Someone explain the LFG tool hate?

[ironix]

However.. i am on a populated server.. perhaps make it available for players who stay on light servers.

 

Anyone who suggest such a solution really doesn't know what they're talking about. You cannot create a situation where some people have access to a tool where others don't simply because of some arbitrary line.

[rhirne]

Maybe I can help explain the whole problem. The problem is not with the LFG tool itself, but how many companies decide to implement it.

 

Most often than not, when a LFG / LFD tool is implemented, it is done as an "auto-group" feature and then they add cross-server. You say you want a LFG / LFD, but did you know that with /who, you already have that funtionality in SWTOR if people use it? You can even add comments about what you are looking to group for. So the tool is "technically" already in the game. The thing is, I have heard over and over again "i don't want to talk to anybody to do <xyz-activity>......"

 

Example: During the recent Rhakghoul event, people were complaining about the vaccine and it costing 2k credits. At the same time, those who were into the event were saying "If you ASK me for some vaccines, I will give you some cause I don't use them as i am doing the dailies. Just ASK me for one." But when you get responses like "I don't want to ask you for one cause I shouldn't have to" it gives you a sinking feeling in the stomache.

 

In an MMO, there's needs to be some sort of communication. I have been in so many parties in other MMO's where not a word is spoken. The group is formed, and for 5 hours, no one says a word. Then the group just disbands and you're sitting there wondering "Did that just happen.... Not even a word...???"

 

As much as people hate on it, I played FFXI from beta til about ~2 years ago and it fostered a true server community. People complained about the forced grouping, but you got to know everyone on your server. You knew what classes they had, their levels, their alts, and even a little about them personally. You knew how they played, and what their strengths were. But sitting there for hours in a group, you talked; even if it was just about something totally stupid - you talked to each other. You got to know the people on your server who were just lazy, those trying to better themselves, and those who were just so they could talk to their children / grandchildren (yes grandma and grandpa play) cause they live 3000 miles away. That started going downhill quickly when auto-grouping was added.

 

 

I have seen, even in SWTOR, people who just refuse to change their gaming-style to make themselves a better player. "Hey smuggler, how come you don't drop into cover?" "Cause it doesn't really add a whiole lot of benefit for me." "Hey, how come you never have your 60 min. ability up" "Cuase it sucks" We understand about playing how you want to play, but there are some basics that should be inherent to everyone and they are not. And when people choose to refuse to adapt, it causes a problem for me if I'm in your PUG. So many people don't know the basics of their own class - and don't want to know.

 

As was stated before, in a server only situation, it can be policed by the server as a whole. A player refuses to change for the better, we can refuse to group with them - SERVER WIDE. So as a community, we can help to hopefully make it better. Someone is always spamming general chat with "I @$@ your mom and chuck norris and ...." they can be refused parties. That means no operations, no flashpoints, no joining a Guild, etc.. They change or they are excluded...

 

Now with cross-server, it can no longer be policed and these people can continue to do w/e they want without any reprocussions. How does someone on server 50 know how someone on server 2 is? How does someone on server 6 know that the PUG they just got has people from 2 other servers that just sit at the Flashpoint entrance and do nothing to contribute? I get plenty of blind invites, is it that hard to /whisper me "Want to join me?"

 

I have met many people from MMO's; many whom I've even met IRL. I found out that 2 people in one of the Guilds I was in, lived literally 1 mile down the street. We had been seeing each other at the store for years not knowing it. MMO's have a unique them about them. I don't know the color of your skin, the language you speak, the country you are from, where you live, what job you do, etc... Yet we can come together for a common goal and get along without issue. And on top of that, we can police the community of our server in a, normally, civil manner.

 

We talk to each other, we can help each other out. There are many stories of people helping out people IRL not ever meeting them but only what they know from the game. That's the community people don't want to get rid of. And unless you've ever been part of a community like that, you just will never understand.

[Kucerakov]

I played Wow for years and the cross server dungeon tool absolutely killed the community whether you see it or not OP. I am talking cross server here and not just one that would only incorporate your own realm, don't see a problem with that.

 

First it was cross realm bg;s in wow which was were previously I made most friends then the cross server lfg tool was the final nail in the coffin.

 

I don't know what WoW you are playing but on all the servers I play there is a thriving community. People know each other, people know who is bad, and lame. And people that actually like to group more than they like being safe from the very rare (yes, they are rare) lame lfg person, will use the lfg tool. And actually GROUP in the two hours thye have to play.

 

The "it ruins community" gripe is a straw man. LFG tools have not affected community one iota. I don't know what to tell you except that the same "community" can't be behaving differently for two people. I know I am not lying, or delusional. Therefore I must assume you are.

 

Stop saying the lfg ruined the WoW "community". NO.

[Axvil]

To me, in theory, it sounds like a great idea.. I spend (waste) way too much of my actual playing time sitting at the fleet, spamming "LFG".. btw, I also have my LFG tab filled out as well.. and no one wants to run anything..

Yes, friends list and guildies, that's where most ppl first turn to, so saying that I'm spamming LFG at the Fleet should indicate that all other options have been exhausted.

So, I'd love to be able to group with ppl from other server for FP runs..

[trindermon]

Posted this in another topic, sorry for cross post.

 

sums up my thoughts however.

 

God bless its like WoW has ruined this generation's MMO gamers

I understand if your on a light server but we don't need a LFG Tool, Find a Guild and let them run flashpoints with you

 

LFG system wasn't implanted until Wrath and now its like every single MMO needs it... am i the only one against it.

 

Its really not a clear cut issue. There are pro's and cons to each view. However are the problems i have with arguements like yours. (and i am not agressively flaming you here mate, just trying to play devils advocate).

 

The problem with the whole "we dont need it find a guild" argument is that its not a good argument against a cross-server LFG tool. Its a proposed solution and its not a good one because its not relivent.

 

My Example/Justification for saying this is,

 

If you are in a guild, and IF you are already running flashpoints or oporations with your guild, a cross server LFG tool would have zero impact on your game play experiance. You have already isolated your small part of the community and you are happy playing with it. (and frankly good for you). In essance a cross server LFG tool should not effect anyone already persuing this play style.

 

On the other hand lets look @ a cross server LFG tool and look @ why its a good idea, or why its a bad idea.

.1. GOOD - it allows the developers to scale there infrastructure in a more flexable manner so that server populations are less of a issue and also when they need to be changed via mergers/transfers/community management they have breething room.

 

.2. BAD - People act like a55holes in groups where they are not going to see people again. Meaning, that using a tool can sometimes (most of the time if you believe these forums) have a poor experiance in a group.

 

I totally agree with point that people can be idiots in random groups, but same server groups are not imune to this problem ether so its only half decent argument. Its worth noting however that at least same server groups might become aware if someone is a ***. That said, if you have one bad day with same server envrionments you might have your card marked slighly unfairly as well. (not that this is a good arguement - never the less its true however).

 

The issue with the whole "get a guild" argeument is effectively you are saying "play this way and you will be ok". In a MASSIVELY cometative gaming space (MMOs are, there is tones of choice of consumers to go spend there hard earned money) it make sense for the health of a games population to make the game availible to the most people possible. a Cross server LFG tool would allow flexibility in the community that means that people like me (someone who as a mid30s guy, with a busy real life) could experiance group content - right now i dont have the time to find a group - and with the state of the population on my server even if LFG was any good, i would probably still struggle.

 

Of course once server transfers come up id be ok right? Well the problem is that really you are still cutting player choice id still be reliant on people on my server (and swtor servers seem to have a small number of max players in any case) to want to do the same instance as me.

 

Not only that, server pops arnt just a problem right now, its a evolutionary process through out a games life - so we might get rid of the issue on a tempory basis but we would only be shifting the player base's problems by another 6 months.

 

Like i said, a cross server LFG tool would have zero impact on your game play experiance if you want to play only with people on 1 server, it would also give me more choice due to my compleatley limited play time. I am not saying your wrong i am just saying its not a simple argument.

 

In the past we didnt need LFG tools because they had not become common place, but back in the day (and i've played most mmo's prior to wow, EQ, AO, Ultima etc) - it was ok to sit around not doing anything waiting for a group - it fostered a strong sense of community - the problem is any MMO now expecting people to do that will not be a commercial sucess - this is because people have come to expect "instant action" (the main exception to this is eve online) - i want SWTOR to be a success for bioware and EA ; to do that they are going to have to cater for as many play styles as possible without hurting people in oposite demographics.

[Kucerakov]

Maybe I can help explain the whole problem. The problem is not with the LFG tool itself, but how many companies decide to implement it.

 

Most often than not, when a LFG / LFD tool is implemented, it is done as an "auto-group" feature and then they add cross-server. You say you want a LFG / LFD, but did you know that with /who, you already have that funtionality in SWTOR if people use it? You can even add comments about what you are looking to group for. So the tool is "technically" already in the game. The thing is, I have heard over and over again "i don't want to talk to anybody to do <xyz-activity>......"

 

Example: During the recent Rhakghoul event, people were complaining about the vaccine and it costing 2k credits. At the same time, those who were into the event were saying "If you ASK me for some vaccines, I will give you some cause I don't use them as i am doing the dailies. Just ASK me for one." But when you get responses like "I don't want to ask you for one cause I shouldn't have to" it gives you a sinking feeling in the stomache.

 

In an MMO, there's needs to be some sort of communication. I have been in so many parties in other MMO's where not a word is spoken. The group is formed, and for 5 hours, no one says a word. Then the group just disbands and you're sitting there wondering "Did that just happen.... Not even a word...???"

 

As much as people hate on it, I played FFXI from beta til about ~2 years ago and it fostered a true server community. People complained about the forced grouping, but you got to know everyone on your server. You knew what classes they had, their levels, their alts, and even a little about them personally. You knew how they played, and what their strengths were. But sitting there for hours in a group, you talked; even if it was just about something totally stupid - you talked to each other. You got to know the people on your server who were just lazy, those trying to better themselves, and those who were just so they could talk to their children / grandchildren (yes grandma and grandpa play) cause they live 3000 miles away. That started going downhill quickly when auto-grouping was added.

 

 

I have seen, even in SWTOR, people who just refuse to change their gaming-style to make themselves a better player. "Hey smuggler, how come you don't drop into cover?" "Cause it doesn't really add a whiole lot of benefit for me." "Hey, how come you never have your 60 min. ability up" "Cuase it sucks" We understand about playing how you want to play, but there are some basics that should be inherent to everyone and they are not. And when people choose to refuse to adapt, it causes a problem for me if I'm in your PUG. So many people don't know the basics of their own class - and don't want to know.

 

As was stated before, in a server only situation, it can be policed by the server as a whole. A player refuses to change for the better, we can refuse to group with them - SERVER WIDE. So as a community, we can help to hopefully make it better. Someone is always spamming general chat with "I @$@ your mom and chuck norris and ...." they can be refused parties. That means no operations, no flashpoints, no joining a Guild, etc.. They change or they are excluded...

 

Now with cross-server, it can no longer be policed and these people can continue to do w/e they want without any reprocussions. How does someone on server 50 know how someone on server 2 is? How does someone on server 6 know that the PUG they just got has people from 2 other servers that just sit at the Flashpoint entrance and do nothing to contribute? I get plenty of blind invites, is it that hard to /whisper me "Want to join me?"

 

I have met many people from MMO's; many whom I've even met IRL. I found out that 2 people in one of the Guilds I was in, lived literally 1 mile down the street. We had been seeing each other at the store for years not knowing it. MMO's have a unique them about them. I don't know the color of your skin, the language you speak, the country you are from, where you live, what job you do, etc... Yet we can come together for a common goal and get along without issue. And on top of that, we can police the community of our server in a, normally, civil manner.

 

We talk to each other, we can help each other out. There are many stories of people helping out people IRL not ever meeting them but only what they know from the game. That's the community people don't want to get rid of. And unless you've ever been part of a community like that, you just will never understand.

 

Luckily we don't have to deal with hypotheticals. We have real world data. Games implement X server LFG and people make vigorous use of it, invariably. And never complain about lost community. People don't like to do things that make their world worse. Drug addicts do, but the LFG tool is no heroin. If it had such an adverse effect, people would refrain from using it. It doesn't, so they don't.

 

I swear the people against X-Server lfg are blizzard employees planted to make the game fail.

 

EDIT

 

And, really, a smuggler who won't use cover and someone who refuses to use their 60 minute buff? Made up examples do not become us.

Edited May 1, 2012 by Kucerakov

[Malsidius]

The problem for me isn't the LFG queueing system, it's the cross server system that sucks. MMORPG's are about meeting players, grouping and developing a community, how is this possible if you are grouping with players on other servers who you will never see again?

 

I have made a lot of friends over the years, many im still in contact with, quite a few i still game with, all i met through gaming and most through grouping.

 

If they implement the cross server system anyone joining a guild will do so cold, your chances of meeting a nice guild through grouping with them and joining that way is pretty much nil.

 

The community in swtor is bad enough as it is, this is just another nail in the coffin.

 

 

In real life, you can't make friends from out of town?

[TheOnlyKyrenS]

I wouldn't mind a x-server LFG tool IF you would toggle between x-server and same server.

[Valkirus]

I am all for LFG for FPs. As long as they dont do them for raids. I think that was the dumbest thing Blizz did.

 

I think it was a awesome addition. Blizz must think so too. Players will be able to do all 3 new raids in MOP using the LFR ( Looking for Raid ) tool. With out this tool, many players would never get to do end game content. You do know the drops are not as good as normal and heroic Dragon Soul raid? But they are better than 5 man heroics. Those who want more of a challenge allways have the option to to the harder modes. The same could be done with TOR's cross server tool for end game content.

[Skidrowbro]

X-server LFG tools have caused guilds to break up because now it doesn't become a group thing, it becomes a me thing. Players start relying less and less on their guilds and server communities. It's a simple fact that majority of people will use the least path of resistance. So for the people who don't want to use it it will affect them.

 

Also for those that keep on stating that it should have been in from the start, here is how it would of went down, Chain run using LFG sysytem, ding 50 in a week, come to forums claiming there isn't anything to do at 50.

[ferroz]

The problem for me isn't the LFG queueing system, it's the cross server system that sucks. MMORPG's are about meeting players, grouping and developing a community, how is this possible if you are grouping with players on other servers who you will never see again?

this doesn't make any sense. Cross server grouping doesn't actually cause that. You can see people again cross server; you can friend them, and invite them to future groups; you can chat with them, and see when they log on. The whole "will never see again" arguing is absurd.

 

If your argument is that "the chances of randomly running across someone again is small" then you're actually arguing against large populations, not cross server in specific... there's no differences in the odds of running across someone randomly in a flashpoint between cross server with X servers and merging those same X servers to get a healthy population.

 

If they implement the cross server system anyone joining a guild will do so cold, your chances of meeting a nice guild through grouping with them and joining that way is pretty much nil.

No, there have been people talking about recruiting for their guild in rift via cross server grouping. It's certainly how I'd be recruiting. Edited May 1, 2012 by ferroz

[Valkirus]

X-server LFG tools have caused guilds to break up because now it doesn't become a group thing, it becomes a me thing. Players start relying less and less on their guilds and server communities. It's a simple fact that majority of people will use the least path of resistance. So for the people who don't want to use it it will affect them.

 

Also for those that keep on stating that it should have been in from the start, here is how it would of went down, Chain run using LFG sysytem, ding 50 in a week, come to forums claiming there isn't anything to do at 50.

 

I can only speak of my guild..which before cross server LFG tool was added in WoW....we had like 150 members..now 2 yrs later we have 237. It has had no negative impact on our guild. Maybe that is because within our own guild is the community we care most for and also all of us are casual players who like the idea of being able to experence end game content at our best play times.

 

I think some of the hate for a cross server LFG tool comes from hardcore raiding guilds who donot like how some less dedicated players can experence end game content. When Blizz added the LFR tool in WoW, they got alot of complaints on the forums, but those mostly were from the hardcore raiders and thankfully Blizz looked at thier own internal data rather than some complaining on the forums to make the right decision. Which has sence showed them it is very successful.

Edited May 1, 2012 by Valkirus

[Kaedian]

The problem for me isn't the LFG queueing system, it's the cross server system that sucks. MMORPG's are about meeting players, grouping and developing a community, how is this possible if you are grouping with players on other servers who you will never see again?

 

I have made a lot of friends over the years, many im still in contact with, quite a few i still game with, all i met through gaming and most through grouping.

 

If they implement the cross server system anyone joining a guild will do so cold, your chances of meeting a nice guild through grouping with them and joining that way is pretty much nil.

 

The community in swtor is bad enough as it is, this is just another nail in the coffin.

 

 

This guy gets it.

[chaosdefined]

X-server LFG tools have caused guilds to break up because now it doesn't become a group thing, it becomes a me thing. Players start relying less and less on their guilds and server communities. It's a simple fact that majority of people will use the least path of resistance. So for the people who don't want to use it it will affect them.

 

Also for those that keep on stating that it should have been in from the start, here is how it would of went down, Chain run using LFG sysytem, ding 50 in a week, come to forums claiming there isn't anything to do at 50.

 

Sorry but that's completely false! If that were remotely true then WoW wouldn't be full of Guilds like it currently is.

 

If you're unable to present an actual case, please don't resort to obvious lies.

[Valkirus]

This guy gets it.

 

No he does'nt. He is assuming from his own perspective and atttitude against a cross server LFG tool what he thinks is universal. If that is the case however....why would Blizzard expand it even more in thier upcoming expansion? Overall it has been very succesful for them. And could be for TOR also.

[Scar]

I haven't played WoW in a while: do they now have the capability of friending cross server?

[chaosdefined]

I haven't played WoW in a while: do they now have the capability of friending cross server?

 

Yup, you gotta trade E-mail addresses for it but means you can chat and group with friends cross-server

[Scar]

Yup, you gotta trade E-mail addresses for it but means you can chat and group with friends cross-server

 

Trading RL email addresses? This part of the RealID implementation?

[Cerion]

I don't like Cross-Server LFG tool because it makes it easier for gold farmers/RMT to operate. They can have one base of operations on a populated server making all their credits/gold, then use X-server LFG to transfer money and items to other servers, which can then have an impact on that server's economy.

 

At least with many, many isolated servers, RMT/gold farmers have to have a presence on each server which hinders their operations.

 

edit: should mention I don't have a problem with same-server LFG tool.

Edited May 1, 2012 by Cerion

[Valkirus]

Trading RL email addresses? This part of the RealID implementation?

 

Yes. Your battlenet ID is based on your email. And why would'nt you want to share your email address with your friends? I mean..they would not be a friend if I thought they would sell my email address to spammers...

[Blackardin]

Care to explain how a Group Finder tool magically made people not care about their 'community' and stop talking to each other?

 

Group Finder = Group = Playing Game = VOODOO = no community?

 

This is the exact cavalier attitude, misinformation and conjecture that allowed the cross server lfg to infest wow.

 

People did not stop talking to each other on their personal servers there skip, they stopped grouping with each other and that is exactly what community is in these games. It is people forming groups to accomplish game objectives, and from there forming friendships and guilds. One can claim to have met all sorts of people from other servers but the odds of ever seeing them again, ever trading with them, every guilding with them or socializing with them is nill.

 

The second problem is that it will not solve queue times, it will band-aid them. Right before I moved here from wow, queue times for dps, on anything less the bleeding edge content was around 45 minutes to 2 hours....and the level of group and behavior was abysmal.

 

We will also sacrifice quality for quantity. Anyone that has used the LFG tool in wow knows damn well the level of player he would be dealing it. We had dps pulling, people refusing to cc, people rage quitting on a single wipe or bad pull, people arguing and fighting, not following tank target, and quite frankly having no clue as to how to do their job in a group environment....and not caring because there was no accountability.

 

The level of behavior dropped to that of a 12 year old school yard. We had a tank shortage because older tanks such as myself refused to subject themselves to it, and newer tanks didn't stand a chance of learning, and were often verbally attacked or kicked for not holding aggro against dps that had no idea how to play. Our tank boards were full of these types of complaints.

 

In short, the quality of grouping drops dramatically. The skill level of players drops dramatically. The level of behavior when there is no accountability, drops dramatically. In fact, the only thing that did not drop were queue times.

 

Want to solve the grouping issues? Merge servers. Create a server wide LFG tool. Allow for instant travel to and from the flashpoint when grouping. Provide better reward and experience for leveling flashpoints and heroic +2s so that people will be motivated to do them. Increase rewards for guilded raids so as to promote guild formation.

 

Whatever you do, never, ever, ever listen to the instant gratification types that never look beyond their nose except when in denial. Cross server LFG is the dumbest idea in the history of dumb ideas.

Edited May 1, 2012 by Blackardin

[Hawksworth]

Care to explain how a Group Finder tool magically made people not care about their 'community' and stop talking to each other?

 

Group Finder = Group = Playing Game = VOODOO = no community?

 

It's straightforward really but I'll spell it out for you. Playing with people who weren't on your realm led to less communication in pug's and more antisocial behaviour. This was probably because some peole figured hey, It's not like I'll ever see these people again. Having positive experiences in pug's leads to you adding that person and wanting to play with them again and before you know it they bring some of their frineds and so on an aso forth till hey, you actually know a few people and have a few friends on your server to play with.

 

This has alraedy been happening to me in TOR and it reminds me of the old days in WOW and it's pretty great tbh. No voodoo involved, can you understand this or do I need to break it down further for you?

[ferroz]

I haven't played WoW in a while: do they now have the capability of friending cross server?

realid - requires sharing email addresses.

battletag - does not require sharing email addresses.

 

Playing with people who weren't on your realm led to less communication in pug's and more antisocial behaviour.

You're just asserting that this is the case, to people who don't agree that your basis is true.

 

So right now, your claim still looks like "voodoo"

 

This guy gets it.

So... by "gets it" you mean "is saying things that are flatly false" ?

Edited May 1, 2012 by ferroz

[Valkirus]

I don't like Cross-Server LFG tool because it makes it easier for gold farmers/RMT to operate. They can have one base of operations on a populated server making all their credits/gold, then use X-server LFG to transfer money and items to other servers, which can then have an impact on that server's economy.

 

At least with many, many isolated servers, RMT/gold farmers have to have a presence on each server which hinders their operations.

 

edit: should mention I don't have a problem with same-server LFG tool.

 

You can place a player you suspect is a gold farmer on your ignore list and never have to be concerned with running with them again. Reporting such players is allways a option too. Plus...it is not like we donot have gold farmers now in TOR.. Even the speed hackers still exist in TOR. Not having a cross server LFG tool may hinder them some, but at the cost of punishing the legit players from not being able to get a group for runs? How silly.

[ferroz]

I don't like Cross-Server LFG tool because it makes it easier for gold farmers/RMT to operate. They can have one base of operations on a populated server making all their credits/gold, then use X-server LFG to transfer money and items to other servers, which can then have an impact on that server's economy.

 

At least with many, many isolated servers, RMT/gold farmers have to have a presence on each server which hinders their operations.

 

edit: should mention I don't have a problem with same-server LFG tool.

So... what game are you talking about where this is true?

 

It's certainly not WoW... you can't transfer items via cross server lfg in wow.