warrior

Juggernaut

Vengeance, Immortal, Rage (shared)

 

Marauder

Annihilation, Carnage, Rage (shared)

 

The warrior has a variation of Undying Rage with slightly different results. Usually when people are getting blown up, they are incorrectly referring to a warrior with Undying Rage and even then they probably got capped by a different class altogether, because many classes have a similar power, whether it's a heal, invincibility, or defensive maneuver. This type of power is not new or unique to the Warrior class or any other.

 

Now for a definition:

Undying Rage sacrifices 50% health = 99% damage reduction for 5 sec, 1.5min CD. We can also get a talent to reduce the cool down on this and for pvp should.

 

What?!? You are near invincible for 5 seconds! Ohhhhhhhh....nerf bat incoming...ohhhh...how could Bioware screw this up and let one advanced class walk around invincible in warzones all the time....ohhhhhh my.

 

Ok back to reality. Undying Rage, due it's it's nature, would never be used at the beginning of a fight. Why would a class that has virtually no healing ability cut its health in half in a pvp fight? So then, it is only used as a last stand at the end of a fight. Usually between 20-15% remaining health. It can do two things: be a last "Nananana I'm invincible for 5 seconds before you kill me", or, "Now I'm going to show you what a bad mistake you just made."

 

Regarding the latter:

Annihilation Marauders are damage over time (dot) melee damage. Why this is important is that the majority of our damage does not kick in until the second half of the fight. By that time our health is down to 20% while the opponent can have as much as 50%. That means we need a those extra few seconds and remaining health for those dots to kick in. We are back loaded melee dps.

 

So by activating Undying Rage and continuing to pick away at the opposition, one on one, the Marauder can often pull of a win with a few percent of health remaining. But the key here is that, win or lose, it is down to the last execution of force powers in conjunction with Undying Rage. It is the same difference if Marauders didn't have Undying Rage, but force powers were buffed to compensate the "over time" imbalance, i.e., making us more front loaded. In fact, we have to execute a whole new series of force powers to compensate for what everyone else gets in their five force power set rotation.

 

This complexity is what gives the Marauder it's fun aspect as well as interest. It takes timing, situational awareness, and execution to pull off that win. I am not aware of any other class rotation that demands so much for so little. Annihilation Marauders in particular are not front loaded dps and have to survive longer than any other class to succeed.

 

In fact, when people complain on the forums about Anni Maras that chewed them up I know it isn't right because if you died from an Anni, he was likely nowhere around- the dots would have gotten you later.

 

So to sum up:

There is too much confusion and inaccuracy in the reporting of Marauder attacks.

Undying Rage is a last stand for Annihilation Marauders.

It only lasts five seconds.

It is paramount for a back loaded dot melee dps to succeed in pvp.

It is more complex to assess and use this ability, and subsequent abilities, to succeed compared to other classes.

 

Finally, don't post to this thread with "nerf maras", or "I still got two shot" (you didn't), or a list of all the other force powers in our arsenal, or provide some ridiculous claim without specifics of the scenario. Because here is another fact. If I saw a class with guard, invincibility, 60% instant heals being executed, etc. I know enough to wait it out and attack another weaker opponent in the interim. Yet everyone I kill this way keeps hitting me wondering what is going on and I laugh. The buff is right there above my health bar and people don't even know what it is, which is surprising when there are so many tears.

 

And really last, warzones are team based, so guess what? Anyone can get a heal, use a med pac, use a stim, get help, stun (except maras), and has a similar power specific to their class that someone can complain about. These are universal and irrelevant to the execution of the classes abilities. You have to be able to use them successfully and situationally. That an Annihilation Marauder can accomplish this is a great feat and a wonderful challenge.

 

But we don't always get the kill, just against you, and just with Undying Rage.

Edited May 2, 2012 by whatthefett

[unixbomber]

I had a sent use guarded by the force on me at full morale yesterday. It made me laugh.

[anticept]

Undying Rage: The Final Word

But we do always get the kill, just against you, and just with Undying Rage.

 

to sum it up mate ... you can try to rationalize UR but it´s too good atm with generous cd.

 

Being serious for a bit so as being a dot machine annimara needs UR but say pyromerc doesn´t or more similar lethality ops (same armor most skills need to be used within 10meters)

[LiQuiDMDH]

People get mad because they see you at like 12% and they're still at 50%, only to have you rage and kill them, then walk away with like 3% left. Once your health got that low, they've mentally perceived the victory, and you're able to deny them that with a "cheap" invincibility move.

 

Even though I think maras are in a great place right now, I admit I sometimes grit my teeth in anger when one of you beats me with a tiny sliver of health left. =)

[Girltank]

to sum it up mate ... you can try to rationalize UR but it´s too good atm with generous cd.

 

Being serious for a bit so as being a dot machine annimara needs UR but say pyromerc doesn´t or more similar lethality ops (same armor most skills need to be used within 10meters)

 

no need to rationalize things for balance right? Don't even consider that it may be a necessary tool to balance the fact that mara/sents don't have a real 4 second stun, a push or more than one 30 meter attack???

Edited May 2, 2012 by Girltank

[Astarica]

The only complaint I have on Undying Rage is that it seems many Marauder cooldown share the same 'face glows red' graphics so it's hard to tell whther they actually have UR up or not without hitting them. It needs to have an unmistakeable animation like say Energy Shield so you know when it's on/off. Energy Shield does this and it's not nearly as powerful as UR.

[TheVoidStalker]

Why this is important is that the majority of our damage does not kick in until the second half of the fight. By that time our health is down to 20% while the opponent can have as much as 50%.

 

What are you fighting where this is actually true?

[XenonParsec]

The real final word on UR from the mara/sent community:

 

"don't nerf me bro!"

 

They did it to sorcs, we said all the same things. It didn't matter.

 

Remember: good gamers adapt.

[anticept]

no need to rationalize things for balance right? Don't even consider the that it may be a necessary tool to balance the fact that mara/sents don't have a real 4 second stun, a push or more than one 30 meter attack???

 

What they do have is only group buffs in game inc. speedbuff , good selfhealing through damage , good damage output and best defensive cds in game inc. vanish , choke is a stun in it´s self and it deals damage unlike other stuns and you have mass crybabyrollingonthefloor mez ... you want to dualwield blasters ducttaped on your sabers now too come on maybe they should give you sorcbubble and grapple from sins/pts really ****.

[Serrowherrow]

The real final word on UR from the mara/sent community:

 

"don't nerf me bro!"

 

They did it to sorcs, we said all the same things. It didn't matter.

 

Remember: good gamers adapt.

 

Pretty much. Most of the sorcs nerfs were unjustified, but bioware's qq meter hit a critical breaking point on them.

 

I'll still play my marauder even if they nerf it into the dirt, and I'll *********** love the taste of the gravel and earthworms right after.

[zaknaphein]

some notes on ur behalf:

 

1) Other classes using dots don't have the def cds of a marauder so that doesn't justify your points for UR, but the other def cds they have.

 

2) UR is a man's last choice and usually used at or below 5% of life. Yet the person can be fully healed again back to top taking only 1% of total dmg. Same goes with camo.

 

3) This isn't a 1on1 game. Look at the overall perspective.

[unixbomber]

to sum it up mate ... you can try to rationalize UR but it´s too good atm with generous cd

 

I was playing my operative yesterday and today and enjoyed making many marauder and sentinels waste this skill that's "too good" - GCD's are what, 1.5 seconds? It lasts 5 seconds? Grats on your two extra attacks oh wait yea you're stunlocked. Sucks to be you.

[therouterninja]

Pop guarded by the force, hit medpac, activate zen.. +55% hp in one go? Ok...ignoring the medpac, you're still going to be at say ~40-50%hp at the end of this. I consistently 1v2, and sometimes 1v3 against bads.

 

I'm not one to advocate nerfs, but I think marauders could use an adjusting, as well as some of the other classes. I have no reason to play any other class other than my shadow at this point

[Chockalot]

keep your undying rage, but base the length of time it procs for on the amount of health points it consumes. If you use it at 30% health to go down to 15% health, it should not last very long at all because your "sacrifice" to the dark side of the force is rather meager. This being said, if a player wants to pop it at 100% health to absorb a high front end burst battle, the time it lasts should be longer than 5 secs. Have the BW "metrics" solve the issue.

 

Also, if it truly is a last stand style of ability, have it cost a set number of hit points. If you want it to last 5 secs, make it cost 6k hit points. You will stay alive for the 5 secs, but may fall over dead at the end if you are below 6k when you activate it. No Nerf needed for the ability, just scale the effectiveness to the amount of sacrifice in health

[Girltank]

What they do have is only group buffs in game inc. speedbuff , good selfhealing through damage , good damage output and best defensive cds in game inc. vanish , choke is a stun in it´s self and it deals damage unlike other stuns and you have mass crybabyrollingonthefloor mez ... you want to dualwield blasters ducttaped on your sabers now too come on maybe they should give you sorcbubble and grapple from sins/pts really ****.

 

1) those group buffs use centering stacks vital to decent dps on a mara/sent.

 

2) the group buffs such as trans are only in absence of self buffs like say force speed.

 

3) undying rage is part of the reason they have the best defensive CDs in the game and the fact they only have 1 30 M attack is the most influential reason for them. (they spend the most time not attacking out of any build in game).

 

4) a real stun doesn't require you to stand stationary for the duration, lasts more than 3 seconds and allows you to beat on your opponent ([producing significant damage) while it's in effect.

 

5) not the only AC with an instant aoe mez.

[Xerain]

no need to rationalize things for balance right? Don't even consider that it may be a necessary tool to balance the fact that mara/sents don't have a real 4 second stun, a push or more than one 30 meter attack???

 

Does charge count as a 30m attack? It's labeled as Melee in the abilities sheet.

[SajPl]

to sum it up mate ... you can try to rationalize UR but it´s too good atm with generous cd.

 

Being serious for a bit so as being a dot machine annimara needs UR but say pyromerc doesn´t or more similar lethality ops (same armor most skills need to be used within 10meters)

 

add to that that the 2 classes you mentioned also dont have an "execute type of ability" like Dispatch for sentinels. Because why would you need to work a target down form 100 to 0 if you can work them down from 100 to 30 and then press the "i win" button...

Edited May 2, 2012 by SajPl

[Xerain]

Pop guarded by the force, hit medpac, activate zen.. +55% hp in one go? Ok...ignoring the medpac, you're still going to be at say ~40-50%hp at the end of this. I consistently 1v2, and sometimes 1v3 against bads.

 

I'm not one to advocate nerfs, but I think marauders could use an adjusting, as well as some of the other classes. I have no reason to play any other class other than my shadow at this point

 

Bleed/Burn crits heal for 2% hp with a 30% trauma debuff so it's 1.4% hp when you pop zen you get an additional 1% heal or .7% with trauma debuff, so in totally you get 2.1% per tick when zen/berserk is active at a total of 6 ticks it's only 12.6% heal. So you're never popping GBTF/UD and hitting 40-50% hp at the end of those 5 seconds. You probably will be close to there with a warzone medpack and berzerk/zen pop but stop spreading false information and learn to math.

[Girltank]

Does charge count as a 30m attack? It's labeled as Melee in the abilities sheet.

 

I count it as such. It' being the only attack available to use at 30 Meters though you make a good point.

[Xerain]

add to that that the 2 classes you mentioned also dont have an "execute type of ability" like Dispatch for sentinels. Because why would you need to work a target down form 100 to 0 if you can work them down from 100 to 30 and then press the "i win" button...

 

I'm sitting at 17k hp right now... 1700 hp = 10%. 1700x3 = 5100... You really think execute is always hitting for that much if not more? Seriously lol.

[Xerain]

I was playing my operative yesterday and today and enjoyed making many marauder and sentinels waste this skill that's "too good" - GCD's are what, 1.5 seconds? It lasts 5 seconds? Grats on your two extra attacks oh wait yea you're stunlocked. Sucks to be you.

 

Crap someone that knows how to play! NERF THEM!

[HanzBlix]

5 seconds is an eternity in a pvp fight, especially when you do boss damage and have an awesome gap closer.

[goulet]

the problem is both with the ability specifically as well as its conjuncture with other abilities that make it problematic.

 

UR specifically

-the cooldown. 1.5 minutes by default, lower with talents. 5 seconds of not fearing death by itself wouldnt be so bad if you couldn't use it as frequently.

-penalty for use. Sacrificing your health doesn't seem substantial enough (has a lot to do with other abilities). If it had some incurred penalty, like a reduction to healing received it would be another story.

 

WIth other abilities

-careful planning gets you a "get out of jail free card." The combined effect of the reduction in damage, followed by the in combat stealth creates far to many situations where the marauder can be healed to full, or simply escape as they've stacked enough buffs to get the sprint by the point they use it.

-by the time this ability is used in the vast majority of situations your opponents health is roughly equal to your own, and marauders arent exactly lacking on dps.

[LarryRow]

The only complaint I have on Undying Rage is that it seems many Marauder cooldown share the same 'face glows red' graphics so it's hard to tell whther they actually have UR up or not without hitting them. It needs to have an unmistakeable animation like say Energy Shield so you know when it's on/off. Energy Shield does this and it's not nearly as powerful as UR.

 

^This. 1000 times THIS!

[Girltank]

add to that that the 2 classes you mentioned also dont have an "execute type of ability" like Dispatch for sentinels. Because why would you need to work a target down form 100 to 0 if you can work them down from 100 to 30 and then press the "i win" button...

 

dispatch hardly ever kills a target at 30 %. it rarely finishes them at 15%.

 

I'm pretty sure other classes have attacks that deal similar damage without the 30% hp requirement.