Dark side Luke in RotJ movie?

[LeeC]

I was always a fan of the fact that there are no light side dark side specific force powers. The light side calls on the force and the dark side twists it. Its also all in a manner of how you use the power. If you force choke someone to make them unconcious your fine, if you do it to kill and sufficate them then thats dark right there.

[Revelationjp]

So a creator of a franchise, shouldn't have control over what goes on? To the other point, relationships not leading to the darkside huh?....Well I know of two that their relationships did lead them to the darkside.

 

Qui-gon and Anakin, now Qui-Gon didn't fall to the darkside mind you but it was a close call and he pulled himself back. The relationships don't lead to the darkside, per-say but rather what leads to the darkside in relationships is what happens within them. Notice how with Anakin, he seems perfectly fine with Padme, he is going to have a child, everything seems to be going well for him...and then what happens? He starts getting visions, of seeing Padme dying, that is what sent him down his dark path wanting to save her.

 

So its more of the consequences in the relationship, that can happen rather then just the relationship itself that can lead one to the darkside.

You're kinda proving my point for me here. It wasn't his relationship that led to his fall, it was his lust for power. In his arrogance, he felt that he, alone in all of the universe, should never have to deal with the death of his loved one, and thus sought the power to prevent it. Then also in arrogance, fell for the lies of Palpatine, who led him to believe he could teach him to stave off death. It could even be argued that if the Jedi had sanctioned his marriage to Padme, he could have gone to the council with his visions and concerns, and his fall would never have happened.

 

As for your point about the creator of the franchise having control, I would normally agree, but in the case of 30+ yrs of expanded universe, in which LA has has veto power on everything with the SW name, regardless of what he says, the SW lore is much bigger than Lucas today.

[Wolfninjajedi]

You're kinda proving my point for me here. It wasn't his relationship that led to his fall, it was his lust for power. In his arrogance, he felt that he, alone in all of the universe, should never have to deal with the death of his loved one, and thus sought the power to prevent it. Then also in arrogance, fell for the lies of Palpatine, who led him to believe he could teach him to stave off death. It could even be argued that if the Jedi had sanctioned his marriage to Padme, he could have gone to the council with his visions and concerns, and his fall would never have happened.

 

As for your point about the creator of the franchise having control, I would normally agree, but in the case of 30+ yrs of expanded universe, in which LA has has veto power on everything with the SW name, regardless of what he says, the SW lore is much bigger than Lucas today.

 

Well your post made it sound as if just the relationship led to the darkside, when its the consequences of the relationship that lead to it. It was more of trying to clear it up, for anyone who would have taken in the wrong way is all.

 

Yes but if he doesn't have that power, and writers are able to do whatever they want....then things would get out of hand rather quickly.

[Revelationjp]

Well your post made it sound as if just the relationship led to the darkside, when its the consequences of the relationship that lead to it. It was more of trying to clear it up, for anyone who would have taken in the wrong way is all.

 

Yes but if he doesn't have that power, and writers are able to do whatever they want....then things would get out of hand rather quickly.

No, i'm just saying that the idea that 'outlawing' relationships in general was a shortsighted teaching, and may have contributed directly to Anakins fall.

I'm also not saying that Lucas shouldn't have veto power over th EU, any creator should certainly have that. I'm just saying that I tend to ignore things he says in interviews and such when there's 30 years of additional material that has been approved by his company.

[LeeC]

No, i'm just saying that the idea that 'outlawing' relationships in general was a shortsighted teaching, and may have contributed directly to Anakins fall.

I'm also not saying that Lucas shouldn't have veto power over th EU, any creator should certainly have that. I'm just saying that I tend to ignore things he says in interviews and such when there's 30 years of additional material that has been approved by his company.

 

I am quite surprised Lucas made old republic jedi's unable to marry. I always thought it was a cliche and cheap way to try and make a romance in a movie. It's forbidden! But we are in LOVE! Its a cheap story telling mechanic that should have never been attached to the franchise.

[grandmthethird]

i still think your reading far to much into this and putting together information from now and applying it too something that predates its. i mean i don't think they had darkside lightside exclusive moves when episode 6 was wrote. all they had was force ability's and any1 that could use the force could use them. palpatines force lightening for instance, the reason he can use it but nobody else can, is because he is so strong in the force, not because its a dark ability. yoda and obi-wan say emotions lead to the darkside, hate and anger, they never say anything about using ability's leading to the darkside. this is something that was applied after 3 films so its unfair to judge luke as using darkside ability's in this way. and i think had GL known that there would be LS and DS ability's then he would have wrote it different

 

i believe luke was wearing black because he had a chance to go shopping. and he quite likes the look of the black. hes not a jedi knight at this stage so he can wear anything he wants. also with threatening jabba yet again he hasn't finished his training so hes not a jedi, all he, is a man saying what he feels he needs to say to get the job done.

 

i think in the film luke is struggling with the path to the light and the dark, and its his emotions that are the indication of this struggle and not the ability's. however this is a struggle that lightside wins and at no point does he turn darkside.

[LeeC]

 

i believe luke was wearing black because he had a chance to go shopping. and he quite likes the look of the black. hes not a jedi knight at this stage so he can wear anything he wants. also with threatening jabba yet again he hasn't finished his training so hes not a jedi, all he, is a man saying what he feels he needs to say to get the job done.

 

i think in the film luke is struggling with the path to the light and the dark, and its his emotions that are the indication of this struggle and not the ability's. however this is a struggle that lightside wins and at no point does he turn darkside.

Well actually luke's clothing was picked specifically for the movie. In 4 he is wearing white, he is inoccent and naive. In 5 he is wearing gray, he is learning more of the force and is unsure of himself and how he is going to defeat vader. In 6 he is wearing black, indicating that he is more experienced than before and fully accepts he is vaders son and wears the same colors of his father.

[Revelationjp]

As far as the idea of force choke being a "dark side" power, it's true that the power itself is not what determines it, but the use. However, consider that force choke, by its very nature, would only have the use of torture, inspiring fear, and killing in a very painful manner. Really, the same with force lightning. That's why Jedi tend to not use them. It's not that they're evil in and of themselves, but they're only real purpose would be evil really. In the case of Luke in Jabba's palace, he could have simply made the guards sleep or mind tricked them. Perhaps he wasn't strong enough to, but either way, he did the equivalent of placing his hands on their necks and strangling them. It's hard to argue that that was a "good" alignment choice.

[Rhyltran]

As far as the idea of force choke being a "dark side" power, it's true that the power itself is not what determines it, but the use. However, consider that force choke, by its very nature, would only have the use of torture, inspiring fear, and killing in a very painful manner. Really, the same with force lightning. That's why Jedi tend to not use them. It's not that they're evil in and of themselves, but they're only real purpose would be evil really. In the case of Luke in Jabba's palace, he could have simply made the guards sleep or mind tricked them. Perhaps he wasn't strong enough to, but either way, he did the equivalent of placing his hands on their necks and strangling them. It's hard to argue that that was a "good" alignment choice.

 

The reason why I haven't posted a rebuttal to you is because in the end it's semantics. While we don't completely agree on the "cause" we do agree on the "Why." if that makes sense. You agree Force Choke is a dark side ability but for a different reason than I do but in the end we both agree.

[Revelationjp]

The reason why I haven't posted a rebuttal to you is because in the end it's semantics. While we don't completely agree on the "cause" we do agree on the "Why." if that makes sense. You agree Force Choke is a dark side ability but for a different reason than I do but in the end we both agree.

 

Indeed. Always nice to find a common ground. But then again, discussing semantics is a fun, gentlemanly, and scholarly pastime too

Edited April 26, 2012 by Revelationjp

[LeeC]

As far as the idea of force choke being a "dark side" power, it's true that the power itself is not what determines it, but the use. However, consider that force choke, by its very nature, would only have the use of torture, inspiring fear, and killing in a very painful manner. Really, the same with force lightning. That's why Jedi tend to not use them. It's not that they're evil in and of themselves, but they're only real purpose would be evil really. In the case of Luke in Jabba's palace, he could have simply made the guards sleep or mind tricked them. Perhaps he wasn't strong enough to, but either way, he did the equivalent of placing his hands on their necks and strangling them. It's hard to argue that that was a "good" alignment choice.

 

I am fairly sure he would have received some light side points as opposed to darkside by snapping their necks

 

 

(WARNING the above post was a joke.)

[Revelationjp]

I am fairly sure he would have received some light side points as opposed to darkside by snapping their necks

 

 

(WARNING the above post was a joke.)

 

Lol. I was also being a bit facetious by putting that in game terms, but I couldn't resist the image of my character walking in and being given the options: A)knock out guards or b) force choke the piss out them.

[Toonimator]

Well your post made it sound as if just the relationship led to the darkside, when its the consequences of the relationship that lead to it. It was more of trying to clear it up, for anyone who would have taken in the wrong way is all.

 

Yes but if he doesn't have that power, and writers are able to do whatever they want....then things would get out of hand rather quickly.

It's not even the consequences of Anakin's relationship with Padme... it's the consequences of his relationship with Palpatine! If Anakin & Palpie weren't friends, if Palpatine hadn't been influencing him for years... then Anakin never would've had those visions of Padme dying. Many even argue that Palpatine himself CAUSED the dreams directly (he references them, I think, before Anakin goes to tell Mace about Palpie being Sith), so without Palpatine everything would've been fine. Even Anakin's arrogance was in large part fed by Palpatine's praise and 'guidance'.

[LeeC]

It's not even the consequences of Anakin's relationship with Padme... it's the consequences of his relationship with Palpatine! If Anakin & Palpie weren't friends, if Palpatine hadn't been influencing him for years... then Anakin never would've had those visions of Padme dying. Many even argue that Palpatine himself CAUSED the dreams directly (he references them, I think, before Anakin goes to tell Mace about Palpie being Sith), so without Palpatine everything would've been fine. Even Anakin's arrogance was in large part fed by Palpatine's praise and 'guidance'.

I disagree, jedi's can see vision that sometimes come true and sometimes do not. Yoda addresses this and so do some of the other jedi/sith masters.

[Revelationjp]

It's not even the consequences of Anakin's relationship with Padme... it's the consequences of his relationship with Palpatine! If Anakin & Palpie weren't friends, if Palpatine hadn't been influencing him for years... then Anakin never would've had those visions of Padme dying. Many even argue that Palpatine himself CAUSED the dreams directly (he references them, I think, before Anakin goes to tell Mace about Palpie being Sith), so without Palpatine everything would've been fine. Even Anakin's arrogance was in large part fed by Palpatine's praise and 'guidance'.

 

And that's exactly my point! It's why I've always felt like the Jedi rule against relationships was likely an over-time perversion of a caution against this sort of thing. Given that the Jedi order has lasted who knows how many thousands of years, I can easily see a teaching of "be wary of your relationships, because they can cause you to lose focus and become tempted by the Dark Side" slowly become "don't have any relationships at all, young Padawan!".

 

Like I was saying earlier, that's what lead to my theory that Anakin's bringing balance to the Force was the extermination of both Sith AND Jedi, so that a new teaching could begin, one that was more lenient and not so embroiled in politics and lteralism.

Edited April 26, 2012 by Revelationjp

[Revelationjp]

I disagree, jedi's can see vision that sometimes come true and sometimes do not. Yoda addresses this and so do some of the other jedi/sith masters.

 

Anakin's visions may very well have been real, but that doesn't change his point that Palpatine's influence had a large impact on Anakin's fall, and without that influence, his relationship with Padme may have not had any consequences. Certainly Anakin would never had been lead to believe that the Dark side could keep her from dieing without Palpatines influence.

[Setsugetsuka]

Anakin's visions may very well have been real, but that doesn't change his point that Palpatine's influence had a large impact on Anakin's fall, and without that influence, his relationship with Padme may have not had any consequences. Certainly Anakin would never had been lead to believe that the Dark side could keep her from dieing without Palpatines influence.

You saw what he did when he saw his Mother die right?

I can imagine something similar would occur if Padme died, Palpatine or no Palpatine.

[Revelationjp]

You saw what he did when he saw his Mother die right?

I can imagine something similar would occur if Padme died, Palpatine or no Palpatine.

 

Yes, but again that's not a result of the relationship. That's a result of Anakin himself. His arrogance, his anger, his lack of control. He always felt entitled. HE was the most powerful. HE deserved to be promoted to the council. How dare the universe take HIS mother from HIM. His fall was not because of his relationships, it because he was weak.

[Toonimator]

Yes, but again that's not a result of the relationship. That's a result of Anakin himself. His arrogance, his anger, his lack of control. He always felt entitled. HE was the most powerful. HE deserved to be promoted to the council. How dare the universe take HIS mother from HIM. His fall was not because of his relationships, it because he was weak.

Still, by the time his mother died, Palpatine had already sunk his claws deep in Anakin's mind. Anakin's 'weakness' was likely nurtured by Palpatine over the years, poisoning him by promoting the notion that the Jedi feared his potential, that they were holding him back, that they were jerks for not rescuing his mother from slavery... well, maybe not that last one, as it'd open up Anakin to asking the Chancellor to do something about that himself! Granted Palpatine would probably have a 'Tatooine's Hutt-controlled so my hands are tied, the bureaucracy would never allow it' excuse at the ready.

 

Anyway, the point stands that Anakin's visions of Padme dying in childbirth likely WOULD NOT HAVE HAPPENED if Palpatine hadn't been influencing him for so long (if Palpatine wasn't using the Force to give Anakin the nightmare visions in the first place!)! And Padme's life was only in peril in those visions because Anakin was gonna choke her and break her heart & will to live (poorly executed tho it was). If Anakin had not fallen to the dark side, had not joined the Sith, then Padme would've never been betrayed & nearly choked to death by him, and she'd have deliver the babies just fine and lived to raise them.

[jarjarloves]

No. You have not addressed it. You kept pointing everyone to the dictionary link and not addressing it at all. You stated that saving your friends is not selfish. You continuously ignored us when we stated the entire galaxy at large means more than your friends. You stated he could not have won without the help of his friends and that really depends as well. That one attack may have been doomed to failure but at the same time a Luke with finished training would have been quite a bit more powerful and he'd have that to work with. So we don't even know that for sure.

 

This isn't an assumption. Yes after the death star he wore the same clothing. There was no time to change. The outfit is no doubt a Jedi outfit but once again colors have meaning. The colors are chosen for a reason. It's foreshadowing. Much as the foreshadowing done with Anakin's darker colors compared to most of the Jedi. It's no different here. The foreshadowing is extremely obvious.

 

You even state the only difference is the color. This is very important. There is a reason the color is different. Force persuade wouldn't work on a rancor because they aren't Sentient. A creature doesn't need to understand basic for force persuade to work on them. See TCW series. Even if this was not the case there were other means to take down the guards. He chose to do so by using a Dark Side power. I again, re-direct you to my challenge.

 

As an example of what I mean when I say selfless look at the Batman movie. He had two choices. Rescue the woman he LOVED. Rescue the guy everyone looks up to and admires. He determined saving Harvey would benefit more people. He went with that choice. Giving up the person he loved for the man he thought the city needed. This is selfless in the greater schemes of things.

 

Note in the end he let go of everything. By tossing his lightsaber aside he didn't just go "I won't give in to anger." he was trusting in the force to protect and guide his friends. Note that was originally that made him react out of anger in the first place. There was more to it than not letting his emotions control him. He became a Jedi not because he rejected the dark side. Not because he regained self control. He became a Jedi because he finally understood to let go as Obi Wan had told him so long ago. To let go and put his trust in the force. To let it guide him. By doing this he defeated the Emperor.

 

I did adress it but I will repeat myself

 

You are under the assumpiton that Luke faces the choice of saving his friends or destroying the entire empire which is not true at all.

 

No one has told Luke he is the chosen one. All they have done is told him he is to be trained to become a Jedi knight like his father. Only then as a Jedi Knight can he go and fight Vader. They never said "Hey luke you are the chosen one you will destroy the emperor and vader and free the universe"

 

Yoda and Obi Wan want him to stay for selfsih reasons because they don't want to fail in their training like they did before with Anakin and they are willing to let Han, Chewie and even Liea die.... even though Leia is the other hope............

 

Luke wants to save his friends while disregarding his own safety or needs and this is a reoccurring theme with him. He is willing to run back and save his Aunt and Uncle, he is willing to rescue the Princess when he finds out she is on the Death Star, and he is willing to fly in the attack on the Death Star. Even though he knew it was a suicide mission.

 

That is not selfishness that is courage and compassion these are the traits of a hero. The movie would be completely different if Luke was selfish like you claim. Think of Star Wars if Ash from Army of Darkness was the lead.

 

Also I strongly recommend you watch The Dark Knight again you have that scene completely wrong. Batman tries to rescue Rachel not Harvey.

 

 

 

To the discussion going on about Anakin it is 100% Palpantine that turns Anakin to the Dark Side. If Palapantine wasn't manipulating him then he would have never turned as he would never had those dreams or turned on Padme. Hell he wouldn't have ever slaughter all the jedi kids if it wasn't for Palpentine.

 

The only thing is it's hard to say how much control Palpanetine had on Anakin before The Clone Wars ie Before his Mother died. I would have to assume it was a lot since when we see him in The Phantom Meance Anakin is a good and selfless person who seems incapable to do anyone else harm.

Edited April 28, 2012 by jarjarloves

[Wolfninjajedi]

Granted Palpatine would probably have a 'Tatooine's Hutt-controlled so my hands are tied, the bureaucracy would never allow it' excuse at the ready.

 

As a tatooine milita in-game guard said.

 

"If you have a problem with the locals, buy a blaster and deal with it yourself." Best advice ever.

Edited April 28, 2012 by Wolfninjajedi

[Rhyltran]

I did adress it but I will repeat myself

 

You are under the assumpiton that Luke faces the choice of saving his friends or destroying the entire empire which is not true at all.

 

No one has told Luke he is the chosen one. All they have done is told him he is to be trained to become a Jedi knight like his father. Only then as a Jedi Knight can he go and fight Vader. They never said "Hey luke you are the chosen one you will destroy the emperor and vader and free the universe"

 

Yoda and Obi Wan want him to stay for selfsih reasons because they don't want to fail in their training like they did before with Anakin and they are willing to let Han, Chewie and even Liea die.... even though Leia is the other hope............

 

Luke wants to save his friends while disregarding his own safety or needs and this is a reoccurring theme with him. He is willing to run back and save his Aunt and Uncle, he is willing to rescue the Princess when he finds out she is on the Death Star, and he is willing to fly in the attack on the Death Star. Even though he knew it was a suicide mission.

 

That is not selfishness that is courage and compassion these are the traits of a hero. The movie would be completely different if Luke was selfish like you claim. Think of Star Wars if Ash from Army of Darkness was the lead.

 

Also I strongly recommend you watch The Dark Knight again you have that scene completely wrong. Batman tries to rescue Rachel not Harvey.

 

 

 

To the discussion going on about Anakin it is 100% Palpantine that turns Anakin to the Dark Side. If Palapantine wasn't manipulating him then he would have never turned as he would never had those dreams or turned on Padme. Hell he wouldn't have ever slaughter all the jedi kids if it wasn't for Palpentine.

 

The only thing is it's hard to say how much control Palpanetine had on Anakin before The Clone Wars ie Before his Mother died. I would have to assume it was a lot since when we see him in The Phantom Meance Anakin is a good and selfless person who seems incapable to do anyone else harm.

 

Luke knows the Jedi are all but extinct. He knows how important he is to the fall of the Empire. He knows that he is the one who is meant to face and defeat Vader, who is a key player in the rule of Tyranny. He knows these things even without knowing that he is the chosen one. Obi Wan warned him if he went he could throw away everything that his friends have fought for by forsaking his training. He did it anyway. Obi Wan and Yoda aren't being selfish. No, they don't want him to fail. Luke failing meant the galaxy stayed in turmoil. Yoda and Obi Wan aren't after revenge. They are working to undo what Sidious has done.

 

Luke didn't care that he could have jeapordized everything his friends have been working towards. All he cared about was saving them. Regardless what was at stake. He knew what was at stake. He chose his friends. This isn't an assumption. It's all right there.

[jarjarloves]

Luke knows the Jedi are all but extinct. He knows how important he is to the fall of the Empire. He knows that he is the one who is meant to face and defeat Vader, who is a key player in the rule of Tyranny. He knows these things even without knowing that he is the chosen one. Obi Wan warned him if he went he could throw away everything that his friends have fought for by forsaking his training. He did it anyway. Obi Wan and Yoda aren't being selfish. No, they don't want him to fail. Luke failing meant the galaxy stayed in turmoil. Yoda and Obi Wan aren't after revenge. They are working to undo what Sidious has done.

 

Luke didn't care that he could have jeapordized everything his friends have been working towards. All he cared about was saving them. Regardless what was at stake. He knew what was at stake. He chose his friends. This isn't an assumption. It's all right there.

no he doesn't know that he will be important to the fall of the empire no one ever tells him that. He only knows that only a fully trained Jedi can defeat Darth Vader. But his plan is not to fight Darth Vader but to save his friends.

 

Remember even Anakin says a jedi MUST have compassion. What is more compassionate then saving your friends.

 

I guarentee if you as Star Wars fans to describe Luke Skywalkers traits almost no one will say he is selfish.

 

 

Also you are 100% wrong about luke failing meant utter turmoil.

 

Remember Yoda's last words in Empire

 

"No there is ANOTHER"

 

So even if Luke falls to the Darkside there is still hope in another to save the galaxy.

[Sniperrecon]

Non canon

 

It is canon , just a different step in canon.

 

Someone said Darkside/Lightside didn't exist in the movies , not true.

 

Darth Vader: You cannot hide forever, Luke.

Luke: I will not fight you.

Darth Vader: Give yourself to the Dark Side. It is the only way you can save your friends. Yes, your thoughts betray you. Your feelings for them are strong. Especially for... sister. So, you have a twin sister. Your feelings have now betrayed her, too. Obi-Wan was wise to hide her from me. Now his failure is complete. If you will not turn to the Dark Side... then perhaps she will...

Luke: [igniting light saber, screams] NO!

 

So , with this Dark/Light were present and Luke was using a form of Darkside power with Choke. It served no good and Jedi does good with his powers , but no big deal in the greater span of things.

 

Also , some G-Canon doesn't fit in , like Leia saying she remembered her mom , yet there is no recon or rerelease explaining or undoing that , thus we do have loops in canon.

[Sniperrecon]

of course it's the right call because that chain of events leads to the emperor dying, Vader turning back to the light, the empire being destroyed and all the main characters surviving.

 

If luke never went or even didn't go to save Han then the ground assualt on Endor would have failed, Leia would still be a sex slave for Jaba, Lando woudln't have joined the rebelion and help lead the assualt on the Death Star and well the Empire would have had a fully complete Death Star and Luke wouldn't be able to stop them.

 

Best case scenario Luke goes on his own and some how destroys the emperor but what Luke learned is that he needs his friends. It's sort of like how Harry Potter was stronger because of his friendship and Voldormot was actualy weak because he had no friends and was alone.

 

you are assuming an awful lot. such as Yoda is right (turns out he is not). You also need to look at Yoda's motivation. He is afraid that Luke will become like Anakin who he once trained instead of trusting that he is strong on his own.

 

Also ***. Ben says "that boy is our last hope" yoda replys "no there is another" which he is refering of course to Leia

 

BUT!!!!!!! Yoda knows that Leia is on the cloud city and might die. So if Luke fails and Leia dies also.......

 

btw did you find out where I said official movie novelizations are not canon?

 

But now your making stuff up and assuming. We don't know how it would have turned out if Luke would have stayed. Han may have stayed as a wall mount untill Leia came to rescure him (and you know she would have) There was already a plan by Lando to rescue Leia. The Endor assualt might not have been needed if Luke had finished his training. Vader might have searched him out and Luke might have turned him w/o a battle.

 

Still , by going , Luke riskes the Galaxy out of emotion (like Ani did, a step in the direction of the darkside) and he changed nothing by going. Han is still a wall mount , he didn't rescue Leia , or even help (and in fact put her at greater risk because she has to go back for him) and Lando was gonna join anyways cause of what the Empire did to him. And he only learns something that can and will hurt him later. Vader is Daddy. Leia is sister (btw , does anyone find it funny we talk of canon this and canon that , but in RoTJ Yoda mentions there is another , like Ben had no idea he had a sister?) If he didn't know these facts , killing Vader would have been easier , and knowing Leia was his sister put her at risk (and hisself) at the end.

 

We get the same thing when he goes to the palace. He riskes his life and that of Leia by even being there as part of the plan (i think a couple of Marines woulda been easier)