Sniperrecon Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 As far as the idea of force choke being a "dark side" power, it's true that the power itself is not what determines it, but the use. However, consider that force choke, by its very nature, would only have the use of torture, inspiring fear, and killing in a very painful manner. Really, the same with force lightning. That's why Jedi tend to not use them. It's not that they're evil in and of themselves, but they're only real purpose would be evil really. In the case of Luke in Jabba's palace, he could have simply made the guards sleep or mind tricked them. Perhaps he wasn't strong enough to, but either way, he did the equivalent of placing his hands on their necks and strangling them. It's hard to argue that that was a "good" alignment choice. I agree. He coulda used force push to knock them out , or pursuade like others said. To choke is to torture tho , and to torture is evil. I still say he was teatering between light/dark and thus the inconsistiency of force use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sniperrecon Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 Still, by the time his mother died, Palpatine had already sunk his claws deep in Anakin's mind. Anakin's 'weakness' was likely nurtured by Palpatine over the years, poisoning him by promoting the notion that the Jedi feared his potential, that they were holding him back, that they were jerks for not rescuing his mother from slavery... well, maybe not that last one, as it'd open up Anakin to asking the Chancellor to do something about that himself! Granted Palpatine would probably have a 'Tatooine's Hutt-controlled so my hands are tied, the bureaucracy would never allow it' excuse at the ready. Anyway, the point stands that Anakin's visions of Padme dying in childbirth likely WOULD NOT HAVE HAPPENED if Palpatine hadn't been influencing him for so long (if Palpatine wasn't using the Force to give Anakin the nightmare visions in the first place!)! And Padme's life was only in peril in those visions because Anakin was gonna choke her and break her heart & will to live (poorly executed tho it was). If Anakin had not fallen to the dark side, had not joined the Sith, then Padme would've never been betrayed & nearly choked to death by him, and she'd have deliver the babies just fine and lived to raise them. I see what your saying and it makes sense...but , its not completely fair. Put it this way. If Qui Gon Jinn woulda taken Ani's mom with them he woulda never gone down that path with the Tuskens... If the Jedi woulda stoped slavery... If the Jedi woulda let Jedi marry... Those 3 things right there woulda kept Ani from going down the dark path faster (and maybe not at all , who knows.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jarjarloves Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 (edited) But now your making stuff up and assuming. We don't know how it would have turned out if Luke would have stayed. Han may have stayed as a wall mount untill Leia came to rescure him (and you know she would have) There was already a plan by Lando to rescue Leia. The Endor assualt might not have been needed if Luke had finished his training. Vader might have searched him out and Luke might have turned him w/o a battle. Still , by going , Luke riskes the Galaxy out of emotion (like Ani did, a step in the direction of the darkside) and he changed nothing by going. Han is still a wall mount , he didn't rescue Leia , or even help (and in fact put her at greater risk because she has to go back for him) and Lando was gonna join anyways cause of what the Empire did to him. And he only learns something that can and will hurt him later. Vader is Daddy. Leia is sister (btw , does anyone find it funny we talk of canon this and canon that , but in RoTJ Yoda mentions there is another , like Ben had no idea he had a sister?) If he didn't know these facts , killing Vader would have been easier , and knowing Leia was his sister put her at risk (and hisself) at the end. We get the same thing when he goes to the palace. He riskes his life and that of Leia by even being there as part of the plan (i think a couple of Marines woulda been easier) but the thing is Luke never knows that he is risking the fate of the galaxy. That is the key piece of information. It's not like Harry Potter where he is told he is the chosen one. Luke is just a cog in a giant machine. Also it's Empire where Yoda mentions there is another. Look we covered all of this and you are just jumping in. You really should read all of it so we don't have to repeat ourselves. We DO know what would have happeend if Luke stayed Lando would have never joined as he and Leia would have been captured and so on because R2D2 wouldn't have been there. It's a whole thing that has alreeady been disssucsed. oh and the Thrawn trilogy isn't canon because Lucas has said nothing after ROTJ is considered canon. Edited April 30, 2012 by jarjarloves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilhares Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 When watching the scene from SW6, when Luke enter Jabbas throneroom to negotiate for cpt Solo; is Luke under dark side influences?Short, simple answer? Yes. While he did end up changing it, throughout the majority of production the working movie title was Revenge of the Jedi, the crew had the t-shirts with that emblazoned on it (same style as later 'Return' shirts), and they even had a promo trailer whipped up under that heading. As revenge is much more a dark-side kind of thing, the answer is obvious. Over the years, though, King George has said and done a number of contradictory things. Though I was young, I remember well an interview given on the topic (of the films) and he had stated that he planned a trilogy of trilogies, where he would do the prequel trilogy, and then the final three. Once he started working on Episodes 1-3, he certainly changed his tune. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhyltran Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 but the thing is Luke never knows that he is risking the fate of the galaxy. That is the key piece of information. It's not like Harry Potter where he is told he is the chosen one. Luke is just a cog in a giant machine. Also it's Empire where Yoda mentions there is another. Look we covered all of this and you are just jumping in. You really should read all of it so we don't have to repeat ourselves. We DO know what would have happeend if Luke stayed Lando would have never joined as he and Leia would have been captured and so on because R2D2 wouldn't have been there. It's a whole thing that has alreeady been disssucsed. oh and the Thrawn trilogy isn't canon because Lucas has said nothing after ROTJ is considered canon. According to Lucas anything that isn't the movies or by him isn't Canon. Lucas considers the entire EU a separate universe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sniperrecon Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 but the thing is Luke never knows that he is risking the fate of the galaxy. That is the key piece of information. It's not like Harry Potter where he is told he is the chosen one. Luke is just a cog in a giant machine. Also it's Empire where Yoda mentions there is another. Look we covered all of this and you are just jumping in. You really should read all of it so we don't have to repeat ourselves. We DO know what would have happeend if Luke stayed Lando would have never joined as he and Leia would have been captured and so on because R2D2 wouldn't have been there. It's a whole thing that has alreeady been disssucsed. oh and the Thrawn trilogy isn't canon because Lucas has said nothing after ROTJ is considered canon. I did read all of it , so not jumping in. I've posted in here on this topic already. Yoda does tell him its his fate to face Vader and defeat him. Vader is the guard dog of the Empire and for Luke to not know that defeating Vader = freeing the Galaxy and for him to squander that possibility means you gotta think Luke is completely dumb. We can say that w/o R2D2 the MF wouldn't have gotten fixed , but thats also conjection. Even w/o HD getting fixed , they had the jump on Vader and his forces and would have gotten away. They were half way off planet and not a single Tie near them. It wasn't till they HAD to go back and rescue Luke that they had Tie fighters on them. Vader had enough time to get to the SatrDestroyer as well , which amounts to alot of time Luke was hanging around and the Leia coulda used to get away. Thrawn Trioligy is not G-canon , your right , but its C-canon. It counts as well , just as much as G-canon does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jarjarloves Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 I did read all of it , so not jumping in. I've posted in here on this topic already. Yoda does tell him its his fate to face Vader and defeat him. Vader is the guard dog of the Empire and for Luke to not know that defeating Vader = freeing the Galaxy and for him to squander that possibility means you gotta think Luke is completely dumb. We can say that w/o R2D2 the MF wouldn't have gotten fixed , but thats also conjection. Even w/o HD getting fixed , they had the jump on Vader and his forces and would have gotten away. They were half way off planet and not a single Tie near them. It wasn't till they HAD to go back and rescue Luke that they had Tie fighters on them. Vader had enough time to get to the SatrDestroyer as well , which amounts to alot of time Luke was hanging around and the Leia coulda used to get away. Thrawn Trioligy is not G-canon , your right , but its C-canon. It counts as well , just as much as G-canon does. If you read all of it then you would know we already talked about all of that. remeber they wouldn't have been able to open the doors with out R2D2. But even if they got off the planet there was still several star destroyers already in orbit waiting to pick up the MF. A MF without HD can't escape a couple of Star Destroyers. Even if they got a couple days head start a SD could catch them. as for Luke Yoda only says that a fully trained Jedi can win against Vader he says NOTHING about saving the universe. Also Luke doesn't defeat the Emperor and even if Luke did fall to the darkside on the Death Star the Death star still woudl have been destroyed as the shield was already down when he decided to not give in and the MF was already on its way inside the Death Star to blow it up. Again how is defeating Vader free the Universe??? just because he is the Emperor's main man he in no way would mean the end of the Empire. It's not like he said oh no Count Dooku is dead I guess I should give up on being evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prophanicus Posted September 15, 2012 Author Share Posted September 15, 2012 (edited) also, the entire thing about return of the jedi was about luke sorta almost turning darkside. i find it really odd you're bringing up a pretty minor bit in jabbas palace. but not the part where luke FREAKS OUT and rage attacks vader at the end. beating him into submission out of pure anger, hatred and rage. then you get that powerful moment where luke looks at his robotic hand and realizes he's turning into his father, so he stops himself. did you miss that scene or something? pay attention next time.... I asked about Jabbas palace, not the final duel. I was curious about Lukes dark/light transgression in that particular stage of the movie, not the scenes after that. Pay attention next time... Edited September 15, 2012 by Prophanicus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macheath Posted September 16, 2012 Share Posted September 16, 2012 Luke was acting aggressively, sure. I don't think he showed anything in those scenes that would start him down the "dark path" Yoda talks about in ESB, though. Luke makes a decision that he can't just sit by and watch others suffer. He takes action to try to help those he cares about, as well as the entire galaxy. Now, that aggression and headstrong nature end up taking him close to the dark side, constantly tempting him to start down that path. He's not being particularly responsible with his use of power (threatening to destroy Jabba, etc) but ultimately everything works out, and he finds a balance where he can at least use his passion for good (to save his father) even if he fails to fully control those emotions. -Macheath. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liquidacid Posted September 16, 2012 Share Posted September 16, 2012 you people are reading to much into it... at that time Luke barely had any formal training and what he did have was rushed... he was still figuring the **** out... he didn't have the classical jedi training from youth or a master hanging around 24/7 to guide him or anything... what he did at Jabba's palace wasn't orthodox jedi tactics but it wasn't really dark side either because he didn't actually due anything "evil"... I honestly don't even know where he got off calling himself a Jedi Knight when he had less training and knew less than most of the padawan learners in the old republic era did as far as the force persuasion goes while not usually a first resort it is far from a last one... violence is the last resort... tricking someone through force persuasion is always better for a jedi that doing it with violence... hell Obi-wan was waving his hand at lowly stormtroopers the second they talked to him... your telling me with all his years of experience he had no other option to attempt first? of course he did but force persuasion was the quickest easiest one and didn't involve violence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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