bellok Posted April 25, 2012 Share Posted April 25, 2012 (edited) You can't compare changes that are typical of an MMO (what's going on with SWTOR) and what happened with SWG. CU and especially NGE were massive changes to the core of the game. It would be like turning SWTOR into a UO style of skill gain. What you fail to understand is the fact that Bio Ware did change the "core" of the game in a way, and shifted it to something else. Pre 1.2 healing was the "core" of pvp, not so much now. People say that a dps is more important now for pvp than a healer is, and I sadly agree with them. Healers are still important to some degree. CU, and NGE were actual overhauls of SWG, there is no going around that, however the overall underlying issue with those changes were the changes to the many professions in that game, and the massive nerfs that happened to them. Those changes turned off people overall with that game and consequently they started to **** can it. So yes you can in fact compare the two. The ui improvements to that game in CU and such were improvements I liked, however the nerfs to the professions were what killed me with that game. Once they made changes I found that I wasn't satisfied with the current profession I was in and so I had to make changes accordingly. I'm kind of burnt out with that type of game model, and that is FOTM model every 2-3 months. Edited April 25, 2012 by bellok Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lokai Posted April 25, 2012 Share Posted April 25, 2012 (edited) Spammable? Like Tracer Missile? I'll give you a strategy. As a juggernaut, the only efficient keep em close ability is Force leap. When you spot me, use your snare right away and hope my CC break is out (even if I have it you can still proceed). Do a tracer or 2 to get my armor down ASAP. This will make the rest of the fight easier. If I leap you, which 99% of the time I will, immediately knock me back (this shouldn't fill resolve). I'll be slowed and screwed for a few seconds, until I get 10+ meters closer to you just rip it (the slow helps). When I get 10 meters away from you I'll probably either try the choke+move in or force push and leap you again. If you played it right, I should be too low to catch up, since I still have the tracer debuff on. mean that move where they stand STATIONARY and cant move and snare wears off almost instantly? its same snare is on force lightning YOUR confusing a snare for a useful snare... let me give you a comparison from WoW because its game i know best... Good caster class Frost Mage: has frost bolt, a 10 second snare, attached to frost bolt, this reduces speed by 70-75% but requires a full 2.5 second cast time, talented it lasts a long duration and combined with a mages blink, ice block, and frost nova are valuable assets that allow a mage to deal with melee. as frost you got a ton of reliable long lasting snares but you gave up alot of damage in exchange for survivability! as arcane you have a spammable slow spell is 50% snare another GOOD snare also debuffs the enemy. In WoW the mage is most balanced caster simply because it has the tools to deal with classes like the warrior and rogue. Bad Caster class Warlock: while many may argue that the warlock is argueablly tougher then the mage, they really never played the class 9/10. Warlock has very little ability to keep enemy at bay, they rely much more on tanking or dropping the enemy before they get close. Only viable snare they have is a 30% snare which is ranged and spammable, while NOT terrible all melee snares are 50%, so they rely far more on pets to stun or CC enemy, or using high burst specs to kill enemy quickly, while affliction relies more on fact its going to die and take its enemy with it. This class has little to no viable escapes, and while demon tele helped some its still a clunky mechanic. Basically boils down to this... a good caster or ranged class in general... could also list hunter and its plethora of escapes and snares...but basic point is! WoW is one of the most balanced mmos do mostly to it existing a long time. But even it has design choices are baffling! a good range class needs ways to keep itself alive in pvp... a stationary CHANNELED! snare is terrible...its as bad as a stationary channeled stun(force choke)... channeled moves have there place but as a snare? no i'm sorry its horrible since 9/10 when you need that snare most is when you need to create distance not when you already have it...thus channeled snare goes away when spell ends! thus moment you need it most its not there... again ranged need something reliable to keep distance and atm they really don't have it.... going from a sorc to ana ssassin i see such a massive change in enjoyment level of the class. Sheerly because i'm not a sitting duck and have options... saddly both merc and sorc(who ironically have very very similar designs to point its earie) are severely lacking... Pehaps its because they can heal and devs fear of making an unkillable healer because never get touched...but then easy to deal with by placing snares higher in dps trees and adding a healing stance to healing classes(technically BH already has one). but no sorry ranged classes in general are in a terrible state right now...even the sniper/gunslinger while viable and strong are so reliant on either very high skill level, or having there team close at hand since they dont really have the tools to keep people away if they get focused on. All in all game needs work... anyone who doesnt see that is either blind or doesn't want there precious class nerfed... while i do believe wrath needed CL removed from it i also knew how much that would hurt the class because they lost there major burst which....was there real defense kill it before it killed you WHICH we cant really do all that effectively now. Moment we get focused by anyone its lights out. Edit: my general point here was that, melee is well designed in TOR and working pretty darn good save a few abilities here and there that feel useless or, have no part in a rotation(i hear maras have quite a few of these). They have nice gap closers, good damage, and lots of utility. Ranged on other hand need some serious work in there general core design... and lots of there trees need total overhauls. Edited April 25, 2012 by Lokai Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellok Posted April 25, 2012 Share Posted April 25, 2012 I dont think so try playing one and u will see it take more skill to be one then a distance auto lock on spamer and i can say this cos i play dual weilder sith and distance spaming sorcc and merc hybrid all are effective if played to what their job is to do of couse u should die when a strong saber weilder closes the gap point is i see a lack of TEAM WORK that is why most of u die 1 person cant beat a team the works as one Oh so you think that it's okay for your gap closer to span 30m's in any direction including from up to down in less than 1 second while at the same time not be subject to a push back, and then when a force run is started to have the ability to root that force run immediately completely getting rid of all possibilites to prevent you from closing the gap? So in other words you are unreasonable and dishonest. Got it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
otherworlder Posted April 25, 2012 Share Posted April 25, 2012 What are you talking about? Every ranged in this have has a knockback+stun+a mezz+a snare. Melee gets two gap closers at most and 1 of them is always talented If you're having trouble getting into melee range and staying there against a merc/commando right now, you're doing something wrong. It's child's play. Mercs have minimal, very unreliable CC on long cooldown that fill your resolve very quickly, they have zero roots, a couple of short distance knockbacks and a crappy unreliable snare. With the number of ranged/AE/spammable slows available to melee closing the gap doesn't even require a true gap closer be off CD. If you applied your slow early you only have to run a short distance to get right back in their face. If it's an arsenal merc it's even worse, he can't cast anything worthwhile to kill you while moving, so just wait until he stops to try and get off a tracer and you're standing on his toes again in no time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polebreaker Posted April 25, 2012 Share Posted April 25, 2012 I have a 50 guardian and a 50 sorc, pvp extensively on both. Have no issues with gap closing or keep away abilities wrt melee vs ranged. I can keep melee off me just fine on my sorc, and in fact find her bag of tricks can make her more survivable than the guardian in many situations (aka guardians have no escape tools at all.) And if you know what you are doing you can totally lock down my guardian and keep me away, as was described in an earlier post as an example (and god do I hate trying to deal with snipers...) Now shadows vs my sorc are a real pain, but you know what? It's a team game. Call for help. You cant beat everyone 1v1 all the time, so just adapt or die. One class can get the jump on you, you can jump on a different class. It's fine. Sorry OP, you are just wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellok Posted April 25, 2012 Share Posted April 25, 2012 I have a 50 guardian and a 50 sorc, pvp extensively on both. Have no issues with gap closing or keep away abilities wrt melee vs ranged. I can keep melee off me just fine on my sorc, and in fact find her bag of tricks can make her more survivable than the guardian in many situations (aka guardians have no escape tools at all.) And if you know what you are doing you can totally lock down my guardian and keep me away, as was described in an earlier post as an example (and god do I hate trying to deal with snipers...) Now shadows vs my sorc are a real pain, but you know what? It's a team game. Call for help. You cant beat everyone 1v1 all the time, so just adapt or die. One class can get the jump on you, you can jump on a different class. It's fine. Sorry OP, you are just wrong. not sure if serious....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerain Posted April 25, 2012 Share Posted April 25, 2012 If you're having trouble getting into melee range and staying there against a merc/commando right now, you're doing something wrong. It's child's play. Mercs have minimal, very unreliable CC on long cooldown that fill your resolve very quickly, they have zero roots, a couple of short distance knockbacks and a crappy unreliable snare. With the number of ranged/AE/spammable slows available to melee closing the gap doesn't even require a true gap closer be off CD. If you applied your slow early you only have to run a short distance to get right back in their face. If it's an arsenal merc it's even worse, he can't cast anything worthwhile to kill you while moving, so just wait until he stops to try and get off a tracer and you're standing on his toes again in no time. I was stating they should use their tools instead of crying. They are there. And he's Pyro, learn to kite? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anbokr Posted April 25, 2012 Share Posted April 25, 2012 Sorcerers have the most utility/variety/kiting mechanisms of any class in the game with nice damage. Snipers are probably the burstiest class in the game at 30+ yards and are uninterruptable, unchargable, and have an awesome root, stun, and knockback. Free casting mercs are probably the most dangerous class in the game being able to hit full BM targets for 6k+. They are also pretty tanky with their knockback and 15s shield (healer mercs just pop this and are in god mode). I don't see the problem. Sure, you can argue that melee has stronger defensive CDs and harder hitting abilities, but this is because they are melee. They need the defensive CDs just like you need your knockbacks/roots/30+ ranged damaging abilities. Their abilities might give more bang for their buck but that's because ranged dps optimal uptime is 100%, melee are constantly fighting to simply get in range to do damage. TLDR: Ranged have more utility/kiting mechanisms to counter melee and the ability to attack from 30+ yards. herp derp. Melee get more bang for their buck on damaging abilities and have better defensive cooldowns in order to counter ranged bombardment. herp derp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellok Posted April 25, 2012 Share Posted April 25, 2012 I was stating they should use their tools instead of crying. They are there. And he's Pyro, learn to kite? Kiting only works against 1 melee generally, and how do you kite something exactly when your healing, and dps ranges are 30m's when their gap closer is about that range as well. Yes hybrid sors/sages can have a further dps range, but I am a full spec healer. Not to mention there are 2-3 of these melees with that gap closer that only attack the healers, and nothing else really. There are in fact dedicated melees who make it their point to attack me, and only me in a wz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lokai Posted April 25, 2012 Share Posted April 25, 2012 (edited) Sorcerers have the most utility/variety/kiting mechanisms of any class in the game with nice damage. Snipers are probably the burstiest class in the game at 30+ yards and are uninterruptable, unchargable, and have an awesome root, stun, and knockback. Free casting mercs are probably the most dangerous class in the game being able to hit full BM targets for 6k+. They are also pretty tanky with their knockback and 15s shield (healer mercs just pop this and are in god mode). I don't see the problem. Sure, you can argue that melee has stronger defensive CDs and harder hitting abilities, but this is because they are melee. They need the defensive CDs just like you need your knockbacks/roots/30+ ranged damaging abilities. Their abilities might give more bang for their buck but that's because ranged dps optimal uptime is 100%, melee are constantly fighting to simply get in range to do damage. TLDR: Ranged have more utility/kiting mechanisms to counter melee and the ability to attack from 30+ yards. herp derp. Melee get more bang for their buck on damaging abilities and have better defensive cooldowns in order to counter ranged bombardment. herp derp. Think your missing the point... people arent so much complaining that melee are good its more that ranged seem to be poorly designed. Compared to other mmos where i can jump on a ranged class and effectively keep myself away from an enemy using various tools such as snares, roots, and CC that are ALWAYS there 9/10 ranged in TOR do not have this... they rely fully on there team to help them out of every situation. Seriously we arent asking for much just a reliable snare that doesn't root us in place...thats all ranged need...just something to rely on...but ya know on that same token! most melee should be sporting a snare of some kind as well not sure they all do... Edit: to put it into simplier terms...for every action there must always be an equal reaction...if you ever have a situation where is no way to " escape " or " get away" that class is flawed...and should be looked at. That is basically situation as of now. When a melee snares you, your boned...because your never getting away and you CAN'T answer that attack with anything because he can keep his snare on you longer then you can him that is a problem... Edited April 25, 2012 by Lokai Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grifin Posted April 25, 2012 Share Posted April 25, 2012 Yeah.. now range classes complain that meele got soem chance. Play your class properly since 1.2.. adapt and it will be fine... You cant have it simply... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
otherworlder Posted April 25, 2012 Share Posted April 25, 2012 Sorcerers have the most utility/variety/kiting mechanisms of any class in the game with nice damage. Snipers are probably the burstiest class in the game at 30+ yards and are uninterruptable, unchargable, and have an awesome root, stun, and knockback. Free casting mercs are probably the most dangerous class in the game being able to hit full BM targets for 6k+. They are also pretty tanky with their knockback and 15s shield (healer mercs just pop this and are in god mode). I don't see the problem. Sure, you can argue that melee has stronger defensive CDs and harder hitting abilities, but this is because they are melee. They need the defensive CDs just like you need your knockbacks/roots/30+ ranged damaging abilities. Their abilities might give more bang for their buck but that's because ranged dps optimal uptime is 100%, melee are constantly fighting to simply get in range to do damage. TLDR: Ranged have more utility/kiting mechanisms to counter melee and the ability to attack from 30+ yards. herp derp. Melee get more bang for their buck on damaging abilities and have better defensive cooldowns in order to counter ranged bombardment. herp derp. Again I say, play both before you make sweeping generalizations. Pre 1.2, arsenal mercs fit your description well. The only thing they did best was ranged mega-burst, so it made sense that a melee should be able to lock them down and counter them. Left alone to freecast they were walking nukes, and massive spike damage was their only useful defense/role. Post 1.2 this is simply no longer the case. Tracer missile now hits like a nerf dart and HSM was stealth nerfed to a significant drop in damage, making Arsenal mercs far from the king of burst these days. Everything they do also demands a long cast time and stationary rotation which is effortlessly broken by interrupts/cc. They have no utility of any kind, and overall worse spike damage than many other dps classes in pvp, especially melee which can fire off their burst on the run and with mostly instant casts. How is this balanced to you? And to whomever said "learn to kite" in respect to pyro mercs (or ranged dps in general), I'm going to assume that was insincere? Kiting doesn't really exist in this game in any meaningful form, and if a melee is smart enough to use his slows at all, you're simply not getting away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellok Posted April 25, 2012 Share Posted April 25, 2012 Yeah.. now range classes complain that meele got soem chance. Play your class properly since 1.2.. adapt and it will be fine... You cant have it simply... Roffles, speak of adapt or die, when you yourself had it handed right to you on a silver platter. Hint, melee never had a hard time killing sorcs/sages unless they were stupid, and all implications do apply here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lokai Posted April 25, 2012 Share Posted April 25, 2012 Yeah.. now range classes complain that meele got soem chance. Play your class properly since 1.2.. adapt and it will be fine... You cant have it simply... YOU do realize that... Assassin hybrid is next on chopping block... Marauders are now kings of pvp so probably be on same chopping block... Jugg immortal/veng will also probably end up on chopping block melee is so strong now its foolish not to think they arent going to get a massive nerf hammer in 1.3... if they don't it'll shock me. Oh i did adapt =D i have an assassin i'm playing now!(course i was playing it before 1.2....) till they fix range properly =3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viciouskillr Posted April 25, 2012 Share Posted April 25, 2012 They all seem to have sOOOOO many gap closers and they hit like trucks. As a BH merc pyro spec I can jet boost, then they close the gap. I then hit them with elecro dart and they trinket out. Concussion missle takes about 2 hours to cast, so they just interupt. Then I'm at the med center running back to an objective - rinse and repeat. Don't get me wrong, I can do decent damage with my spec and gear, but melee seem to have every counter to what I throw at them - don't forget they have more burst too. I would love to see something to help keep the gap (distance) from them bigger. A disengage would be very nice. There just doesn't seem to be a nice balance between melee and ranged right now. The pendulum seems to be in favor of melee. mercs are a support class, marauders are a 1v1 class. Team up with another ranged and alternate pushbacks and stuns and you can take on multiple melee. Also purge your dots as that is a huge chunk of marauder damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellok Posted April 25, 2012 Share Posted April 25, 2012 mercs are a support class, marauders are a 1v1 class. Team up with another ranged and alternate pushbacks and stuns and you can take on multiple melee. Also purge your dots as that is a huge chunk of marauder damage. Yeah because there is only 1 marauder in a warzone.......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrunkShizzle Posted April 25, 2012 Share Posted April 25, 2012 The pendulum seems to be in favor of melee. well look at how bioware adjusts classes they sure did a bang up job on operatives/scoundrels.id be scared to think how badly they would ruin melee dps if they actually had to adjust every melee class and not just 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellok Posted April 25, 2012 Share Posted April 25, 2012 well look at how bioware adjusts classes they sure did a bang up job on operatives/scoundrels.id be scared to think how badly they would ruin melee dps if they actually had to adjust every melee class and not just 2 This is exactly why I refuse to grind another lvl 50 character, who knows where their heavy hand lands next? I guess the only good thing about this game is you can grind up the 8 different classes and never worry about it again......No thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polebreaker Posted April 25, 2012 Share Posted April 25, 2012 Edit: to put it into simplier terms...for every action there must always be an equal reaction...if you ever have a situation where is no way to " escape " or " get away" that class is flawed...and should be looked at. That is basically situation as of now. When a melee snares you, your boned...because your never getting away and you CAN'T answer that attack with anything because he can keep his snare on you longer then you can him that is a problem... No, I just disagree. Not every class has a get out of jail free button. That's part of the choice you make when you choose a class. Some classes are designed to kill the one you picked, while yours is designed to kill a different class. Rock, paper, scissors. In almost every mmog there are classes that, if they get in a bad spot, simply die. That's it. In this game, almost every class has an escape tool, but not all do and not from all situations. Sorry you cant handle getting snared, I dont know why you cant use one of the 10 jillion cc abilities that exist in the game, surely your class must have gotten one or two. And if it didnt, then you picked the wrong class, reroll into something more survivable if dying annoys you so much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerain Posted April 25, 2012 Share Posted April 25, 2012 Kiting only works against 1 melee generally, and how do you kite something exactly when your healing, and dps ranges are 30m's when their gap closer is about that range as well. Yes hybrid sors/sages can have a further dps range, but I am a full spec healer. Not to mention there are 2-3 of these melees with that gap closer that only attack the healers, and nothing else really. There are in fact dedicated melees who make it their point to attack me, and only me in a wz. Yup. Killing healers is priority 1. It always is and always should be for all pvp'ers. healers > squishies > heavies. How it goes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellok Posted April 25, 2012 Share Posted April 25, 2012 Yup. Killing healers is priority 1. It always is and always should be for all pvp'ers. healers > squishies > heavies. How it goes. I honestly agree with you, and understand why you do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrantyJPS Posted April 25, 2012 Share Posted April 25, 2012 Its the same as hunters in wow, they always complained and were told to l2p, yet it took removal of deadzone, a new jump backwards move and running channeled casts to lift them from coming dead last in every season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rsomazzi Posted April 25, 2012 Share Posted April 25, 2012 The facts are BW really wants team play, its good for business. I usually PUG with my Sentinal and if I draw a bad group I get stunned, stabbed, electricuted and blown to bits. But if I get a team that backs each other up, we can dominate. It happens even when your not in a premade. I'm looking to get in a premade, but until then its the luck of the draw. Lev 50 hybrid Sent. Valor 69 MZL So explain how saber toting tanks who can mitigate damage also put out ridiculous numbers? Wasn't it supposed to be that all classes had a balanced combination of strengths and weaknesses? I play a Commando, and the weaknesses of my class are pretty damn clear. I have NO tools to mitigate interrupts while my main dps ability is CASTED. Big hole here. I've stopped counting the times in the same warzones that I've been chain interrupted since 1.2. I have to SIT STILL to cast. There's another hole. I have next to nothing to mitigate incoming dps. I see the gross class imbalances whether in team play or 1v1. A Jugg or Marauder jump me, with all the CC and tricks they get and before I am able to do anything in return, I am down a third of my health. I have to sit still to cast, so I try that. Nope, interrupted. Try again and by now I am less than half. Now consider a warzone. Same thing happens only faster since TTK has gone through the floor. Add into this 1.2c where Bioware decides to nerf Commando's Demo Round a nice 25% across the board. I played last night to see this ability made a huge step close to useless. It hits for far less, it crits for far less, and my class was struggling to begin with. But they decide to give other classes every @#$%ing tool a class CAN have? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Srooc Posted May 5, 2012 Author Share Posted May 5, 2012 BUMP till fixed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Eternal- Posted May 5, 2012 Share Posted May 5, 2012 They all seem to have sOOOOO many gap closers and they hit like trucks. As a BH merc pyro spec I can jet boost, then they close the gap. I then hit them with elecro dart and they trinket out. Concussion missle takes about 2 hours to cast, so they just interupt. Then I'm at the med center running back to an objective - rinse and repeat. Don't get me wrong, I can do decent damage with my spec and gear, but melee seem to have every counter to what I throw at them - don't forget they have more burst too. I would love to see something to help keep the gap (distance) from them bigger. A disengage would be very nice. There just doesn't seem to be a nice balance between melee and ranged right now. The pendulum seems to be in favor of melee. Just hang up your merc bro....Merc is broken and has no survivability whatsoever any longer (even though you have heavy armor). I had to stop playing mine because it is simply a liability in warzones currently. Melee is king. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts