Someone explain the LFG tool hate?

[DarthTHC]

You guys are making this a lot harder than it needs to be.

 

BioWare has stated that they want more people to be able to experience group content, so they're improving their LFG implementation. They realize this is a problem because they have telemetry data that shows them what percentage of the population experiences group content. They also know how many people cite difficulty finding groups as one of the reasons they unsubscribe from the game - it's in their unsubscribe survey.

 

Overall server populations are insufficient to support BioWare's stated goal with a single-server tool. This is not an opinion. Log into any LIGHT population server at prime-time and take a look at how many players there are in each flashpoint's level band. Then understand that some percentage of those - over 50% but possibly more - are not interested in grouping at that moment due to a multitude of reasons ranging from needing to log out soon to wanting to work on their class quests. You will quickly see that there are too few people to form flashpoint groups reliably.

 

The tool may release as single-server, sure. But when BioWare sees no or a minuscule increase in the number of players experiencing group content as a result, they are going to have to abandon their goal, make the tool cross-server, or merge servers.

 

Let's give BioWare the benefit of the doubt and eliminate offhand the notion that they'd abandon the desire for more people to see group content in their MMO. I think reasonable people can agree that's a fair assumption.

 

Regardless what fan logic may assume, the reality is that a server merge any time soon would be viewed by the investment community as negative for the game, thus negative for EA, thus negative for the EA upper management and board of directors bonuses. There is no way EA management will allow a server merge any time soon.

 

Regardless of complaints, fears, and straw-man arguments to the contrary (more on that in a second), cross-server LFG will be a reality in this game at some point, and that point will be shortly after single-server LFG is released.

 

Straw-Man Arguments

 

"Ninja Looters hurt my posterior." BioWare themselves have stated that people are perfectly OK rolling Need on items if they need the credits they'll get by vendoring the item. I don't much like this stance, but, hey, that's what they said. Therefore, there is no such thing as a Ninja Looter in this game.

 

"Stupid players face-pull." Yah, well, they do that in the game today, too. X-LFG (even Single-Server LFG) won't change this. The level best you can do is harass these players in general chat, but really what's the point of that?

 

"Players are mean to me in group chat." See the face-pull comment above. Some players are mean. Some players are telling you that you suck (and they might be right). Grow a thicker skin to deal with the former and learn to take constructive criticism to deal with the latter.

 

 

Anyway, keep whining, wailing, and gnashing your teeth over your fears of actually encountering strangers in dungeons. The stress over the game is certain to add years to your lives. Me, I'll run through the class quest stories I'm interested in and, if finding a group is still a PITA when I'm done with that, I'll simply not renew the subscription I've already cancelled because finding a group is a PITA.

 

MTFBWY

Edited May 2, 2012 by DarthTHC

[matzackjones]

You guys are making this a lot harder than it needs to be.

 

BioWare has stated that they want more people to be able to experience group content, so they're improving their LFG implementation. They realize this is a problem because they have telemetry data that shows them what percentage of the population experiences group content. They also know how many people cite difficulty finding groups as one of the reasons they unsubscribe from the game - it's in their unsubscribe survey.

 

Overall server populations are insufficient to support BioWare's stated goal with a single-server tool. This is not an opinion. Log into any LIGHT population server at prime-time and take a look at how many players there are in each flashpoint's level band. Then understand that some percentage of those - over 50% but possibly more - are not interested in grouping at that moment due to a multitude of reasons ranging from needing to log out soon to wanting to work on their class quests. You will quickly see that there are too few people to form flashpoint groups reliably.

 

The tool may release as single-server, sure. But when BioWare sees no or a minuscule increase in the number of players experiencing group content as a result, they are going to have to abandon their goal, make the tool cross-server, or merge servers.

 

Let's give BioWare the benefit of the doubt and eliminate offhand the notion that they'd abandon the desire for more people to see group content in their MMO. I think reasonable people can agree that's a fair assumption.

 

Regardless what fan logic may assume, the reality is that a server merge any time soon would be viewed by the investment community as negative for the game, thus negative for EA, thus negative for the EA upper management and board of directors. There is no way EA management will allow a server merge any time soon.

 

Regardless of complaints, fears, and straw-man arguments to the contrary (more on that in a second), cross-server LFG will be a reality in this game at some point, and that point will be shortly after single-server LFG is released.

 

Straw-Man Arguments

 

"Ninja Looters hurt my posterior." BioWare themselves have stated that people are perfectly OK rolling Need on items if they need the credits they'll get by vendoring the item. I don't much like this stance, but, hey, that's what they said. Therefore, there is no such thing as a Ninja Looter in this game.

 

"Stupid players face-pull." Yah, well, they do that in the game today, too. X-LFG (even Single-Server LFG) won't change this. The level best you can do is harass these players in general chat, but really what's the point of that?

 

"Players are mean to me in group chat." See the face-pull comment above. Some players are mean. Some players are telling you that you suck (and they might be right). Grow a thicker skin to deal with the former and learn to take constructive criticism to deal with the latter.

 

 

Anyway, keep whining, wailing, and gnashing your teeth over your fears of actually encountering strangers in dungeons. The stress over the game is certain to add years to your lives. Me, I'll run through the class quest stories I'm interested in and, if finding a group is still a PITA when I'm done with that, I'll simply not renew the subscription I've already cancelled because finding a group is a PITA.

 

MTFBWY

 

I agree that I just cannot see a single-server LFG tool working for a large proportion of the EU servers. There just isnt the population there to make it viable. I have no doubt they will eventually resort to cross-server LFG. I am not so sure I agree on your points relating to server-mergers. If they really look into this and realise server transfers will not rectify the issues, I think the bad press connected with server mergers is a far better prospect than leaving those people on dead servers to get bored and quit (never to return).

[Blackardin]

Just few points.

- Plenty of people in this thread seem to have the: "I know what you should do better than you yourself do" illness. Plenty of politicians and civil servants have that same problem, that is why all the bureaucracy can only get more complex because they try to fix things that cannot be fixed with more rules that wont work. Problem is that they believe that they are right so no amount of explaining or even actual statistics can change their mind.

 

- So far I have not seen any functionality in LFG tools that prevents people from discussing with each other.

- People were rude/ninja/whatever long before LFG tools were anywhere

- When you talk about community policing something you mean actually some kind of school bullying system where you take some person and with reason or sometimes without reason destroy their reputation in your little community.

- If you want to avoid risk of any public grouping and its risks, join a big guild. That is what plenty of people do already. As a bonus you get a community where you can socialise

- In a guild you can still use the LFG tool if you wish or are feeling brave

 

I dont like auto LFG tools either. In my opinion it should be as flexible as possible.

 

You've demonstrated your contention as part of your own post.

 

Two items to correct here.

 

First, the reason that people may believe that they "Know what is better for you then you do" is because they tend both ignore, or misrepresent the opposing view so that it is easily dismissed.....as you are attempting here. The examples that you are putting forth are absurd caricatures and not the actual, rational, demonstrated reasons put forth in argument against a cross server LFG.

 

Second is the tacit fact that the more permissive a society, the more disarray, not the opposite as you have fabricated in your argument.

 

I'll add a third point here. You have completely misrepresented the entirety of the argument against and attempted to paint those that are against such as dysfunctional, or controlling. This is one more fabrication. Those of us that are against such are not attempting to control your gaming experience, but our own by not allowing uncontrolled, and unaccountably of behavior to run rampant through the grouping system.

Edited May 2, 2012 by Blackardin

[Gimixes]

Ofc 80% will not see endgame content. They dont want to work for it. Dont want to join a guild.

Soon peeps start to moan about the fact they dont find it fair because they cant see nightmare Ops with pugs...

"i pay also 15 bugs, so i want to see the same"

 

Pls...

 

I wonder whats next kids moan about...pls BW give them their candy

[Valkirus]

Ofc 80% will not see endgame content. They dont want to work for it. Dont want to join a guild.

Soon peeps start to moan about the fact they dont find it fair because they cant see nightmare Ops with pugs...

"i pay also 15 bugs, so i want to see the same"

 

Pls...

 

I wonder whats next kids moan about...pls BW give them their candy

 

I see this type of comment often. Why do some think casual gamers are kids who only want things for free? They are paying the same sub every month as the hardcore gamer and as such, should be able to experence the end game content. Not to the degree hardcore gamers do...but atleast more than just logging on ,doing dailies and logging off. You do know some gamers have real jobs, families and other RL commitments to do? They donot have the hours on end to play a game. This is something Blizzard understands.

[noodlehaus]

hmm, how about we get the tool and let the players decide wether they want to use the tool or not?

don't like running with random people from across servers? spam general chat. it's not going away.

like running with people you know? join a guild or add them to your friends list.

want convenience? use the LFG tool.

it's that simple, really.

[DarthTHC]

I agree that I just cannot see a single-server LFG tool working for a large proportion of the EU servers. There just isnt the population there to make it viable. I have no doubt they will eventually resort to cross-server LFG. I am not so sure I agree on your points relating to server-mergers. If they really look into this and realise server transfers will not rectify the issues, I think the bad press connected with server mergers is a far better prospect than leaving those people on dead servers to get bored and quit (never to return).

 

You underestimate the impact that 6-figure bonus checks have on executive decision-making. Executives in publicly traded companies are usually bonused at least in part on stock price. Server merges will cause the stock price to drop. This will impact executive bonuses.

 

The math is really, really simple. Server merge = lower executive bonuses. It won't happen any time soon.

[Jaxarale]

And most of you x-server lovers didnt notice how the community act in Wow?

 

Sure I noticed, I also noticed that the exact behavior your complaining about and linking to x-server was happening 24/7 long before LFG was introduced.

 

They are always in a hurry

Tank dont let healers get their mana back up

Dps pull mobs because tanks are to slow in there opinion

 

This happened every day in BC... if you were a "good player" and had that rep on the server then you were expected to pull fast and hard to maximize time in dungeon to stack badges... how do you not know this???

 

Dont mention the rude people

They curse a lot

They dont say anything at all while you wish everyone morning etc

 

Neither do the people I pass by walking on the street or in the mall or a lot of times at work... I understand you may not have friends IRL... this complaint smacks a bit of you just being lonely and having no one to share stuff with...

 

Dont mention AFK people

"Cant kick them because of ...." name what ya like

 

Cant kick them? Why cant you kick them? I sure have kicked plenty... Bud I have booted so many people in dungeons in my time that I should have "the booted one" as my surname...

 

What about you get kicked for no reason?

 

There is ALWAYS a reason... the fact that you would say this tells me your one of those players that did 2k less dps than the tank and they all got behind your back to boot u. This happens all the time if you have no clue how to play... "booting for no reason" simple means your a very bad player at whatever class your using.

 

Not to name the ninja folks

And please dont try to defend this because everyone is entitled to everything.

 

No defense is needed, Bioware themselves said there is no such thing as ninja looting in this game... so how about you drop it from your vocabulary... you aren't in WoW anymore.

 

And you want all this only for the possibility to push a button to get your group, ofc, faster. So you get your shiny purple pixels, ofc, faster.

 

No, I want it so I can see content that I have had to skip on my first two 50's due to lack of players on planets and fleet!

 

What are you going to do when your body is full of the purple pixels?

 

Roll a alternate toon? You do know that there are several different character classes and sub classes, each with their own dynamic story line and abilities right?

 

THIS JUST IN FROM THE NEWS DESK:

There is even a separate faction with totally new and different planets and story lines.... I realize its an amazing concept... but ya, there are things to do once you max out your character and wait for the next patch.

 

Ofc, no FP/FP HM anymore because you dont need anything anymore.

You get bored and start to whine "I'm bored"

 

The only wine I do is a robust red with chicken spaghetti on Thursday nights with my girl at Anzios....

 

Sure get LFG x-server BW....everything must be faster, faster and more faster.

 

I understand that you mean actually getting a group to do content is faster than NOT getting a group and logging off after 5 hours of yelling /LFG on fleet.

Hell, give us 400% speeders, what...give us fly mounts at 600%.

 

Damn right! 400% speeders would be saaaaweeet!

 

Let me roll lvl50 chars full of epics because i dont have time for anything.

 

There is a HUGE difference in not having time and wasting the time you do have... that is the concept you just do not seem to grasp...

I have about 3-4 hours a day I can do what I want after my responsibilities IRL are taken care of... I do not want to WASTE that time spamming on fleet for a group, not getting one, and logging off... I would rather play and enjoy a different game than waste my time doing that.

 

I want to see nightmare OPs now because i dont have time to grow in a learning proces with gearing etc.

 

I have no idea where this one came from... I dont think anyone has mentioned this in this thread, in fact this thread is about LFGroup... not LFRaid... try and keep you eye on the ball bud.

 

Pfff...spoiled folks

 

Yes, we are spoiled.... how dare we want to actually be able to play the content in this game that we pay for, while we level!!! Oh the humanity!!!

 

Wtb the period when we didnt have such luxury of LFG tools.

 

I hear you can go play EQ1, they dont have a LFG tool if I am not mistaken (I know EQ2 does)

 

You didn't hear anyone about it.

 

LOL you didnt? I sure did, in fact people were BEGGING for LFG for years before they started putting them in games... That is WHY they put them in... the majority of player bases WANTED it... and guess what, when money is involved... the majority rules!

 

And it was good fun to.[

 

SHOCKER ALERT: you can still have your good fun, you DO NOT have to use the LFG tool... AMAZING isnt it?? What a thought!!! If you feel that grouping with LFG ruins your fun and the game the way you play it... you have the option to NOT use it and continue to spam /LFG in general all day!

 

No one is trying to stop you from playing the game the way you want... stop trying to control they way I want to play...

 

/thread

[DarthTHC]

Ofc 80% will not see endgame content. They dont want to work for it. Dont want to join a guild.

Soon peeps start to moan about the fact they dont find it fair because they cant see nightmare Ops with pugs...

"i pay also 15 bugs, so i want to see the same"

 

Pls...

 

I wonder whats next kids moan about...pls BW give them their candy

 

What is "working for it"? Standing around fleet doing nothing but spamming chat for hours on end to find a group? Joining a guild that's almost never big enough to have enough players in your level-band to want to do flashpoints when you have the time to do them (talking about working folks here - you know, the casuals who fund the majority of the developers' paychecks?)?

 

To me, "working for it" is learning the fights, knowing how to play my class, and gearing up.

 

I can do the first part of that via Internet research.

 

I can do the second part of that via a combination of internet research and practice, which I *gasp* need to get into groups to do.

 

I can do the third part of that by running horrendously boring daily missions or *gasp* getting into groups.

 

The thing is, in no way does standing around Fleet doing nothing but begging for a group help me "work for it".

Edited May 2, 2012 by DarthTHC

[Valkirus]

hmm, how about we get the tool and let the players decide wether they want to use the tool or not?

don't like running with random people from across servers? spam general chat. it's not going away.

like running with people you know? join a guild or add them to your friends list.

want convenience? use the LFG tool.

it's that simple, really.

 

That is too logical for some..lol. And I agree with your comments.

[Blackardin]

You guys are making this a lot harder than it needs to be.

 

BioWare has stated that they want more people to be able to experience group content, so they're improving their LFG implementation. They realize this is a problem because they have telemetry data that shows them what percentage of the population experiences group content. They also know how many people cite difficulty finding groups as one of the reasons they unsubscribe from the game - it's in their unsubscribe survey.

 

Overall server populations are insufficient to support BioWare's stated goal with a single-server tool. This is not an opinion. Log into any LIGHT population server at prime-time and take a look at how many players there are in each flashpoint's level band. Then understand that some percentage of those - over 50% but possibly more - are not interested in grouping at that moment due to a multitude of reasons ranging from needing to log out soon to wanting to work on their class quests. You will quickly see that there are too few people to form flashpoint groups reliably.

 

The tool may release as single-server, sure. But when BioWare sees no or a minuscule increase in the number of players experiencing group content as a result, they are going to have to abandon their goal, make the tool cross-server, or merge servers.

 

Let's give BioWare the benefit of the doubt and eliminate offhand the notion that they'd abandon the desire for more people to see group content in their MMO. I think reasonable people can agree that's a fair assumption.

 

Regardless what fan logic may assume, the reality is that a server merge any time soon would be viewed by the investment community as negative for the game, thus negative for EA, thus negative for the EA upper management and board of directors bonuses. There is no way EA management will allow a server merge any time soon.

 

Regardless of complaints, fears, and straw-man arguments to the contrary (more on that in a second), cross-server LFG will be a reality in this game at some point, and that point will be shortly after single-server LFG is released.

 

Straw-Man Arguments

 

"Ninja Looters hurt my posterior." BioWare themselves have stated that people are perfectly OK rolling Need on items if they need the credits they'll get by vendoring the item. I don't much like this stance, but, hey, that's what they said. Therefore, there is no such thing as a Ninja Looter in this game.

 

"Stupid players face-pull." Yah, well, they do that in the game today, too. X-LFG (even Single-Server LFG) won't change this. The level best you can do is harass these players in general chat, but really what's the point of that?

 

"Players are mean to me in group chat." See the face-pull comment above. Some players are mean. Some players are telling you that you suck (and they might be right). Grow a thicker skin to deal with the former and learn to take constructive criticism to deal with the latter.

 

 

Anyway, keep whining, wailing, and gnashing your teeth over your fears of actually encountering strangers in dungeons. The stress over the game is certain to add years to your lives. Me, I'll run through the class quest stories I'm interested in and, if finding a group is still a PITA when I'm done with that, I'll simply not renew the subscription I've already cancelled because finding a group is a PITA.

 

MTFBWY

 

Your entire argument is a straw man.

 

Straw man is an informal fallacy that tends to misrepresent an opponents view. That is what you have done in the entirety of your essay. The examples you put forth as representing your opponents "straw man" are actually red herring arguments, Ignoratio Elenchi, or Ignorance of refutation. In short, you have fabricated red herring arguments to use in your straw man argument. ;p

 

The actually argument is that the lack of accountability to the community in which one participates will absolutely lead to a negative grouping experience for a vast majority of players. The second aspect of the contention is that it will create more peripheral problems then it will solve. The third aspect is that it will, in the long term, only enhance the ability to achieve groups for bleeding edge content. This has all been demonstrated.

[Gimixes]

I see this type of comment often. Why do some think casual gamers are kids who only want things for free? They are paying the same sub every month as the hardcore gamer and as such, should be able to experence the end game content. Not to the degree hardcore gamers do...but atleast more than just logging on ,doing dailies and logging off. You do know some gamers have real jobs, families and other RL commitments to do? They donot have the hours on end to play a game. This is something Blizzard understands.

 

Sure....so they want to play for an hour a day and reach the same as a hardcore gamer.

Dont get me wrong, im not a hardcore gamer at all..i only play 1 or 2 hours a day sometimes i dont play at all..

I really dont understand peeps want the same with less effort because they have a busy life.

[ferroz]

And most of you x-server lovers didnt notice how the community act in Wow?

EVERYTHING you mention predates the lfg tool.

 

They were in a hurry years before lfg was released; Tanks didn't let healers get their mana up... even before wow was released ( it was common in even EQ, way back in the day).

DPS pulled mobs because tanks were to slow in theirr opinion

 

There were plenty of rude people. People that cursed and who never said anything after getting invited to the group.

 

There were plenty of afk people

 

There were people getting kicked for no reason; it happens in this game, it happened in wow prior to lfg, it happened in EQ.

 

EQ had real ninjalooters; wow had people "ninjalooting" before lfg. Plenty of them in Rift and other games as well.

 

None of this is an argument against cross server lfg.

And you want all this only for the possibility to push a button to get your group, ofc, faster. So you get your shiny purple pixels, ofc, faster.

No, it's so that I can get my group faster so I can play the game more instead of sitting around in fleet afk.

 

What are you going to do when your body is full of the purple pixels?

Ofc, no FP/FP HM anymore because you dont need anything anymore.

You get bored and start to whine "I'm bored"

No, I'll still queue up because I enjoy playing the game.

 

Sure get LFG x-server BW....everything must be faster, faster and more faster.

Hell, give us 400% speeders, what...give us fly mounts at 600%.

Let me roll lvl50 chars full of epics because i dont have time for anything.

I want to see nightmare OPs now because i dont have time to grow in a learning proces with gearing etc.

Nice combination of a strawman argument with a slippery slope fallacy. You just needed one more fallacy for the fallacy hat trick.

 

Wtb the period when we didnt have such luxury of LFG tools. You didnt hear anyone about it. And it was good fun to.

No, people complained about it more than a decade ago in EQ... so you did indeed hear people talking about it. Edited May 2, 2012 by ferroz

[Blackardin]

That is too logical for some..lol. And I agree with your comments.

 

Actually, we know that is faulty logic, not strong logic as you imply. By introducing that tool, one greatly limits the availability of people outside the tool, first by assumption, secondly by determination. In short, the argument "just don't use it" is a fine representation of the short sightedness of those in favor of such. It will, by its very introduction, eliminate the ability to "not use it".

[turjake]

You've demonstrated your contention as part of your own post.

 

Two items to correct here.

 

First, the reason that people may believe that they "Know what is better for you then you do" is because they tend both ignore, or misrepresent the opposing view so that it is easily dismissed.....as you are attempting here. The examples that you are putting forth are absurd caricatures and not the actual, rational, demonstrated reasons put forth in argument against a cross server LFG.

 

Second is the tacit fact that the more permissive a society, the more disarray, not the opposite as you have fabricated in your argument.

 

I'll add a third point here. You have completely misrepresented the entirety of the argument against and attempted to paint those that are against such as dysfunctional, or controlling. This is one more fabrication. Those of us that are against such are not attempting to control your gaming experience, but our own by not allowing uncontrolled, and unaccountably of behavior to run rampant through the grouping system.

 

Yet my side (add the LFG tool) gives players more freedom to find groups and your side (no LFG tools for anyone) takes them away from everyone because you dont like them for whatever reasons.

 

To say it once more, since I am not originally english speaker: Instead of letting them make the LFG tool and then not using it if you dont like it, you want to deny it from everyone. Sounds like you think what everyone should do better than they themselves do. It doesnt get much better no matter how much you nitpick it.

[DarthTHC]

Actually, we know that is faulty logic, not strong logic as you imply. By introducing that tool, one greatly limits the availability of people outside the tool, first by assumption, secondly by determination. In short, the argument "just don't use it" is a fine representation of the short sightedness of those in favor of such. It will, by its very introduction, eliminate the ability to "not use it".

 

It will only eliminate the ability to not use it if the majority of the people use it.

 

If the majority of the people will be using it, doesn't that mean the majority of people would be in favor of it?

 

If the majority of people are in favor of it, then why would BioWare NOT implement it?

 

So either you're wrong and there will be plenty of opportunity to not use it... or the anti-X crowd is the vast minority and the X-LFG tool should be implemented post-haste.

 

Logic is hard.

[ferroz]

Actually, we know that is faulty logic, not strong logic as you imply. By introducing that tool, one greatly limits the availability of people outside the tool,

It only greatly limits it if it's something that the vast majority of the playerbase is going to use. Otherwise it has a minor, if any change to the availability of the people outside the tool.

 

 

In short, the argument "just don't use it" is a fine representation of the short sightedness of those in favor of such. It will, by its very introduction, eliminate the ability to "not use it".

That's just blatantly untrue; you will indeed still have the ability to "just don't use it" and pretending otherwise is just absurd.

 

If you're grouping with friends, and not having any problems finding groups, then you'll continue to be able to group with friends and not have any problems finding groups, without having to use the tool.

[Blackardin]

Yet my side (add the LFG tool) gives players more freedom to find groups and your side (no LFG tools for anyone) takes them away from everyone because you dont like them for whatever reasons.

 

To say it once more, since I am not originally english speaker: Instead of letting them make the LFG tool and then not using it if you dont like it, you want to deny it from everyone. Sounds like you think what everyone should do better than they themselves do. It doesnt get much better no matter how much you nitpick it.

 

Another straw man. This is not my argument at all. It is your attempted representation of my argument so as to formulate a strong counter contention. In fact it is taking on an adolescent tone.

 

I've listed my contention a number of times. Once you figure that out we can continue the debate, but I cannot discuss something, or assume a side of the debate if your are formulating both.

[DigitalPrime]

I find it amusing how you state this and then go on to say you don't want to play with people on other servers.

 

When the day comes when every player is on one server. Your point stands.

 

But at the moment it doesnt. MMOs are not just about the instances. I know some of the people cant grasp the community spirit of an MMO, I put this down to only joining MMOs recently. But as someone has pointed out. Communities can police its own community, if its stays a server based community. If someone acts an idiot in a server only community. That troll will either have to change his ways, reroll on another server or quit playing as his/her name will get around as mud and he will be blacklisted by the server.

 

Even BW stated they wanted a server based community in TOR. so its not a myth, its not about makingf you new players work, its not about destorying your wow attitude towards MMOs, Its about been a server community. End of.

 

 

Server merg over x-server

Edited May 2, 2012 by DigitalPrime

[Blackardin]

It only greatly limits it if it's something that the vast majority of the playerbase is going to use. Otherwise it has a minor, if any change to the availability of the people outside the tool.

 

This is a logical fallacy of mind projection. You are making an assumption then promulgating such into law. You are doing so in direct contrast to factual data.

 

That's just blatantly untrue; you will indeed still have the ability to "just don't use it" and pretending otherwise is just absurd.

 

If you're grouping with friends, and not having any problems finding groups, then you'll continue to be able to group with friends and not have any problems finding groups, without having to use the tool.

 

This is a straw man. You are misrepresenting my statement. Your last sentence completely rewrites both your assertion and my contention at once so as to fit it into your argument.

 

This is why one cannot debate the straw man, and why these discussions end up going all over the place, because people tend to not listen and simply rewrite the oppositions point of view so as to support their view.

 

The argument on the board is accountability and how removing such through a random LFG tool will satisfy those seeking quick, simplistic, assumed fixes, but damage the overall gaming experience. That has all be both demonstrated in this argument, and proven through Wow's implementation. Misrepresenting that contention will not change such.

[Jaxarale]

Actually, we know that is faulty logic,

 

Actually, "we" dont know its faulty... you assume it is from your point of view... there is a big difference in the two.

I personally saw tons of: "/tank lf heroic xxxx run because queuing up sucks." In wow general and trade. I even have seen people selling competent tanks and heals for a group heroic for 100gp...

 

not strong logic as you imply.

 

Its pretty strong from what I have seen... you keep forgetting to add: "in my opinion..." you are posting as if you have the facts and no one else does... It is very clear that "your side" is just as biased in their opinions as the other side that you are accusing of bias... lulz

 

By introducing that tool, one greatly limits the availability of people outside the tool, first by assumption, secondly by determination.

 

Again, simply your opinion, I have seen the exact opposite on several WoW servers, it took awhile for everyone to realize that if you did not want to have to deal with some idiots from time to time you could start announcing in trade again... but it did start happen and it was happening a lot when I left 3 months ago.

 

In short, the argument "just don't use it" is a fine representation of the short sightedness of those in favor of such.

 

Not at all, it is a choice you are being given... unlike what you are doing for those that want LFG.

 

It will, by its very introduction, eliminate the ability to "not use it"

 

This is a total and complete fabrication and should be deleted by the mods.

[turjake]

Another straw man. This is not my argument at all. It is your attempted representation of my argument so as to formulate a strong counter contention. In fact it is taking on an adolescent tone.

 

I've listed my contention a number of times. Once you figure that out we can continue the debate, but I cannot discuss something, or assume a side of the debate if your are formulating both.

 

straw man? adolescent? cannot continue debate?

 

I doubt you are really trying to discuss anything here. Anyway you picked one small paragraph of my post that didnt even talk directly about the subject of the thread, just some generic observation. (read: my opinion). Then you started showing off your epic teenager nitpicking skills (not referring your actual age, just the style how typical teenagers argue),

 

You can keep your self proglaimed win if you wish, I certainly dont need it, I can continue discussing if people want to talk about the actual topic of this thread.

[Kaltastic]

If the only response to "Don't use the LFG tool if you don't like it"

is

"I will be forced to since everyone else will"

 

then this seems to indicate that even people who are against the tool think it is something that the majority of the player base will want and will use.

[Blackardin]

When the day comes when every player is on one server. Your point stands.

 

But at the moment it doesnt. MMOs are not just about the instances. I know some of the people cant grasp the community spirit of an MMO, I put this down to only joining MMOs recently. But as someone has pointed out. Communities can police its own community, if its stays a server based community. If someone acts an idiot in a server only community. That troll will either have to change his ways, reroll on another server or quit playing as his/her name will get around as mud and he will be blacklisted by the server.

 

Even BW stated they wanted a server based community in TOR. so its not a myth, its not about makingf you new players work, its not about destorying your wow attitude towards MMOs, Its about been a server community. End of.

 

 

Server merg over x-server

 

You've hit the heart of the argument.

 

We can see this type of accountability represented quite often on our servers when people, for whatever reason, permanently tarnish their name and end up on ignore lists across the server. The removal of accountability for that type, by presenting a vehicle in which he can continue to operate unchecked is what a cross server LFG will enhance.

 

The solution to this problem is not a quick, or simplistic fix. There are no magic tools, only plans of action. This plan must include server mergers to increase population levels. It must include a server wide LFG with the ability to teleport to and from dungeons (or an easier way to transport there), and it must include greater motivation for grouping while leveling through greater rewards and experience. Moving in this direction will achieve the desired goal without the negative effects of a cross server LFG tool.

[Jaxarale]

The argument on the board is accountability and how removing such through a random LFG tool will satisfy those seeking quick, simplistic, assumed fixes, but damage the overall gaming experience.

 

I am going to bite... Can you then please explain HOW implementing a LFG tool will damage the overall gaming experience?

 

That has all be both demonstrated in this argument, and proven through Wow's implementation.

 

Can you please link me the scientific evidence or the studies done by government agencies or anything at all that is not just a QQ thread on the WoW boards that PROVES WoW's implementation of LFG damaged the overall gaming experience?

 

Misrepresenting that contention will not change such.

 

What actually is being misrepresented is that you are stating a "straw man" argument of your own and projecting this inadequate argument onto the people on the other side that you do not agree with.

You are also misrepresenting your opinion as factual and a PROVEN fact by your above post... when there is no and can be no definitive proof on either side of the debate.