Sorc/Sage DOTs A Waste?

[Midyir]

Currently I am using a full madness build on my sorc (0/10/31), which means I rely on my DOTs for damage. I use it for both PVP and PVE. I seem to do alright for damage, I am usually near the top for damage in my WZ. But a lot of people in the forum seem to think this build is a waste of time for pvp.

 

Are sage/sorc healers out there laughing at me as they cleanse my DOTs?

 

Can the other heal classes remove my DOTs as well?

 

How many pvp healers out there are paying attention enough to be cleansing all my DOTs?

[Darth_Philar]

You may be able to reach high damage numbers, but it is pointless damage. Since 1.2, the only thing that matters in PvP is burst. If you can't burst then your damage isn't contributing to the death of the enemy player.

 

It sucks, and it is wrong, but that's the way it is.

[Ntranced]

Topping damage charts in a WZ doesn't really mean anything. You can do 500k damage and kill no one, an Op/Mara/[insert any other DPS here] can do 160k damage and rack up 10 kills solo.

 

As for Sorc dots, they have their uses other than topping the damage charts. Principally dotting up your target(s) before you engage (force lightning advertises your squishy presence to anyone in sight) if you can. I tried madness after 1.2 and it was decent, if no real burst. I would death field for the bonus, throw instant dots, lightning for wrath proc, Crushing darkness, shock/force lightning/electrocute depending on opponent rinse repeat etc.

 

With the TTK the way it is (especially how easy it is to kill a sorc) you MUST get your DOTs on first, and preferably before you are engaged. Otherwise we tend to die too quick for the DoTs to really tick for anything significant.

 

Long fight (if there is such a thing anymore!) use your CC and speed to get distance and re-apply dots before going in again with the bigger dmg hits and instants from FL/Shock etc if you can.

 

If you want to actually kill anyone helps if you pop everything you have (surge, adrenal, relic, wz powerup) before you start mind you.

 

I mainly play heal spec though and I guess you would get better answers in Sorc class forum too.

Edited April 25, 2012 by Ntranced

[V-Serp]

I don't think it does enough damage personally, but even moreso, I find it a boring style. It doesn't help that there is no synergy with some of your other talents, such as whirlwind, and if you go hybrid with lightning/tele 2 of the CCs found there as well.

 

Everyone should probably be playing a Mara right now anyway however.

[Numerii]

I only consider the build a waste because it runs through Force rather quickly. Oftentimes, people are doing you a favor by killing you if you're in a fight that is dragging out and you don't get a break to Seethe or a healer pumping you with heals so you can use Consumption.

 

Furthermore, the build is only good at 1v1. In a group setting, you will fold quickly as soon as 2 people are on you.

 

I run 0/20/21. It's probably OP the amount of Force I have. I can sustain a rotation indefinitely and just as easily switch over to gimp heals if I feel the situation would be better approached by doing so. I also pack tons of CC and even though 2 or more people will kill me, they will usually have to dump CDs to do it quickly; otherwise, I'm going to kite them around a bit for sure.

[Midyir]

Topping damage charts in a WZ doesn't really mean anything. You can do 500k damage and kill no one, an Op/Mara/[insert any other DPS here] can do 160k damage and rack up 10 kills solo.

 

As for Sorc dots, they have their uses other than topping the damage charts. Principally dotting up your target(s) before you engage (force lightning advertises your squishy presence to anyone in sight) if you can. I tried madness after 1.2 and it was decent, if no real burst. I would death field for the bonus, throw instant dots, lightning for wrath proc, Crushing darkness, shock/force lightning/electrocute depending on opponent rinse repeat etc.

 

With the TTK the way it is (especially how easy it is to kill a sorc) you MUST get your DOTs on first, and preferably before you are engaged. Otherwise we tend to die too quick for the DoTs to really tick for anything significant.

 

Long fight (if there is such a thing anymore!) use your CC and speed to get distance and re-apply dots before going in again with the bigger dmg hits and instants from FL/Shock etc if you can.

 

If you want to actually kill anyone helps if you pop everything you have (surge, adrenal, relic, wz powerup) before you start mind you.

 

I mainly play heal spec though and I guess you would get better answers in Sorc class forum too.

 

That is pretty much exactly how I am playing right now, including the surges/adrenal (rakata, biochem)

 

I was hoping for feedback from all classes of heals which is why I put it here rather than the sorc forum.

[Shadenuat]

A lot of people in the forum seem to think this build is a waste of time for pvp.

I can't understand how, as this build can effectively slay anyone in a decent time, and you can do burst damage with your AoE and instant crush. Your 2 second root is an invaluable tool agains melee, as the instant lift, and with all relics/adrenals/crit skill, I usually AoE up to three targets 4K damage each, followed by throw and mind crush, a lot of characters tend to go down like sack of potatoes.

DoTs are also very, very, very good agains gunslingers/snipers.

 

Are sage/sorc healers out there laughing at me as they cleanse my DOTs?

Only place sorc/sages remember about their debuffs is Huttball, and a lot of them are so frustrated of dying in all the retarded ways by melee classes that they forget about it anyway. As a healer it's hard to do healing rotation now. Usually they would clean themselves if they are smart, though.

 

Can the other heal classes remove my DOTs as well?

With upgrade, healing scoundrel can remove mind DoTs, I think.

 

How many pvp healers out there are paying attention enough to be cleansing all my DOTs?

See above. The better of sages would clean Force Lift and it's sorc version, but imo that's it. Gameplay is so fast paced that it's hard to remember your debuffs.

[Astarica]

If people are really cleansing your dots then you wouldn't even be able to have high leaderboard numbers to begin with.

 

I find that 2 points of dot damage on leaderboard is about as useful as 1 point of regular damage on the leaderboard. That said some of your abilities feeds off dots so it's not like you can just not use them. Dotting everyone you see is probably not the best strategy, but it's at least better than not dotting anyone at all.

[LancelotOC]

You only cleanse yourself these days and anyone you see force type CCed. No time to fit cleanse in there in the place of an other heal.

[Midyir]

A lot of people in the forum seem to think this build is a waste of time for pvp.

I can't understand how, as this build can effectively slay anyone in a decent time, and you can do burst damage with your AoE and instant crush. Your 2 second root is an invaluable tool agains melee, as the instant lift, and with all relics/adrenals/crit skill, I usually AoE up to three targets 4K damage each, followed by throw and mind crush, a lot of characters tend to go down like sack of potatoes.

DoTs are also very, very, very good agains gunslingers/snipers.

 

Are sage/sorc healers out there laughing at me as they cleanse my DOTs?

Only place sorc/sages remember about their debuffs is Huttball, and a lot of them are so frustrated of dying in all the retarded ways by melee classes that they forget about it anyway. As a healer it's hard to do healing rotation now. Usually they would clean themselves if they are smart, though.

 

Can the other heal classes remove my DOTs as well?

With upgrade, healing scoundrel can remove mind DoTs, I think.

 

How many pvp healers out there are paying attention enough to be cleansing all my DOTs?

See above. The better of sages would clean Force Lift and it's sorc version, but imo that's it. Gameplay is so fast paced that it's hard to remember your debuffs.

 

Thanks, that is the kind of feedback I am looking for.

[Lugh]

You only cleanse yourself these days and anyone you see force type CCed. No time to fit cleanse in there in the place of an other heal.

 

Ill have to cry BS here, as if you are a sage healer and running for your life all game you only have 3 things that can be cast on the run, the Cleanse (which adds a decent heal and removal of physical effects as well), The bubble, and the Instant HoT. Everything else can't be cast while your Marauder fan club is following you about the map...

 

As most people are using some sort of DoT spec to lead the board at the end, that cleanse should be second in your save rotation, shield cleanse hot, and DO I HAVE TIME TO CAST ANYTHING ELSE? Or am I back to running for my life?

[LancelotOC]

He was asking how often cleanse is used and I said mostly on yourself .. we are saying the same thing.

[Kuvox]

After 1.2 I have been using a damage and healing parser (as is most of my guild) to see where my damage is coming from.

 

The average contribution DOTs have to my overall total damage is lower than I originally thought: 18%. Telekinetic throw accounts for 60% with the remaining mostly coming from AOE damage and project. This data has come from 72 games.

 

It's important to note that all of this varies widely, which is why, perhaps, a median number may be better to use. For example, in a Voidstar match last night I did 522k in damage but only 8% came from DOTs with 44% coming from AOEs (force in balance and forcequake). However, in the following huttball match 35% of my damage came from DOTs.

 

The 18% shouldn't have surprised me given how little the DOTS tick for anyway. Plus, I generally only use them when I get the instant cast mind crush. I just don't see them making much of an impact. My AOEs, particularly forcequake in Voidstar, seriously weakens a large number of targets, especially when I pop force potency, an adrenal, and a relic.

[JarenWelen]

I did not realise how much I underestimated DoTs until I rolled a Marauder a month or two ago; Annihilator spec relies on DoTs, and I found that when they stack they help to rip through opponents like butter.

 

Having tried Balance/Madness only on my Shadow, I have to say that personally I dislike it. However the reason I disliked it is because it felt far too...Sage-y. I think I would actually like it on a Sage character, where you have Weaken Mind to add to these, and the periodic heals will help see you through when you're struggling to pop your own heal off.

 

So I would say don't underestimate DoTs, I actually switched another of my character's specs to incorporate DoTs after my experience with them, and they are well worth the investment.

 

Just my thoughts.

 

-J

[urgha]

Dots are weak, consume lot of force, destroy your own cc - force lift. The one and only reason to play full madness for me - root with 9sec cd. It rocks.

Don't compare mara and sorc dots. Annih mara has more synergy with his dots than sorc.

[JarenWelen]

Dots are weak, consume lot of force, destroy your own cc - force lift. The one and only reason to play full madness for me - root with 9sec cd. It rocks.

Don't compare mara and sorc dots. Annih mara has more synergy with his dots than sorc.

 

I'm not comparing Marauder and Sorceror DoTs, I'm saying that Marauder DoTs showed me how useful they could be. Granted, that does not mean you would get the same results in other DoT-based trees in different classes; however having tried the DoT spec of both Scoundrel and Guardian after experiencing the effectiveness of an Annihilator Marauder, I certainly appreciate the usefulness of DoTs in the game and they should never be underestimated.

 

To say that DoTs are weak is narrow-minded, they are merely an alternative style of damage. This is like saying sustained damage in general is weak. Now yes, burst damage does play a more dominant role in PvP since 1.2, but sustained damage is just as important when working as a team, particularly against tanks.

 

Also, your argument on Force Lift is invalid, burst damage breaks it as well.

[Daellia]

Can the other heal classes remove my DOTs as well?

With upgrade, healing scoundrel can remove mind DoTs, I think.

 

None of our DoTs are Mental effects, they are all Force (which only Sorcs can cleanse).

[Onager]

DoTs add up over time (Specifically Weaken Mind/Affliction) and apply gradual pressures to the force healers on the other team in PVP who are faced with either burning GCDs and their Cleanse cooldown on removing them, or GCDs and Force in healing through them.

 

Problem is, a lot of healers are rerolling FOTM Scoundrels/Operatives to heal PVP now and they can't do **** all about them but heal through them. And, their resource is much more limited than Sorcs/Sages are. Do the math.

 

DoTs become significant if there's many sources generating them and few removing them, and, as if healers weren't already pressured in PVP enough as it was, adds one more thing to strain their situational awareness.

 

Use *********** DoTs.

[CedricDur]

I used to play a 31 madness sorc too. The damage as fine, I felt. Once we have all dots in and start on Force Lightning health bars melt. But it is true that in PvP, with fights that have strategical advantages, using the first five or six seconds simply putting down dots so that they can start ticking three seconds after that is not the most PvP efficient thing to do.

 

On the other hand I find we work great as snipers. Dot completely, throw Death Field, throw Shock. Heck, I even throw my slow for a bit more damage, and only then do I start Force Lightning, because it is only *then* that most people wake to the fact they are under attack. Not to mention it points at you.

 

What started to annoy me was how long the dots take to tick. I would prefer using more GCDs and cast more often, but have the dots every second, than fall asleep between dot ticks. Not only is three seconds a long delay be it on PvP or PvE, but it makes dots redundant since they take so long to tick that most fights in PvE end with the dot half way, and in PvP the damage contribution was negligible. I actually noticed my damage going up if I used less dots and focused more on Force Lightning.

 

Of course you can do a lot of pillar humping. I have some very nice memories of dotting a snipper and hiding behind a pillar in Voidstar while he waited for me to come out, and I only did to refresh the dots. It was lovely to watch them munch through his HP bar while he tried to outlive them.

 

But in the end I switched to 18/23 for a single reason: Force. Long fights = no force. Short fights, or fights with a lull = quick Seethe even if for just a few seconds. But huge lingering never stop fights like Voidstar and Aldeeran ended with me waiting for someone to kill me so I could get my full Force back (or slowly suiciding with the Sacrifice thingy skill).

 

18/23 for PvP just made more sense. The double dip makes me feel RAWR when it happens, the blind when my bubble bursts makes a mockery out of the stealthers that used to farm me (why yes, let me use my anti-CC to remove your opener. Okay, now you've done it again and my anti-CC is still on CC. Byeeee!) and the snare on Overload followed by Force Slow makes me grin when melee jump me. And my Force Bar may not even be there anymore, even with just one point in Effusion.

[Steele_dk]

Currently I am using a full madness build on my sorc (0/10/31), which means I rely on my DOTs for damage. I use it for both PVP and PVE. I seem to do alright for damage, I am usually near the top for damage in my WZ. But a lot of people in the forum seem to think this build is a waste of time for pvp.

 

Are sage/sorc healers out there laughing at me as they cleanse my DOTs?

 

Can the other heal classes remove my DOTs as well?

 

How many pvp healers out there are paying attention enough to be cleansing all my DOTs?

 

A good sorc would know to cleanse him self when engaged by another sorc. A bad one wouldnt.

 

So to that question it should be "Are good sage/sorc healers out there laughing at me as they cleanse my dots" Yes

 

Rest of questions covers the same ideology, good sorcs would also cleanse his teammates.

 

Basicly madness/balance tree has more utitily to offer than lighting/telekinesis, the instant cc is nice, the 9sec cd root is nice and the lil bit of healing you get back is nice.

 

However, the spec is slower to build up damage and i find it difficult often to make a substantial burst in dps in a short amount of time after your deathfield/force in balance has hit.

 

But basicly is all comes down to your playstyle.

 

Do you want to use dots, line of sight and extra control to beat your enemy or do you want to be a more turret based dpser that if left alone is a pain in the *** for enemies on the battlefield.

 

Up untill 1.2 i was full madness/balance and loved it, but now seing all my mods are standard again with alacrity on them (Crit/surge for madness/balance spec) i decided to go Lighting/telekinesis and yes, the burst dps is much greater and yes you leave your self much more vulnerable, but i feel im not actually dying more than i would expect being a turret

 

 

GL

 

- Steele, conqueror sorc

Edited April 26, 2012 by Steele_dk

[Steele_dk]

Also, your argument on Force Lift is invalid, burst damage breaks it as well.

 

He means that once you use a dot on someone you leave your self crippled out to use Force lift/whirlwind on the target for that duration as opposed to burst spells which often is not damage over time abilities and can therefore be stopped instantly and then you can apply cc.

 

Tho i suspect you already knew this but just followed the usual forum tone of pointing out "flaws" in other ppls post just to feel better about yourself. In any case look up imbecile in the dictionary.

Edited April 26, 2012 by Steele_dk

[TwitchWINs]

Tbh im one of the best sorc's on my server madness is a decently well rounded spec able to do a fair bit of burst but has way too many force issues for me to play it the way i play because im a very team oriented player im constantly using my extrication on CD to get people out of sticky situations throwing barriers out topping people off in losing fights healing ball carriers escorting them playing a temporary healer. As for the spec i play its 3/31/7 which is tbh a very underpowered spec lightning for the supposed cannon spec aint much of a cannon and it lacks the utility to kite as well as madness the only reason i play it is because i can be more of a team player with it, the only reason it is even half viable in 1v1 situations is because im a damn good sorc all other sorcs i see seem to just get smashed when playing lightning im almost always putting up the highest or second highest dmg in warzones aswell as getting 100-200k healing. Things id like to see happen for both specs

Madness:

1.some kind of talent which will give more force back on dots crit or even hit's if possible

2.the last talent is just horrible when fighting anyone good it needs dispel protection which might mean extra damage when dispelled a silence or maybe a debuff increasing dot and direct damage from that sorcerer by a decent % for the next few seconds

Lightning:

1.Talent placement needs to be changed Thundering blast should be switched with Polarity shift

2. Polarity shift should grant the next spell to be instant cast and give 20% alacrity for 7sec down from 10

This is all just some theory craft which i belive should be changed in how the game is atm because for being the glass cannon class of this game were not much of a cannon...Ty and cheers ps i wont even go into the healing spec lul its just a joke

[JarenWelen]

He means that once you use a dot on someone you leave your self crippled out to use Force lift/whirlwind on the target for that duration as opposed to burst spells which often is not damage over time abilities and can therefore be stopped instantly and then you can apply cc.

 

Tho i suspect you already knew this but just followed the usual forum tone of pointing out "flaws" in other ppls post just to feel better about yourself. In any case look up imbecile in the dictionary.

 

You suspect incorrectly on both counts, I have no underlying need to feel better about myself in a virtual environment consisting of strangers and was making my comment in complete sincerity; there is absolutely nothing in my post that would suggest otherwise. Your accusation and following attempt at insulting my intelligence was absolutely unprovoked and uncalled for and should you ever feel the need to grow up and treat me as if I were not merely a virtual presence but a human with emotions and feelings, I would appreciate an apology. In any case I suggest you rethink your view of interaction with other humans on the internet and remove this preconcieved notion that every other person out there is hell-bent on belittling others in subtle or otherwise undertones within their well-intentioned arguments. Your intolerance and haste to judge speaks volumes.

 

I did not take this usage of Force Lift/Whirlwind into consideration because it is not one that I use in my typical rotation; I reserve this ability for the start of a battle to remove one character whilst I dispatch others. I completely acknowledge that the approach you detailed, for a reprieve mid-combat, is one that would benefit from not having DoTs down on the target, and withdraw my comment to urgha on that particular point being invalid if that was indeed his meaning, though it was not made clear in his post at the time.

 

To the OP: firstly I apologise for the minor derailment to your thread above, and secondly, ultimately I would say that as far as PvE goes, you'll struggle to go wrong with DoTs in terms of their flexibility for varying NPC strength. In PvP you'll do fine if you're working in a well-functioning team, and still be a thorn in your opponents' sides if working alone. Keeping your enemy at range where possible is key here in order to give your DoTs maximum effectiveness. Ultimately, I always say that if you have fun, you're doing it right.

 

-J