Expertise - the Debate Thread, Place your Vote!

[DarkHelsing]

While I don’t disguise my enjoyment of Star Wars: The Old Republic, I have to honestly admit the PvP gear buying system is complex. Hell, it’s downright confusing. No matter the game, I’m a huge fan of PvP (Warlord in vanilla WoW). While I may not have PvPed my way to 50 in SWTOR, I enjoyed a fair share of it on the way up. Once I got there, with my hands full with Warzone Commendations, I stared at the 18 different PvP venders in sheer bewilderment. *snip*

 

Argh, don't get me started on the post 1.2 patch purchase system... I'm QQing enough on this topic as it is.

[DarkDruidSS]

Actually the numbers aren't that bad. A simple calculator shows that, based on this sample size (212 atm), assuming a player base of 1,000,000. We can be 95% certain the responses are representative of the full player base, give or take 6.73% either way. That possibly puts us somewhere near a 50/50 split.

 

Of course, the massive assumption is that the forum users are representative of those playing the game, those that don't come here. That's a different story altogether...

 

Ok let's stop for a second. There are less than 20,000 views of this thread. Let's take each view as a unique user and hope that it doesn't count users accessing the thread again after a new post as a new view. So that is less than 20,000 unique views. What percentage of 1,000,000 is 20,000? Help me with my math here.. that is .02... which is 2% right? So of 1,000,000 players we have 2% of the population that view this thread. We have 212 votes... so of the 20,000 people that viewed this thread we have 1% that voted.

 

It's late, my mind might be going at this point. So are we seriously arguing over the "voice" of 1% of 2% of the game population that voted in this thread? How exactly is this poll relevant again? Let's hope there are less than 1,000,000 players for the OP's sake. The lower the player population the better the poll will look.

 

I apologize if my math or logic are off at this point. I am tired and sadly this forum has been the best PvP of the night. Maybe I will come back tomorrow at work when I am more fresh.

 

Side note, I am really disappointed with how the population is declining in this game. Less than 50 people on the fleet since I have been on... come on.

 

WTB Server merges and cross server PvP before we worry about any more PvP balancing.

[xxdragonragexx]

Argh, don't get me started on the post 1.2 patch purchase system... I'm QQing enough on this topic as it is.

 

You can read the whole article if you want. You have way too much time on your hands anyway.

http://www.gamezone.com/products/star-wars-the-old-republic/originals/how-to-buy-pvp-gear-in-swtor

[DarkHelsing]

Ok let's stop for a second. There are less than 20,000 views of this thread. Let's take each view as a unique user and hope that it doesn't count users accessing the thread again after a new post as a new view. So that is less than 20,000 unique views. What percentage of 1,000,000 is 20,000? Help me with my math here.. that is .02... which is 2% right? So of 1,000,000 players we have 2% of the population that view this thread. We have 212 votes... so of the 20,000 people that viewed this thread we have 1% that voted.

 

It's late, my mind might be going at this point. So are we seriously arguing over the "voice" of 1% of 2% of the game population that voted in this thread? How exactly is this poll relevant again? Let's hope there are less than 1,000,000 players for the OP's sake. The lower the player population the better the poll will look.

 

I apologize if my math or logic are off at this point. I am tired and sadly this forum has been the best PvP of the night. Maybe I will come back tomorrow at work when I am more fresh.

 

Side note, I am really disappointed with how the population is declining in this game. Less than 50 people on the fleet since I have been on... come on.

 

WTB Server merges and cross server PvP before we worry about any more PvP balancing.

 

Have you ever taken a Statistics class before?

[DarkHelsing]

You can read the whole article if you want. You have way too much time on your hands anyway.

http://www.gamezone.com/products/star-wars-the-old-republic/originals/how-to-buy-pvp-gear-in-swtor

 

Way to much time. I'm on con-leave till I heal. But as it stands going from loving this game to not even wanting to log in any more... I don't want more reasons to not like the game.

[xxdragonragexx]

Way to much time. I'm on con-leave till I heal. But as it stands going from loving this game to not even wanting to log in any more... I don't want more reasons to not like the game.

 

Now i get it. Did you take your medicine or did you take too much medicine? HAHA!

[SkDush]

@ DarkHelsing

 

I know what your getting at, and it would be good. I loved the idea of orange gear and getting mods for it from planet comms. I did that all the way to 50, I have a lovely set of gear from all the different planets, quests etc that I like on my main, then at 50 it was pants as I couldn't use it anymore (50 gear is not very nice for my toon, I look like a power ranger). They almost got it bang on with that, but decided for whatever reason not to use it at 50. Although they are now putting it back in with augmented gear, it just costs alot for a casual player to get, unless you can make the gear yourself (biochem being king on a main makes it harder though)

 

The only issue I have with PvP and PvE gear being that same is that it would require the drawing board to be dusted off. However at the moment, the way they have tuned the OP's (which are a bit to easy IMO on HM, NM gives the same gear so not many bother with it but at least it's a chalange of sorts for the hardcore ) you would have say 2300 prim stat in the best PvE gear with stims, however in PvP gear with stims you would have 1800 (the stat for this example is cunning from Ops healer). To re-tune the OPs / PvP Dmg for the same stat would not be an easy task.

 

How about this one.

 

You do PvE / PvP, you do the normal grind for valor in PvP, some other stat in PvE. These stats give you access to different sets of cosmetic empty gear, lots of different types. By this I mean that a sorc say can buy heavy armor but the armor changes to light when it's put on / bought (which ever). Once you reach the required level for the set the gear is free.

 

You grind your comms / OPs tokens for the mods, 1 token / X comms gets you 1 mod. All of the mods can be bought from a vendor. The crafters are the only ones that can make the augments to keep the credits going around. The mods cost money to be put in taken out as they do now. (But you can just get another bit of the same empty gear for free for off sets)

 

For your starter set in both PvE / PvP you can get a set of ugly empty gear for free. The starter mods cost money to get and money to put into the gear. The ugly gear will make people want to grind valor / PvE equivalent.

 

This way if you want to PvE you use the tokens for the best PvE mods for your class and role, then when the OP is on farm mode while waiting for new content you can spend your tokens on the PvP mods, same for PvP, you PvP get your mods for PvP, then farm PvP to get the PvE mods while you wait for more WZ's, more cosmetic gear, other items they can put in that people would like.

 

I know this would not let you jump from one aspect of the game to another right away. But I think it would be an easier solution that to re-tune OPs, gear etc. I can't think of a good solution that would allow you to jump from PvE to PvP at the moment, without either a re-tune, or creating a situation where raiders could skip content if they wanted to.

[DarkHelsing]

@ DarkHelsing

 

I know what your getting at, and it would be good. I loved the idea of orange gear and getting mods for it from planet comms. I did that all the way to 50, I have a lovely set of gear from all the different planets, quests etc that I like on my main, then at 50 it was pants as I couldn't use it anymore (50 gear is not very nice for my toon, I look like a power ranger). They almost got it bang on with that, but decided for whatever reason not to use it at 50. Although they are now putting it back in with augmented gear, it just costs alot for a casual player to get, unless you can make the gear yourself (biochem being king on a main makes it harder though)

 

You mentioned something here that is also on my nerves. BW has stated many times that they want to make sure Players are not "forced" into any aspect of the game. They stated that in reference to LS and DS choices, and players being forced to go full on one path to get the better gear, and they stated it in reference to Crafting and that they wanted to remove BioChem and CyberTech as the only two rightful choices for PvPers. It upsets me because they state they want players to "have the freedom to pick what they want to do and not be forced into anything specific..." yet they clearly force players into PvP or PvE at level 50. On top of that, BioChem and CyberTech are still the two choices for PvPers.

 

The only issue I have with PvP and PvE gear being that same is that it would require the drawing board to be dusted off. However at the moment, the way they have tuned the OP's (which are a bit to easy IMO on HM, NM gives the same gear so not many bother with it but at least it's a chalange of sorts for the hardcore ) you would have say 2300 prim stat in the best PvE gear with stims, however in PvP gear with stims you would have 1800 (the stat for this example is cunning from Ops healer). To re-tune the OPs / PvP Dmg for the same stat would not be an easy task.

 

I am personally hoping for drawing board to come out. The reason being, 1-49 was a great and fun experience, then you get to level 50 and everything you've known and loved about the game gets slapped away from you. Pre 1.2 had it's problems, but those problems were exaggerated by patch 1.2 (imo).

 

How about this one.

 

You do PvE / PvP, you do the normal grind for valor in PvP, some other stat in PvE. These stats give you access to different sets of cosmetic empty gear, lots of different types. By this I mean that a sorc say can buy heavy armor but the armor changes to light when it's put on / bought (which ever). Once you reach the required level for the set the gear is free.

 

You grind your comms / OPs tokens for the mods, 1 token / X comms gets you 1 mod. All of the mods can be bought from a vendor. The crafters are the only ones that can make the augments to keep the credits going around. The mods cost money to be put in taken out as they do now. (But you can just get another bit of the same empty gear for free for off sets)

 

For your starter set in both PvE / PvP you can get a set of ugly empty gear for free. The starter mods cost money to get and money to put into the gear. The ugly gear will make people want to grind valor / PvE equivalent.

 

This way if you want to PvE you use the tokens for the best PvE mods for your class and role, then when the OP is on farm mode while waiting for new content you can spend your tokens on the PvP mods, same for PvP, you PvP get your mods for PvP, then farm PvP to get the PvE mods while you wait for more WZ's, more cosmetic gear, other items they can put in that people would like.

 

I know this would not let you jump from one aspect of the game to another right away. But I think it would be an easier solution that to re-tune OPs, gear etc. I can't think of a good solution that would allow you to jump from PvE to PvP at the moment, without either a re-tune, or creating a situation where raiders could skip content if they wanted to.

 

The main theme behind the suggestions I like, are all about having the freedom of choice. When you, as the player, were leveling you had the choice to level via PvP, or level via Quests, or level via grinding, or level via Flash Points, or level via Space Missions. You, as the player, had the choice to keep your gear, use what you liked the look of, modify it as how you sought fit. Everything I loved about this game was because of the freedom the players were given. The second the player hits level 50 they are punished by having all those freedoms of progression removed for them; now they have to pick an avenue and are no longer free to mingle in and out of the other areas.

 

That being stated, I am a fan of any system that gives back the player what they enjoyed while leveling 1-49, any system that gives the player the freedom of choice to progress in the game while not punishing them for their choice by not allowing them to mingle in the other areas as well. Any system that gives the players back the freedom that they grew accustom to while leveling 1-49, I am going to be a fan of more so than I am of Patch 1.2

[Cempa]

"It is not needed".

 

It is not divided equally, burst classes benefit more.

Edited May 16, 2012 by Cempa

[DarkHelsing]

updated

[xxdragonragexx]

blah it still got deleted.

[SkDush]

The only problem with being able to jump from PvE to PvP like you could pre 50 is that if you allow that without some distinction between PvP and PvE at 50 then people will not stay in the game,. As the only way you can do this to make it fair is to have purly cosmetic gear. While this is fine for PvP as it makes skill the deciding factor. If you do it for PvE all of the PvE players will quit after the first time they clear the OP. They will have no reason to ever do it again, they will leave until the next piece of content comes out, clear that and then leave again. With this you leave yourself open to those people choosing to play a different game which makes them grind gear for PvE. Raiders already stop playing once they have gotten all the best gear, they level alts, play another game or whatever until more content comes out. At the rate content is cleared in this game, taking the gear grind out of PvE people will play for 2 weeks after each content patch and since it takes a long time to create a new OP, this will cause dead servers (already happening) and in turn cause more people to leave .

 

In a game that has any PvE content this is a bad idea as it might aswel be a single player game if you clear it once and move on.

 

The only reason there was a stat boost pre 50 for PvP was so they could have a single bracket as they knew people would get to 50 faster than others and they wanted to keep as many of the power levelers as possible by letting them nuke lvl 10's whle they waited for the rest to hit max lvl. As soon as they had the numbers they seperated the brackets. If they had more people playing alts the brackets would be split even more.

[xxdragonragexx]

Oh boy, here we go again.

I can't wait for the reply or answer this time.

Edited May 16, 2012 by xxdragonragexx

[DarkHelsing]

The only problem with being able to jump from PvE to PvP like you could pre 50 is that if you allow that without some distinction between PvP and PvE at 50 then people will not stay in the game,. As the only way you can do this to make it fair is to have purly cosmetic gear. While this is fine for PvP as it makes skill the deciding factor. If you do it for PvE all of the PvE players will quit after the first time they clear the OP. They will have no reason to ever do it again, they will leave until the next piece of content comes out, clear that and then leave again. With this you leave yourself open to those people choosing to play a different game which makes them grind gear for PvE. Raiders already stop playing once they have gotten all the best gear, they level alts, play another game or whatever until more content comes out. At the rate content is cleared in this game, taking the gear grind out of PvE people will play for 2 weeks after each content patch and since it takes a long time to create a new OP, this will cause dead servers (already happening) and in turn cause more people to leave .

 

This isn't a problem that any suggestion would cause, this is a problem with Gear heavy progression based mmo's. So no matter how you cut that pizza, it's still a pizza. Raiders are already bored with this game and quitting. PvPers are already bored with this game and quitting. Players are quitting at such an alarming rate that BioWare has given out a free month of game time just to try and keep them playing while they work on new stuff to patch out. Players like this don't stay because they have two sets gear they can get because they must get both sets. Players divided are even more likely to produce these kinds of issues because if they dedicated any amount of time into one event and hit the gear cap, why would they care about the other event they didn't care enough to dedicate time to in the first place. So no, splitting the gear, making the gear the same, using any one of the other suggestions - this is still going to happen because it is a gear progression driven mmo.

 

People that stay to play, stay because they like playing the game, and that's the bottom line.

 

In a game that has any PvE content this is a bad idea as it might aswel be a single player game if you clear it once and move on.

 

The only reason there was a stat boost pre 50 for PvP was so they could have a single bracket as they knew people would get to 50 faster than others and they wanted to keep as many of the power levelers as possible by letting them nuke lvl 10's whle they waited for the rest to hit max lvl. As soon as they had the numbers they seperated the brackets. If they had more people playing alts the brackets would be split even more.

 

Not exactly. Back in beta the Devs stated that level 50's would have their own bracket, it was suppose to happen before launch. It was already known that level 50 Expertise Gear destroyed everything else in its path. Playing in beta this was clear and it was addressed that 50's would be separated... but just like Ranked WZs, it didn't happen on their projected date. Also, the Devs stated that 10-49 PvP is the most popular bracket, to the point they stated they are overwhelmed with the amount of players Queing for it and had to adjust their system (whatever that means). But point being here, people like pre-50 better then end game 50, and that's something they might want to look into.

Edited May 16, 2012 by DarkHelsing

[DarthKhaos]

What's the point of having an endless gear progression with stat advantages if those who are starting mostly get fed up with getting killed in 5 GCDs in a 1v1 and those who have all the gear are going to quit once they max their gear anyway? Maintaining a pvp player base off of gear progression worked for WoW, but I don't think going with the same endless gear grind is going to work again. People are tired of that system or they are playing the one they've been playing for the last 10 years.

 

Giving players the freedom to chose their stats with the moding system was one of the big sellers for the game. They already have to balance around it, so that is a moot point. In regards to getting everything for free: you could put progression around the mods, but that still leads to gear over skill matches which is why I hate expertise to begin with. I think PvP should be about skill vs skill, but that's just me.

Even though there is an "endless" gear progression for PvP you don't start at the lowest tier when starting as they include higher tiers. When 1.2 came out they gave you Recruit and made Battle Master easier to get. When the next tier of PvP comes out Let's call it Siege gear the Battle Master will now become the new buy for cash and War Hero easier to get. There's still progression to achieve without having players vastly outclassed gear wise. So no a new player isn't going to get face rolled in one or 2 hits.

 

I got no problem with giving players the freedom to chose their stats. Hell they should have the ability to buy mods (except of the armoring that give the set bonuses) with Ranked & non Ranked Warzone comms. However that does not change the fact that expertise is needed. If you want to take a little less expertise for more endurance that's your call but Expertise is important. Those who want expertise gone wants to do PvE PvE and more PvE then hop in PvP and face roll.

 

I've explained why there should be a separation. Mainly because of the dynamics of PvP vs PvE encounters, need for different rates of progression for PvP & PvE and differences in gear gaps between tiers for PvP & PvE.

Using the Basic, Intermediate & Advanced gear as an example of gear tiers here are some basic reasons why it is needed:

• PvP needs to have a shorter progression from Basic to Intermediate than PvE
  
• PvP needs to have a smaller gear gap between Basic & Intermediate also between Intermediate & Advanced than PvE
  
• PvE can have more than 3 tiers increasing the amount of progression players can experience
  
• PvE does not have to worry about random encounters with top tier required mobs
  
• PvP & PvE would not have to worry about balancing one to affect the other
  

[Jadescythe]

Just a couple points here while I'm checking in on the thread:

 

1) The problem with the poll is not that it has too few people (although it is still a little low for a player base of 1.3 million), the problem is that the poll is not representative of the population. Of all the people who play the game, there is a certain type of player that reads the forums and certainly a specific type of player who reads the PVP section of the forums. I think this poll is helpful, but certainly not definitive of how the game's population would vote. Either way, the poll's validity has no bearing on the topic being discussed, just a format to keep track of things overall.

 

2) Please stop talking about bolster. All it does is elevate your stats to put out the same level abilities that you would at end game, assuming everything else about you stayed the same. Your idea to make this system equal everyone out so that gear does not matter will detract from our ability to customize our characters' stats to play the way we'd like to. I may prefer to have more alacrity than someone else (just a random example) and if you use a bolster system to even out gear stats, this is no longer an option. Gear will always be the way to customize not only how we look, but also how we distribute our stats as well. Skill is not limited to clicking faster, it also has to do with playing your class properly and gearing your class in a way that elevates your playstyle.

 

Essentially, gear allows us to separate our character from another. If I go into a WZ as a sorc, how does the game know what I intend to do if it is ignoring my gear? I may be planning to heal, dps, or a combination of the two. Using a system similar to bolster, it is simply going to buff/nerf me based on my gear stats, but it might buff/nerf me in the wrong way and not help/hurt me at all.

 

3) Do you know why everyone is happy to play in the 10-49 wz queue? It is ridiculously easy. There are no premades and most people have no idea what they're doing. I've gone in there with level 12-13 alts that have like 7 abilities and been at the top of the charts. It's a place for people who are just starting to play, which is great for what it is. This is not representative of level 50 PVP in any way. If you feel like you were competitive before 50, are running in PUGs without at least full recruit gear, and complain about getting face stomped, then you have brought it on yourself. Even in my BM gear, the focus fire from a coordinated assault cannot be withstood and you simply don't see that prior to level 50.

[DarkDruidSS]

Just a couple points here while I'm checking in on the thread:

 

1) The problem with the poll is not that it has too few people (although it is still a little low for a player base of 1.3 million), the problem is that the poll is not representative of the population. Of all the people who play the game, there is a certain type of player that reads the forums and certainly a specific type of player who reads the PVP section of the forums. I think this poll is helpful, but certainly not definitive of how the game's population would vote. Either way, the poll's validity has no bearing on the topic being discussed, just a format to keep track of things overall.

 

2) Please stop talking about bolster. All it does is elevate your stats to put out the same level abilities that you would at end game, assuming everything else about you stayed the same. Your idea to make this system equal everyone out so that gear does not matter will detract from our ability to customize our characters' stats to play the way we'd like to. I may prefer to have more alacrity than someone else (just a random example) and if you use a bolster system to even out gear stats, this is no longer an option. Gear will always be the way to customize not only how we look, but also how we distribute our stats as well. Skill is not limited to clicking faster, it also has to do with playing your class properly and gearing your class in a way that elevates your playstyle.

 

Essentially, gear allows us to separate our character from another. If I go into a WZ as a sorc, how does the game know what I intend to do if it is ignoring my gear? I may be planning to heal, dps, or a combination of the two. Using a system similar to bolster, it is simply going to buff/nerf me based on my gear stats, but it might buff/nerf me in the wrong way and not help/hurt me at all.

 

3) Do you know why everyone is happy to play in the 10-49 wz queue? It is ridiculously easy. There are no premades and most people have no idea what they're doing. I've gone in there with level 12-13 alts that have like 7 abilities and been at the top of the charts. It's a place for people who are just starting to play, which is great for what it is. This is not representative of level 50 PVP in any way. If you feel like you were competitive before 50, are running in PUGs without at least full recruit gear, and complain about getting face stomped, then you have brought it on yourself. Even in my BM gear, the focus fire from a coordinated assault cannot be withstood and you simply don't see that prior to level 50.

 

Well said. I think you hit just about everything.

 

They aren't replacing expertise any time soon when they have much bigger problems to worry about like adding content and features that were already promised and figuring out how to deal with dwindling population problems that impact the game more than the expertise debate does.

[Renita]

My vote is not needed. If and only if they could use the bolster mechanic to equalize everyone in pvp, such that everyone was on the same playing field for their particular class. They could still give gear rewards, but it would be purely for cosmetics. After all, isn't pvp suppose to be about how well you play your class/spec and the objective, not how good your gear is.

 

However, if they can't equalize everyone's stats in pvp, I wouldn't change the way expertise works for another gear stat. I think it works fine as long as the people at least pick up recruit gear. You wouldn't go into a lvl 50 op or HM under geared, why would you go into a lvl 50 WZ with no expertise?

[DarkHelsing]

Just a couple points here while I'm checking in on the thread:

 

1) The problem with the poll is not that it has too few people (although it is still a little low for a player base of 1.3 million), the problem is that the poll is not representative of the population. Of all the people who play the game, there is a certain type of player that reads the forums and certainly a specific type of player who reads the PVP section of the forums. I think this poll is helpful, but certainly not definitive of how the game's population would vote. Either way, the poll's validity has no bearing on the topic being discussed, just a format to keep track of things overall.

 

That is not accurate. The number of voters is actually pretty good for a poll of a million subscribers. It's simple statistics, but not so simple if one has little knowledge about statistics. But you are right, it's not definitive, it's merely a snap shot that helps represent what is going on.

 

2) Please stop talking about bolster. All it does is elevate your stats to put out the same level abilities that you would at end game, assuming everything else about you stayed the same. Your idea to make this system equal everyone out so that gear does not matter will detract from our ability to customize our characters' stats to play the way we'd like to. I may prefer to have more alacrity than someone else (just a random example) and if you use a bolster system to even out gear stats, this is no longer an option. Gear will always be the way to customize not only how we look, but also how we distribute our stats as well. Skill is not limited to clicking faster, it also has to do with playing your class properly and gearing your class in a way that elevates your playstyle.

 

It's mentioned because it is a system in place that is capable of providing the PvP centric stat that people argue the Devs need to balance PvP and not mess with PvE. If the game needs Expertise for "class balance" than Bolster can be used to accomplish this without the need for Expertise.

 

Essentially, gear allows us to separate our character from another. If I go into a WZ as a sorc, how does the game know what I intend to do if it is ignoring my gear? I may be planning to heal, dps, or a combination of the two. Using a system similar to bolster, it is simply going to buff/nerf me based on my gear stats, but it might buff/nerf me in the wrong way and not help/hurt me at all.

 

Umm, Expertise is the same amount across all the WH sets, so how is that any different?

 

3) Do you know why everyone is happy to play in the 10-49 wz queue? It is ridiculously easy. There are no premades and most people have no idea what they're doing. I've gone in there with level 12-13 alts that have like 7 abilities and been at the top of the charts. It's a place for people who are just starting to play, which is great for what it is. This is not representative of level 50 PVP in any way. If you feel like you were competitive before 50, are running in PUGs without at least full recruit gear, and complain about getting face stomped, then you have brought it on yourself. Even in my BM gear, the focus fire from a coordinated assault cannot be withstood and you simply don't see that prior to level 50.

 

Nice to read your opinions on that, but that's not fact, it's your opinion. Unless you feel you speak for a million subscribers, including myself.

Edited May 16, 2012 by DarkHelsing

[DarkHelsing]

updated

[DarthKhaos]

You mentioned something here that is also on my nerves. BW has stated many times that they want to make sure Players are not "forced" into any aspect of the game. They stated that in reference to LS and DS choices, and players being forced to go full on one path to get the better gear, and they stated it in reference to Crafting and that they wanted to remove BioChem and CyberTech as the only two rightful choices for PvPers. It upsets me because they state they want players to "have the freedom to pick what they want to do and not be forced into anything specific..." yet they clearly force players into PvP or PvE at level 50. On top of that, BioChem and CyberTech are still the two choices for PvPers.

I think you're mixing things up here. BioWare has not forced players to PvP OR PvE. They can do both if they want. If they wish to PvP there is a path for that and if you wish to PvE there is a path for that also. There is no "God" path to allow for both. Jack of all and all that stuff. I know players who raid 3 nights and PvP 3 and who knows what they do on the 7th. Some PvP only to do the daily and PvE the rest. They make progress in PvP (at a slower pace) and Progress in PvE (at a faster pace) yet they are not forced to do anything they don't want to do. THAT is what BioWare meant. A player is not forced to do something they don't want to get something else. If they only want to PvP then they don't feel like they have to PvE to be able to PvP to their max potential and vice versa. The thing you are proposing will make players feel like they have to do both in order to keep up.

 

IMO that is WRONG!

[netskink]

Expertise is great, but the recruit gear is not.

[Jadescythe]

That is not accurate. The number of voters is actually pretty good for a poll of a million subscribers. It's simple statistics, but not so simple if one has little knowledge about statistics. But you are right, it's not definitive, it's merely a snap shot that helps represent what is going on.

 

As I noted, this is not important, but since you did not read what I said closely, just because you have a certain percentage of a population does not make your survey valid. As an overexaggerated example, what if I polled the population on their favorite companion character, but only males responded? Do you think the results would be skewed even if I got 10% of the community to vote? This is my point. You need a REPRESENTATIVE sample of the population, which was the point of my argument that you skimmed over.

 

 

It's mentioned because it is a system in place that is capable of providing the PvP centric stat that people argue the Devs need to balance PvP and not mess with PvE. If the game needs Expertise for "class balance" than Bolster can be used to accomplish this without the need for Expertise.

 

Not true. All bolster does is take my attack and put it on par with that ability at 50, nothing more. What you are suggesting is a completely different system that would do EXACTLY what expertise does already. What your true suggestion would be is to put expertise on all gear and have it be completely inactive during PVE. This would leave expertise in game and just call it something else in terms of the devs' abilitiy to control PVP without affecting PVE (which I am not opposed to as far as giving the devs control still is concerned).

 

Umm, Expertise is the same amount across all the WH sets, so how is that any different?

 

Yes, expertise is the same amount across all sets (which makes things very even no?), so your healing, damage, and protection % goes up equally, but it does not affect the stats of your gear in terms of crit, alacrity, surge, etc. So the gear that you come in with is still the gear you want it to be, but the expertise tweaks how potent your abilities are and lets you live longer than you would in PVE gear.

 

 

Nice to read your opinions on that, but that's not fact, it's your opinion. Unless you feel you speak for a million subscribers, including myself.

 

I will agree some of it is my opinion, but the fact remains that there are not groups of people regularly queuing up together in vent (or similar) for pre 50 WZs (fact). The competition is not the same as it is for the level 50 bracket (fact). I'm not saying that pre 50 WZs can't be enjoyable; I'm sure the more casual PVPer enjoys these more than level 50 (opinion). But it is a more casual setting, just like all of the content before level 50 and it is meant to be that way (opinion). There are no guilds rerolling toons to run premades in 10-49 and that is not opinion, it is fact (fact).

 

Expertise is still needed and still isn't going anywhere.

[DarkDruidSS]

Expertise is still needed and still isn't going anywhere.

 

Now he will link you to a site to try to explain to you how a poll works...

 

The only thing I would change about what you said is that with the current state of populations and pvp there are pre-mades rolling in 10-49 brackets. On my server there is a alt guild from one of our top end PvP guilds that rolls 49s bracket occasionally for laughs. There are less pre-mades in 49s bracket, but they do exist and some guilds are rolling pre-made alts just for giggles now on both sides of the server.

[Creedys]

VOTE: it is needed.

 

I want to clarify something about my post.

 

Expertise would not be needed if you gave me the best, top tier raiding gear for doing pvp. PVE players don't want that though.

 

That's not necessarily the issue, though you're on the right track. The issue isn't even about balancing classes; its about time invested.

 

If Expertise is removed, this is what can EASILY happen:

 

Timmy can get gear by spending weeks raiding, or he can get it in a few days by raiding AND PvPing. If Timmy has the time, he will do so because getting better gear faster makes him more viable in Raiding and/or PvP applications.

 

Hardcore PvPers would be forced to PvE to quickly gain their gear (as doing BOTH PvE and PvP would yield the fastest results for acquiring the best gear).

 

Hardcore PvEers would be forced to PvP to also gain their gear before they are made obsolete (as doing BOTH PvE and PvP would yield the fastest results for acquiring the best gear).

 

Do we see a pattern emerging?

 

It’s not just about hardcore players though (AKA people with a TON of time on their hands to play); it’s about people who have ZERO interest in a certain element of the game. I have ZERO interest in PvE in this game. I’ve never done a Nightmare thingy, nor have I done any hardmodes. I PvP. If expertise were removed, I would be FORCED into PvE if I wanted to remain competitive in the environment I dedicate myself to. The same is concordantly true of people who PvE and have ZERO interest in PvP.

 

Removing expertise caters to the player with the most time and the willingness to endure all of the game’s content. Having separate systems doesn't just make an attempt at balancing the stats, it also seeks to balance and control the rate people can earn gear and it rewards people that are dedicated to a certain element of the game.

 

Keep it.