Someone explain the LFG tool hate?

[Goretzu]

The only games that ever had any type of community were those that forced it upon their playerbase. Once that forcing was removed, the true desire for community was exposed: there was no desire.

 

 

 

You're right after a fashion (although it's not so much forced, so much as convinance has made it too much effort).

 

But surely (to find a RL metaphor) it's still better to go down the pub, than it is to sit alone in your house with alcohol and facebook?

[RachelAnne]

It doesn't. All it boils down to is an ego trip by the person going out of their way to call everyone bad. It's usually by someone so enamored with themselves and their "pro gameplay" that they immediately consider everyone who is not them bad. They only want to surround themselves with players they deem "worthy", and that is hard to do when you are grouping with others from different servers.

 

They want to control who they play with, and who they are exposed to. The very success of an x-server tool (and as WoW has shown, it is successful) removes that control for them because everyone is using it, instead of begging these people to join their leet teams.

 

No offence, but this is totally wrong and does not show the reality.

 

The LFG tool does support players who feel "better", "smarter" and it gives them the power to kick everyone out of the groups, that they dont like. Players that did queue for 30min are removed infront of the final boss, just like that - getting nothing in the end.

 

Thats a fact and it happens every day at wow. What no 20k dps, well bye bye *kick* What you are new and dont know the dungeon, well bye bye *kick* etc.

 

Wow is a torture for casuals and new players that try to use the LFG tool - when I came back to wotlk I had a horrible time, as I was low equipped and I have seen it very often at cata too, that after 1 month people did demand things of my group members that were just unreal and only doable if you did play since release and had raiding gear..

 

Lots of my friends were removed from groups, just because there was 1 wipe, just because they did not have sockets full of high end gems or their new weapon high end enchanted.

 

You see that you keep defending those that you dislike, by supporting the LFG.

 

As I said, only elitist´s support an LFG tool -because there they have the control and always get new players feeded to them. They can be the biggest ..... and always get players for their groups, its more than obvious There is no reason why a casual would support it - as they do suffer every day there.

Edited May 4, 2012 by RachelAnne

[PhantomMalice]

Exactly why the general attitude goes down the drain. Players become expendable.

 

heh, yup. Say it loud and proud! This is exactly the attitude xserver has bred and why it should only ever be implemented as a very last, nothing else has worked, resort.

 

"We're not here to play together ... youre all just drones put in place for me to get gear as efficiently and quickly as possible."

 

Thank you!

 

P.S Youre not forced to group up here at all (which to a degree is another problem with grouping but w/e)

 

You know, these are some interesting points, but again, there are plenty of counter arguments against such points. First, let me address the mentality about how players became "expandable". In a way, this can also be argued as a good thing. Why? Imagine this:

 

One of the skilled and welled geared Tank on your server who just also happens to be the world's most intolerable SOB you will encounter. But the catch is he alone can make or break the team; he knows it, you know it, everyone knows about it. He harps on and on about how great he is and just how much POS you are. Since he knows he is not easily replaceable, you will either have to put up with it or forfeit the run.

 

In LFG model, the group can just give him the boot and get a replacement quickly, whereas our current model will only reinforce his bloated ego. Now about the players being means to the end. Won't you argue that the current raiding guilds in game can also be seen as such? There are plenty of players who join a guild, logs on at time X to join an OPS, logs off at time Y when the OPS ends and disappears forever once he/she/it became decked out with top-end gear.

 

Again, the problems with communities don't lie in a FEATURE. They lie in the CONSUMERS who use them. Just like guns by themselves don't kill people, it is the people who choose to use them kill other people.

[Jaxarale]

Yes, that happens here (the xserver LFD virus has spread afterall) ... but MUCH less frequently.

 

lolololol... so x-server LFD causes all this EVILNESS and its spread here to Swtor YET there is no xserver LFD in this game..............

WOW that is amazing that the cause of jerkiness is the Xserver LFD and its happening in this game but there is no LFD...

 

Kinda shot your load on that one?? You just destroyed your entire argument with that one sentence... and it didn't take anyone but you to do destroy your own argument.

Edited May 4, 2012 by Jaxarale

[ferroz]

heh, yup. Say it loud and proud! This is exactly the attitude xserver has bred and why it should only ever be implemented as a very last, nothing else has worked, resort.

No, it's not created by xserver; it's the result of pugging in general. The same attitude was just as common in pugs in EQ ~a decade ago (say, during the PoP and ldon expansions).

[Mrpoodles]

Server only LFG all for it.

 

 

the jerk/troll/elite cool guy/ LFG that is cross server no.

 

i like how server only pvp is and it promotes rival guilds and pvp to happen.

Edited May 4, 2012 by Mrpoodles

[Jaxarale]

the jerk/troll/elite cool guy/ LFG that is cross server no.

 

Its not the tool, its the tools...

Wow that was kinda good!

 

i like how server only pvp is and it promotes rival guilds and pvp to happen.

 

The server only queues that are moving to x-server queues in 1.3?

[ferroz]

Just the other day I was pugging HM D7 ... Bulwark kicked our *** about 8 times while we tried different strategies using the others strengths and weaknesses to finally bring him down. Prime example of what used to, but doesnt happen in WoW now. I dare you to claim it does. Go ahead I need a good laugh. Say an LFD group wouldnt have gone through 5 other DPS'ers, all the while cursing at each other before the run was over (assuming the entire group doesnt ragequit after the first wipe). Here, people leave mostly because of time contraints, broken gear, etc. WoW? Any minor inconvenience sets people off.

No, the same thing happens in an lfd group ... the tank kept dying on ozruk (partially by not dodging, and partially by dispelling the shield before the healer could self dot). Likewise, several fails on Asaad because the healer hadn't spec'd into being able to dispell magic and people couldn't time the jumps to avoid static cling. Same for Baron Ashbury (variety of fails, some related to interrupts, some related to not enough dps at the end burn phase, etc). Same for Ripsnarl, 2 dps with bad burst dps, and an undergeared healer). If I sat down and took more than a minute to think about it, I could come up with dozens of examples where pug groups in lfd stayed and worked through the issues and learned the fights.

 

Personally I didn't find Bulwark to be rocket science; for the most part, you just hit it like you mean it...

[DarthTHC]

I dont think he is exaggerating actually. They may not all be runs filled with "rude ninja bads" (though IMO that frequency definitely goes up) but almost every single run turns into a zero tolerance go-go-go! dungeon run where communication is non-existent.

 

Go ahead ... make a simple common mistake in a WoW LFD group and see if you can make it back into the instance before youre kicked. Say what you want about "oh but it happens in TOR now" it is WAY less frequent, more fun, and less stressful here. Just the other day I was pugging HM D7 ... Bulwark kicked our *** about 8 times while we tried different strategies using the others strengths and weaknesses to finally bring him down. Prime example of what used to, but doesnt happen in WoW now. I dare you to claim it does. Go ahead I need a good laugh. Say an LFD group wouldnt have gone through 5 other DPS'ers, all the while cursing at each other before the run was over (assuming the entire group doesnt ragequit after the first wipe). Here, people leave mostly because of time contraints, broken gear, etc. WoW? Any minor inconvenience sets people off.

 

That to us is a bad run and a bad grouping environment. Just because its not always a ninja, or some tool yelling and cursing at everyone doesnt mean its not a bad experience, or that theyre even remotely as enjoyable as they are here or other games without xserver LFD. You may not care about that kind of environment an Xserver LFG tool breeds, we do. You, coming from LFD WoW, may not care about the other people you group with, using them as nothing but nameless tools, a means to get your gear .... we do. We like to join groups, say hi, discuss strats, mark targets and not have to worry much about some LFD bred impatient, intolerant tool cursing or ragequitting because the run isnt going perfectly smooth. Yes, that happens here (the xserver LFD virus has spread afterall) ... but MUCH less frequently. Players value their groups here much more and are willing to have some degree of tolerance for others making the community (*gasp* he said the C word! ) all the better.

 

Then again, an encounter like Bulwark doesnt really happen much in WoW anymore does it? Wrath was all about "tank'n'spank go-go-go pew pew" and when they brought back a tiny amount of difficulty in Cata ... they lose 2 million players and nerf encounters every other month (... say that didnt happen either).

 

The answer to this all boils down to don't use the tool.

 

If you want to be challenged and beat your bloody foreheads against a brick wall 20 times, find a group the "old fashioned" way and explain to them what's going to happen going in.

 

You will have that option.

 

Right now, there are a lot of players on a whole lot of servers that do not have that option or any other for grouping.

[DarthTHC]

No offence, but this is totally wrong and does not show the reality.

 

The LFG tool does support players who feel "better", "smarter" and it gives them the power to kick everyone out of the groups, that they dont like. Players that did queue for 30min are removed infront of the final boss, just like that - getting nothing in the end.

 

In an LFG tool, this requires a vote-kick. In the current SWTOR tool, this requires the group leader to be a douchebag. Which model offers most players better protection?

 

Thats a fact and it happens every day at wow. What no 20k dps, well bye bye *kick* What you are new and dont know the dungeon, well bye bye *kick* etc.

 

Wow is a torture for casuals and new players that try to use the LFG tool - when I came back to wotlk I had a horrible time, as I was low equipped and I have seen it very often at cata too, that after 1 month people did demand things of my group members that were just unreal and only doable if you did play since release and had raiding gear..

 

I was a casual player in WoW. I played a healing priest. I never felt that LFG groups were torture. Never.

 

There is a difference between "casual" and "bad". Bad players should work to become adequate, but as long as they're bad, yes, groups might be a bit rough on them. But isn't that a form of "accountability" that lots of the anti-crowd says doesn't exist with X-LFG?

 

Lots of my friends were removed from groups, just because there was 1 wipe, just because they did not have sockets full of high end gems or their new weapon high end enchanted.

 

Players who queue for content for which they are unprepared should be removed from groups. This is what "accountability" means. If someone tried to get into a HM FP group in this game decked out in level 40's greens with gear slots empty, I'd tell them to come back when they're ready too.

 

You see that you keep defending those that you dislike, by supporting the LFG.

 

As I said, only elitist´s support an LFG tool -because there they have the control and always get new players feeded to them. They can be the biggest ..... and always get players for their groups, its more than obvious There is no reason why a casual would support it - as they do suffer every day there.

 

This is completely backwards and just dead wrong. I strongly support an LFG tool and I am in no way elitist. And I'm a casual player. I will absolutely work to help players who are underperforming become better. Of course, if those players won't take the advice or continue to act like fools, yes, I'm right there booting them. That's not elitist. That's a combination of helpful and practical.

Edited May 4, 2012 by DarthTHC

[Jederix]

No offence, but this is totally wrong and does not show the reality.

 

The LFG tool does support players who feel "better", "smarter" and it gives them the power to kick everyone out of the groups, that they dont like. Players that did queue for 30min are removed infront of the final boss, just like that - getting nothing in the end.

 

Thats a fact and it happens every day at wow. What no 20k dps, well bye bye *kick* What you are new and dont know the dungeon, well bye bye *kick* etc.

 

Wow is a torture for casuals and new players that try to use the LFG tool - when I came back to wotlk I had a horrible time, as I was low equipped and I have seen it very often at cata too, that after 1 month people did demand things of my group members that were just unreal and only doable if you did play since release and had raiding gear..

 

Lots of my friends were removed from groups, just because there was 1 wipe, just because they did not have sockets full of high end gems or their new weapon high end enchanted.

 

You see that you keep defending those that you dislike, by supporting the LFG.

 

As I said, only elitist´s support an LFG tool -because there they have the control and always get new players feeded to them. They can be the biggest ..... and always get players for their groups, its more than obvious There is no reason why a casual would support it - as they do suffer every day there.

 

I generalized incorrectly, I think. I was more referring to those LFG opponents who can't state 2 sentences on why they dislike the tool without calling people or taking about people who are "bads". The only ones who obssess about these people are the ones with a perceived notion of how much better they are than the lowly playerbase around them and want to deny the lowly denizens that share their gaming world any chance to experience portions of the game.

 

I do not, by any means, consider all opponents of the tool to be this way. Sorry if I was unclear.

 

As to the points you made, I hadn't really thought much about the kicking because of low DPS and whatnot, probably because I've never really had that happen to me that I can recall. It just goes to show that douchebags will be douchebags no matter what. Still, the successes I had with the tool far outweight anything negative I've ever experienced. That is why I am a proponent of the tool.

 

LFG Tool or not, there are always going to be douchebags.

[Phyreblade]

I love your argument here. And I agree with it.

 

The answer seems to be... if you don't like it, don't do it. If I like it, I'd like to do it. And vice-versa.

 

The problem comes in when those who don't like it (feelings) want to prevent those who do like it from doing it.

 

I don't like drinking soda or eating fast food, so I don't do it. But I'd never think to try to block a McDonald's from opening up shop down the street. If other people (who aren't my children) want to ingest that poison, that's their choice and it's not my place to try to prevent it.

 

I'm absolutely in favor of you not liking the tool. If that's the case, don't use it. But please don't try to stop others from using it, especially if it makes or breaks the gaming experience for them. It's tragic to lose good players because quality of life features don't exist or are poorly implemented.

 

I can use that same argument, in turn. If I don't like it but you do, why should I have to tolerate all the requisite effects that tool has on the game I'm playing? It would be foolish to deny there ARE very real and often negative effects from such a tool being utilized. That you yourself don't MIND those effects or otherwise do not FEEL they're so big a deal, doesn't mean I will feel the same way, right?

 

See, it always comes down to a question of feelings, making this not so much a debate of facts but one of subjective rationale. It's different people discussing how they FEEL and there's no real way to win or lose such an argument, because feelings don't have a truly quantifiable element worthy of a logical debate.

 

And in the end, it's just a purely silly discussion to have AGAIN and AGAIN when the company has already said they will implement a LFG tool in the next patch. What the heck is there to debate at this point?

[DarthTHC]

I can use that same argument, in turn. If I don't like it but you do, why should I have to tolerate all the requisite effects that tool has on the game I'm playing? It would be foolish to deny there ARE very real and often negative effects from such a tool being utilized. That you yourself don't MIND those effects or otherwise do not FEEL they're so big a deal, doesn't mean I will feel the same way, right?

 

See, it always comes down to a question of feelings, making this not so much a debate of facts but one of subjective rationale. It's different people discussing how they FEEL and there's no real way to win or lose such an argument, because feelings don't have a truly quantifiable element worthy of a logical debate.

 

And in the end, it's just a purely silly discussion to have AGAIN and AGAIN when the company has already said they will implement a LFG tool in the next patch. What the heck is there to debate at this point?

 

All well and good except for the fact that you can show no negative effects of the tool upon your gameplay if you choose to not use the tool. If you think you can, I'd love to see specific examples including cause and effect.

[MasterKayote]

You know, these are some interesting points, but again, there are plenty of counter arguments against such points. First, let me address the mentality about how players became "expandable". In a way, this can also be argued as a good thing. Why? Imagine this:

 

One of the skilled and welled geared Tank on your server who just also happens to be the world's most intolerable SOB you will encounter. But the catch is he alone can make or break the team; he knows it, you know it, everyone knows about it. He harps on and on about how great he is and just how much POS you are. Since he knows he is not easily replaceable, you will either have to put up with it or forfeit the run.

 

In LFG model, the group can just give him the boot and get a replacement quickly, whereas our current model will only reinforce his bloated ego. Now about the players being means to the end. Won't you argue that the current raiding guilds in game can also be seen as such? There are plenty of players who join a guild, logs on at time X to join an OPS, logs off at time Y when the OPS ends and disappears forever once he/she/it became decked out with top-end gear.

 

That was never the case for me before XLFG. If someone was a dbag they'd get booted, or the team would drop and find another one. The 'tank' would get ignored and be down another 4 players that wont group with him again. XLFG? Doesnt matter, he gets another insta-queue In fact, when I left a few months after Cata, Tanks are more catered to, than they ever were before ... not only by the groups but by the devs themselves. "Do what I say because you're all trash, otherwise I can get another instant group if you dont like it." Tanks were the worst offenders. So in fact, xserver LFG ended up empowering the utility classes, mainly the tanks, even more than before. At least before LFG, tanks had consequences for behaving as such nor would they have another group waiting for him with open arms. Yeah, it may take the 4 others a while to find another tank, but so would it be for the dbag Tank. Hence the chances of even getting a tank like that (or any player for that matter) was lower.

 

Again, the problems with communities don't lie in a FEATURE. They lie in the CONSUMERS who use them. Just like guns by themselves don't kill people, it is the people who choose to use them kill other people.

 

Consumers are the ultimate ones at fault, thats true enough, but you cant deny that "features" can greatly influence how the society behaves in general. Guns dont kill people, youre right, but you can bet anything that without the laws, restrictions, and consequences we have in place right now, there'd be A LOT more gun related "incidents" happening all over the place. Same holds true for the LFG tool, remove the consequences of behaving like your previously mentioned tank, and you end up getting a lot more XLFG related "incidents."

 

No, it's not created by xserver; it's the result of pugging in general. The same attitude was just as common in pugs in EQ ~a decade ago (say, during the PoP and ldon expansions).

 

No, it wasnt. That attitude is hardly even present in this game now, and it was hardly present in pre-XLFG WoW. When the group wiped, they come back and tried again at least a few times. In WoW? Well, is your account active? Have you tried making that "simple common mistake" yet? Let me know how it goes if you do.

Edited May 4, 2012 by MasterKayote

[DarthTHC]

That was never the case for me before XLFG. If someone was a dbag they'd get booted, or the team would drop and find another one. The 'tank' would get ignored and be down another 4 players that wont group with him again. XLFG? Doesnt matter, he gets another insta-queue In fact, when I left a few months after Cata, Tanks are more catered to, than they ever were before ... not only by the groups but by the devs themselves. "Do what I say because you're all trash, otherwise I can get another instant group if you dont like it." Tanks were the worst offenders. So in fact, xserver LFG ended up empowering the utility classes, mainly the tanks, even more than before. At least before LFG, tanks had consequences for behaving as such nor would they have another group waiting for him with open arms. Yeah, it may take the 4 others a while to find another tank, but so would it be for the dbag Tank. Hence the chances of even getting a tank like that (or any player for that matter) was lower.

 

Consumers are the ultimate ones at fault, thats true enough, but you cant deny that "features" can greatly influence how the society behaves in general. Guns dont kill people, youre right, but you can bet anything that without the laws, restrictions, and consequences we have in place right now, there'd be A LOT more gun related "incidents" happening all over the place. Same holds true for the LFG tool, remove the consequences of behaving like your previously mentioned tank, and you end up getting a lot more XLFG related "incidents."

 

No, it wasnt. That attitude is hardly even present in this game now, and it was hardly present in pre-XLFG WoW. When the group wiped, they come back and tried again at least a few times. In WoW? Well, is your account active? Have you tried making that "simple common mistake" yet? Let me know how it goes if you do.

 

No, they couldn't. If they dropped group they got the same 30 minute timeout everyone got for dropping group. Now you'd have to be pretty serious about forcing the tank into that, like by bouncing out of the dungeon and doing something else until he dropped group, but you could do it. This is an example of a poorly implemented LFG tool though. It's not an example of why a properly implemented LFG tool would be bad.

 

You poor soul! What tragic events in your life gave you this horridly negative view on humanity? Are you aware that in counties in which gun ownership is least restrictive, violent crime including gun use is significantly lower than in counties in which gun ownership is most severely restricted? The vast majority of people are not inherently evil, nor would they choose to wantonly harm others "just because they can".

[Ferthcott]

LOTRO got LFG tool fairly recently, no x-server though. It was complicated by idiotic idea in initial version: tool not only generated queue but also selected dungeon for you on its own. You had few choices in terms of scale/ generic difficulty tiers, but content itself was pretty much random. They even added special "bonus" everyone was getting if dungeon was created with LFG tool and at the same time mutilated rewards from normal runs. Overall - it was something akin to Beta testing on Live servers.

 

Guess what? Nobody cared. People formed a group on their own, tried randomizer, if it didn't work the way they wanted, they started another one manually (losing the bonus and cursing through their teeth).

 

After a while Turbine reduced randomness, although still forces people to select entire pool of dungeons if they wish to retain "bonus". But here's the fun part: LFG was mainly supposed to provide a chance for non-capped players to run some mid-level dungeons, bleeding edge content was already fairly safe. Yet it failed so miserably in those terms it is mostly a subject of jokes. Heck, even jokes are getting stale at this point.

 

Here's why: smaller servers tend to have 100-ish pop in 1-75lv range. I know, right? It's pretty nice compared with many TOR servers. And yet, you can spend hours in your queue, it doesn't matter what class you are or what part of leveling you are going through: getting something below cap is a legendary achievement.

 

Some people cry, other peole insist x-server is not a solution, others threaten it will kill LOTRO and create WoW population in no time. At the same time there is steady decline in below-cap dungeons being run by traditionally formed, even guild-supported on-level groups - but I mean those without capped players facerolling everything for the rest. So yeah, this whole thread gives me very strong deja vu.

 

It is not impossible to get a group, especially near cap. But anything LFG tool was supposed to fix is dead.

 

So I look at this thread and see people convinced same-server LFG will solve all problems. That current LFG tool could solve those problems (LOTR has a copy of that too by the way) if people decided to use it. That server transfers would be a perfect solution, remaining population be damned. Not to mention even Turbine refused to merge servers and they run their buisness on completely different scale. If I see BW merging here I will be genuinely surprised, in a positive way, that they managed to do something beyond lousy PR and debacles that are becoming familiar with DA2/ME3 style.

 

But I wouldn't suggest holding your breath.

Edited May 4, 2012 by Ferthcott

[MasterKayote]

No, the same thing happens in an lfd group ... the tank kept dying on ozruk (partially by not dodging, and partially by dispelling the shield before the healer could self dot). Likewise, several fails on Asaad because the healer hadn't spec'd into being able to dispell magic and people couldn't time the jumps to avoid static cling. Same for Baron Ashbury (variety of fails, some related to interrupts, some related to not enough dps at the end burn phase, etc). Same for Ripsnarl, 2 dps with bad burst dps, and an undergeared healer). If I sat down and took more than a minute to think about it, I could come up with dozens of examples where pug groups in lfd stayed and worked through the issues and learned the fights.

 

Personally I didn't find Bulwark to be rocket science; for the most part, you just hit it like you mean it...

 

lol, right ... ok well, instead of calling all that b/s, since it directly contradicts my own experiences, and go around in circles (yet again). Ill just say its up to Bioware to decide. Because apparently here we have players experiences with XLFG range from black to white.

 

And Bulwark is a little more than just "hit it like you mean it ...", you have to stop DPS occasionally.

 

Im done for the day, see you guys on Monday.

Edited May 4, 2012 by MasterKayote

[ferroz]

I can use that same argument, in turn. If I don't like it but you do, why should I have to tolerate all the requisite effects that tool has on the game I'm playing?

I deny that there are any effects on the game from the tool. Demonstrate that this is true, or stop pretending that it's the case.

 

If you can't show that there are actual effects on the game, that are caused by (not just correlated with) the existence of tool that do indeed affect the people who choose not to use the tool, then this isn't a valid counter argument.

 

lol, right ... ok well, instead of calling all that b/s, since it directly contradicts my own experiences,

How are your experiences relevant? The claim was that it doesn't happen... at all ... to anyone. I'm saying that what you've said is false, because I have had it happen, repeatedly. Your experience doesn't have any relevance, unless you're claiming to have been present in the groups that I had that occur in...

 

And Bulwark is a little more than just "hit it like you mean it ...", you have to stop DPS occasionally.

/shrug ... worked fairly well for us.

 

 

 

That was never the case for me before XLFG. If someone was a dbag they'd get booted, or the team would drop and find another one. The 'tank' would get ignored and be down another 4 players that wont group with him again. XLFG?

in xlfg they get booted or the team would drop and find another one. The 'tank' would get ignored and be down another 4 players.

 

seems exactly the same to me.

 

No, it wasnt.

yes indeed it was ... a huge number of servers in EQ swtiched from nbg as the default looting method in pugs to open rolls during pop (particularity for ornate armor molds/patterns, but also scrolls and runes, and other drops in PoS/BoT/Tactics). There was quite a bit of discussion on that on the old EQ caster's realm forums.

 

The idea that it was "everyone for themselves" has been common in mmo pugs since before WoW was released. I'd say that it started changed in late velious/early luclin in EQ and by the time PoP had released it was pretty much the norm.

 

Let me know how it goes if you do.

I've already said how it goes for me ... you're response is that you didn't believe me. Edited May 4, 2012 by ferroz

[Staavis_SC]

I'll add in my 2 credits here...

 

I rerolled on a new server recently, because my original server was dead as a doornail. The reason I rerolled is because I wanted to be able to run flashpoints when I was level appropriate.

 

Since rerolling, I am Level 41 on my new character.

 

I have run a total of 2 1/4 flashpoints. (2.25 for the engineering minded)

 

They were:

 

The Esseles

Hammer Station

Mandalorian Raiders (up to the first boss)

 

Esseles is easy, and finding a group is not difficult. You can easily find a group for this, any time, any day.

 

Hammer Station was a bit harder. I happened to get lucky the day I was on Taris and someone was asking for a group. Otherwise, I would have had to sit on Carrick Station, doing nothing, and spamming the General chat trying to put together a group.

 

For Mando Raiders, I got into a group, 1 level below the recommended for the Flashpoint. I was kicked out at the first boss because the tank said I was a scrub and didn't do enough damage to be worthwhile.

 

Since then, I have not returned to Mando Raiders, and now that I'm past the level of Taral V and right at level for Maelstrom, I'm looking again.

 

So, now that my backstory is out of the way....

 

Do I feel we need an LFG? - YES! Most people don't have the patience to stand around in one place for an hour, or several hours, looking for a group to run with. I am one of them. If I'm going to sit around and do nothing, what is the point of even playing? And this condition applies, regardless if you are on a low pop -or- a high pop server.

 

Yes, I am well aware of the consequences and the poison that comes with an LFG tool. I've been kicked out of a Flashpoint once already, and an LFG tool does make it much easier for a group to do that. That being said, I feel the benefits of an LFG, far outweigh the negatives.

 

I should not have to be several levels over the recommended level, and geared past a Flashpoint to consider doing it, and I shouldn't have to sit around in one place doing nothing, just to get a group.

 

These same tenets apply to Heroics on the various planets as well. Since leaving Courscant, I have only done 3 Heroics. 1 on Tatooine, 1 on Alderann and 1 on Hoth. That's alot of XP and Quest Rewards left behind, simply because there was no way to run the content. You can advertise for hours sometimes on these planets, and never get a hit. It's maddening. I wish the Heroics would have been done more like "Public Quests" were done in Warhammer, or like a more complex [Area] quest, where the objectives are completed by anyone in the area, and count for everyone.

[Phyreblade]

All well and good except for the fact that you can show no negative effects of the tool upon your gameplay if you choose to not use the tool. If you think you can, I'd love to see specific examples including cause and effect.

 

Did you ever quest in the Duskwood zone before WOW implemented a LFG tool? How about the Plaguelands? Or the Burning Steppes? I did. Some of the stories were pretty neat and you usually had a couple of quests that required you find other players to group up with in order to complete. It was fun. I also quested in those zones after the LFG tool was implemented. Finding players to play with through the various zones like Duskwood, afterwards, was just about impossible. I was actually told at one point, "Why bother with that, just roll for a dungeon."

 

Basically, people leveled through the LFG tool, rather, and world zones were dead, empty, and whatever stories might have been explored, there, were lonely travails. Got to a point I was actually stunned to see PC's running by me, I became so accustomed to being all by myself out and about in Azeroth. Most PC's just hung out in SW or Org, waiting for the tool to send them to the next dungeon. It became a b-o-r-i-n-g game of dungeon-hopping, shrug.

 

When I say there's a negative impact on the community THAT is what *I* am thinking of, my experience with a game both prior and after a LFG tool was implemented. Since my experience was a negative one in that other game, I can't be truly happy or excited about seeing anything like that being introduced in this game, is all. I don't want another dungeon-hopping game to play. If I did, I would've continued playing WOW.

 

But, again, what is there to debate, when the tool will be implemented in this game in the next patch? Thing's going to be added, whether you like it or not. How much dead does the horse need to be, lol?

[DarthTHC]

I'll add in my 2 credits here...

 

Yes, I am well aware of the consequences and the poison that comes with an LFG tool. I've been kicked out of a Flashpoint once already, and an LFG tool does make it much easier for a group to do that. That being said, I feel the benefits of an LFG, far outweigh the negatives.

 

I should not have to be several levels over the recommended level, and geared past a Flashpoint to consider doing it, and I shouldn't have to sit around in one place doing nothing, just to get a group.

 

...

 

Quite the opposite. In today's non-LFG world, the group lead (and only the group lead) can kick you out of the group. There's no vote. There's no majority. There's one player deciding to throw you out at any time for any reason. In a properly implemented LFG tool, hopefully a majority vote would be required. That's at least one other person.

 

Preach it, brother!.

[DarthTHC]

Did you ever quest in the Duskwood zone before WOW implemented a LFG tool? How about the Plaguelands? Or the Burning Steppes? I did. Some of the stories were pretty neat and you usually had a couple of quests that required you find other players to group up with in order to complete. It was fun. I also quested in those zones after the LFG tool was implemented. Finding players to play with through the various zones like Duskwood, afterwards, was just about impossible. I was actually told at one point, "Why bother with that, just roll for a dungeon."

 

Yup, I did. More than once. Both before and after LFG. It was fun each time, though somewhat less fun after because, well, I had already done all that stuff. But it's important to stay on that point. It was less fun after LFG not because of LFG but because I had already seen the content.

 

Basically, people leveled through the LFG tool, rather, and world zones were dead, empty, and whatever stories might have been explored, there, were lonely travails. Got to a point I was actually stunned to see PC's running by me, I became so accustomed to being all by myself out and about in Azeroth. Most PC's just hung out in SW or Org, waiting for the tool to send them to the next dungeon. It became a b-o-r-i-n-g game of dungeon-hopping, shrug.

 

I lived this too. After I'd leveled characters the old fashioned way a number of times, the zones became droll and boring. Again, this is because I had seen it all before and not because of the LFG. It's like reading the same book over and over and over again. At some point you've memorized it, and why read the book yet again?

 

The beauty of LFG is exactly what you described. After LFG, I could choose how to level. I didn't have to do the same quests I had become bored with to level my next character. I could instead level through dungeons. This was a personal choice. I preferred repeatedly doing dungeons to repeating the quests yet again. I was very happy the game gave me that option, and Blizzard probably kept my subscription dollars for a lot more months because of this than they would have without LFG.

 

SWTOR does not offer this ability, currently. Even on the most lively of servers, it's well nigh impossible to get an on-level, while-leveling group for a flashpoint most times of the day. And you're certainly not going to chain-run them. Don't take my word for it though, take BioWare's. That's the reason they've said they're improving their LFG tool.

 

When I say there's a negative impact on the community THAT is what *I* am thinking of, my experience with a game both prior and after a LFG tool was implemented. Since my experience was a negative one in that other game, I can't be truly happy or excited about seeing anything like that being introduced in this game, is all. I don't want another dungeon-hopping game to play. If I did, I would've continued playing WOW.

 

I see how the experience was negative for you. You enjoyed doing the world quests more than the dungeons. You would have enjoyed it more had more people been around while doing it. That's how YOU want to enjoy the game.

 

But others want to do it differently.

 

Dilemma.

 

But, again, what is there to debate, when the tool will be implemented in this game in the next patch? Thing's going to be added, whether you like it or not. How much dead does the horse need to be, lol?

 

No, no, keep going. I dig thoughtful debate especially when it includes concrete examples!

Edited May 4, 2012 by DarthTHC

[Razdek]

The arguement that a simple tool such as the lfg tool ruins a community is just stupid. Rude and ignorant people who use the tool and abuse this tool ruin the community. The community is the players if everyone was nice and did the right thing while grouping and were not self centered then the tools are amazing.

 

Saying no you cannot impliment a great tool because it ruins the community is not a valid argument. Instead why not have a report system for those people who do ruin the community. Besides with companions is there such a thing as a ninja anymore? My companions need fat loots too (mind you im not rude enough to roll on items that an actual player needs more then my companions) but that is how people will justify it. And because bioware hasnt included armour that upgrades with your companions level then people will find that armour etc in instances. Still thats players choices not a lfg fault!

[Staavis_SC]

Basically, people leveled through the LFG tool, rather, and world zones were dead, empty, and whatever stories might have been explored, there, were lonely travails. Got to a point I was actually stunned to see PC's running by me, I became so accustomed to being all by myself out and about in Azeroth. Most PC's just hung out in SW or Org, waiting for the tool to send them to the next dungeon. It became a b-o-r-i-n-g game of dungeon-hopping, shrug.

 

In all fairness, SWTOR already has this.

 

I'm on a PvP server, so seeing other people out in the world, is kind of important. Yet, from Level 1-41, I have only seen the other faction 4 times. 3 of the times, it was Level 50's out and about murdering lowbies. So not exactly a fun or enjoyable experience. The only time I have engaged in semi-fair open world PvP, I came across a pair of Level 32/33 Imps on Alderann. I was Level 37 at the time. We fought for a few minutes, then I left them alone, and they waved as I left.

 

That being said, yesterday, I was on Quesh. There were 5 people on the planet. On Hoth last night, there were 13.

 

The worlds often feel dead because they are so massive, everyone is scattered about, and, if you come across someone, it's usually in passing on the road to your next mission objective. And for Open World PvP, well, let's just say there isn't any.

 

So, I would pose this question to you, how will having an LFG tool make the situation any different than it already is? As it stands right now, most planets are empty anyway, and if you do happen across someone, they are doing their own thing, stealing your mission objectives or a Level 50 opposing faction just waiting to slaughter you.

 

I welcome an LFG tool. ASAP!

[DarthTHC]

In all fairness, SWTOR already has this.

 

Going to add that you can still level completely via PvP LFG-finder once you get to Fleet, can't you?