Griefing: Everyone's Problem

[Urael]

I would pay any amount of money for a dev to come in and say OP wasn't griefed and that it was working as intended. He would still say he was griefed. OP = The boy who cried Grief.

 

Pretty sure I would feignt if a Dev actually addressed:

 

1) The event.

2) Greifing.

3) FPS performance ( admitting that its not our machines its them)

4) The PvP Flagging Bug.

5) Performance issues on Illum.

6) ... feel free to add others ...

 

The Silence is strong in the Dev Tracker Forums. I wish BW was more like Bliz in communicating in the forums. Bliz is very vocal ... BW mostly crickets ( by comparison ).

[Drebs]

The Silence is strong in the Dev Tracker Forums. I wish BW was more like Bliz in communicating in the forums. Bliz is very vocal ... BW mostly crickets ( by comparison ).

 

^Agree with this.

 

Do not agree with OP. Then again, I'm a big fan of world pvp. The freedom that a player has to influence another's experience is what makes MMOs more dynamic and interesting than standard multiplayer games.

[Spoonless]

I'll agree with everyone else who has said that the flagging for PvP needs to be fixed, and that players who used this exploit to flag and gank others should be punished for griefing.

 

That said, I think that they could have made the event a little bit easier to deal with (though I had no issues personally with it; I had a blast). There could have been an Inoculation Droid on the Fleet who could vaccinate you for free, and sell the on-use vaccines for 2k each. Going this route, I would shorten the vaccination time to 3 or 4 hours, and make it persist through death. That is probably the biggest solution to many players' complaints.

Edited April 27, 2012 by Spoonless

[RDeanOU]

I would pay any amount of money for a dev to come in and say OP wasn't griefed and that it was working as intended. He would still say he was griefed. OP = The boy who cried Grief.

 

This.

 

Instead of talking about the PVP flagging issue which most of us agree was probably griefing we were busy explaining over and over again (to some very obstinate individuals) that simply being affected by a buff that has almost zero negative effects and that one can easily vaccinate against doesn't qualify as griefing. Their failure to understand the term makes the term have less meaning. It's really frustrating to me that they have been allowed to abuse the term so relentlessly.

[Urael]

This.

 

Instead of talking about the PVP flagging issue which most of us agree was probably griefing we were busy explaining over and over again (to some very obstinate individuals) that simply being affected by a buff that has almost zero negative effects and that one can easily vaccinate against doesn't qualify as griefing. Their failure to understand the term makes the term have less meaning. It's really frustrating to me that they have been allowed to abuse the term so relentlessly.

 

All together now ..... IN YOUR OPINION.

 

NO ONE agrees on the definition of Griefing. NO ONE.

 

The OP has sited examples of definitions that have supported his view and others have cited examples of definitions that support their view.

 

Since there is no universal AUTHORITATIVE source that defines Griefing, It would be nice for SOME ONE from BW to enter these forums and in the role of AUTHORITATIVE SOURCE for THIS GAME once and for all DEFINE griefing.

 

That said, ONCE Griefing is defined by BW as it applies to SWTOR we ALL agree to go with HOW BW DEFINES it. BW I await your answer ( but I ain't holdin my breath cause I don't want to pass out waiting for you to acknowledge that you even read this particular thread ( or the 4 other previous threads ) ).

Edited April 27, 2012 by Urael

[RDeanOU]

 

NOONE agrees on the definition of Griefing. NOONE.

 

The OP has sited examples of definitions that have supported his view and others have cited examples of definitions that support their view.

 

Since there is no universal AUTHORITATIVE source that defines Griefing, It would be nice for SOME ONE from BW to enter these forums and in the role of AUTHORITATIVE SOURCE for THIS GAME once and for all DEFINE griefing.

 

That said, ONCE Griefing is defined by BW as it applies to SWTOR we ALL agree to go with HOW BW DEFINES it. BW I await your answer ( but I ain't holdin my breath cause I don't want to pass out waiting for you to acknowledge that you even read this particular thread ( or the 4 other previous threads ) ).

 

This is absurd. I have only ever seen definitions that require someone intending to ruin your game experience and deriving their entertainment from that fact. I have never even heard of a definition that doesn't include that and people randomly (read: without intent as they couldn't know when they were going to explode) infecting you with a plague they have no idea you don't want and that you can easily vaccinate yourself against doesn't meet that definition.

 

There is no reasonable definition of the word that would include the behavior the OP is upset about. Bioware's own rules state that intent matters in this situation and even that doesn't dissuade him or convince him that he is being absurd.

[Malastare]

It would be nice for SOME ONE from BW to enter these forums and in the role of AUTHORITATIVE SOURCE for THIS GAME once and for all DEFINE griefing.

 

For the issue at hand, we already have a workable answer:

 

• Bioware designed the Rakghoul Plague such that it would spread from one player to another. This would occur regardless of faction or location.
  
• There was a quest that required passing the infection to other players
  
• They expected people to be infected on the Fleet. If not, then why were the containment teams scanning people as they left the fleet, and not just when they left Tatooine?
  

 

Given those observations, the only reasonable conclusion I can reach is that the spreading of the Rakghoul Plague in virtually any location or setting was an intended game mechanic. And, as a correctly functioning game mechanic, the overwhelming assumption has to be that using it as designed is not griefing. It is, effectively, an implicit statement that using the mechanism is accepted.

 

Until someone from Bioware announces something different, reason and logic state that it is not griefing.

[Urael]

This is absurd. I have only ever seen definitions that require someone intending to ruin your game experience and deriving their entertainment from that fact. I have never even heard of a definition that doesn't include that and people randomly (read: without intent as they couldn't know when they were going to explode) infecting you with a plague they have no idea you don't want and that you can easily vaccinate yourself against doesn't meet that definition.

 

There is no reasonable definition of the word that would include the behavior the OP is upset about. Bioware's own rules state that intent matters in this situation and even that doesn't dissuade him or convince him that he is being absurd.

 

Ah now we are in accord. Agreed INTENT is key. But since intent is hard to determine and since this is a hot topic It would be nice if someone from BW would once and for all adjudicate this matter as the AUTHORITATIVE source for SWTOR. Their Rules of Conduct can be interpretted in a fit for purpose matter as wrtitten now and are subjective. This is at the root of the problem. One has to admit because there seems to be more than one definition of greifing (intent or not) BW needs to step in as the AUTHORITATIVE source for SWTOR and clarify the Rules of Conducts as it applies to their game. It seems to me that as written different individuals can interpret (read into) what is written as they view it and because of this BW needs to define harrasment/griefing in no uncertain terms.

[Urael]

For the issue at hand, we already have a workable answer:

 

• Bioware designed the Rakghoul Plague such that it would spread from one player to another. This would occur regardless of faction or location.
  
• There was a quest that required passing the infection to other players
  
• They expected people to be infected on the Fleet. If not, then why were the containment teams scanning people as they left the fleet, and not just when they left Tatooine?
  

 

Given those observations, the only reasonable conclusion I can reach is that the spreading of the Rakghoul Plague in virtually any location or setting was an intended game mechanic. And, as a correctly functioning game mechanic, the overwhelming assumption has to be that using it as designed is not griefing. It is, effectively, an implicit statement that using the mechanism is accepted.

 

Until someone from Bioware announces something different, reason and logic state that it is not griefing.

 

Agreed mechanic .. past that issue now. I am more dissapointed with the event from a "story" vs. "mechanics" POV now. Contain by spreading? But yeah mechanic. But you have to admit they circle explode groups could have located themselves in lesser traffic areas than at the pvp terminals, or the gtn, or the bank , etc etc etc.

 

Agreed with your logic I just want BW to Answer so we can all let it drop by agreeing to agree with how BW adjudicates "harrasment/griefing" as it applies to this game .

[Elhanan]

For the issue at hand, we already have a workable answer:

 

• Bioware designed the Rakghoul Plague such that it would spread from one player to another. This would occur regardless of faction or location.
  
• There was a quest that required passing the infection to other players
  
• They expected people to be infected on the Fleet. If not, then why were the containment teams scanning people as they left the fleet, and not just when they left Tatooine?
  

 

Given those observations, the only reasonable conclusion I can reach is that the spreading of the Rakghoul Plague in virtually any location or setting was an intended game mechanic. And, as a correctly functioning game mechanic, the overwhelming assumption has to be that using it as designed is not griefing. It is, effectively, an implicit statement that using the mechanism is accepted.

 

Until someone from Bioware announces something different, reason and logic state that it is not griefing.

 

I agree with your first two points, but the third may be in error. Scanning has been on-going from before the Event, I believe. The Fleet may or may not have ben intended for such use; only Bioware knows for sure.

 

One thing for certain, it will no longer be viewed as a Safe Zone, and expect future mechanics to interfere with the Social hub of each faction. As for me, it will be avoided... like the Plague.

[Malastare]

...and because of this BW needs to define harrasment/griefing in no uncertain terms.

 

Seriously? Did you actually write that without laughing?

 

Do you actually believe that it's possible to define harassment or griefing in no uncertain terms? How about this: if you can manage it, you'll be famous, as centuries of courts and lawmakers backed by psychologists, philosophers, psychiatrists, historians, and etymologists have failed to accomplish what you have.

 

Wake up: It won't happen. It can't happen. Intent is virtually impossible to prove and the English language (and every other language) lacks the ability to describe subjective, abstract measurements in objective, quantitative terms. You can't even define murder in no uncertain terms. What would make you think you could do so with harassment?

 

Why not look at those centuries of history we have with determining how rules apply to people's actions? Courts still use multiple layers of subjective judgement to determine violations of the law. The whole reasons why courts exist is due to the vast numbers of situations where the rules cannot be stated in no uncertain terms. So, we have police, and investigators, and attorneys, and multiple levels of courts so that people can try to work

 

Bioware just has a shallower form of that. You don't need to have precise, unambiguous rules. You can't. It's impossible.

 

However, of course, this just steps away from the one point that really remains unresolved: The OPs insistence that using a game mechanic for its intended purpose is griefing if it annoys him.

[Malastare]

I agree with your first two points, but the third may be in error. Scanning has been on-going from before the Event, I believe. The Fleet may or may not have ben intended for such use; only Bioware knows for sure.

 

No.

 

You were always scanned. Actually, nearly every spaceport scanned yo. However, containment teams never spawned before the event. And during the event, they only spawned on Tatooine and the Fleet.

 

If nothing else, we have to assume the two places that Bioware assumed the Plague to be prevalent were Tatooine and the Fleet.

 

One thing for certain, it will no longer be viewed as a Safe Zone, and expect future mechanics to interfere with the Social hub of each faction.

 

Sorry, but you were silly to ever believe that the Fleet would not be used for game events. It is meant to be an iconic gathering place for the game. I expect every single event to have some impact on the Fleet.

[Urael]

Seriously? Did you actually write that without laughing?

 

Yeah sometimes engaging in hyperbole helps bring attention to an issue. It just seemed to me it needed to be said since we haven't heared from BW one way or another (after what 5 threads now?)

 

 

Do you actually believe that it's possible to define harassment or griefing in no uncertain terms? How about this: if you can manage it, you'll be famous, as centuries of courts and lawmakers backed by psychologists, philosophers, psychiatrists, historians, and etymologists have failed to accomplish what you have.

 

Wake up: It won't happen. It can't happen. Intent is virtually impossible to prove and the English language (and every other language) lacks the ability to describe subjective, abstract measurements in objective, quantitative terms. You can't even define murder in no uncertain terms. What would make you think you could do so with harassment?

 

Why not look at those centuries of history we have with determining how rules apply to people's actions? Courts still use multiple layers of subjective judgement to determine violations of the law. The whole reasons why courts exist is due to the vast numbers of situations where the rules cannot be stated in no uncertain terms. So, we have police, and investigators, and attorneys, and multiple levels of courts so that people can try to work

 

I don't see BW being as reactive or interactive as some of the other game companies ( e.g. Blizzard).

 

 

Bioware just has a shallower form of that. You don't need to have precise, unambiguous rules. You can't. It's impossible.

 

However, of course, this just steps away from the one point that really remains unresolved: The OPs insistence that using a game mechanic for its intended purpose is griefing if it annoys him.

 

I understand the OPs PoV. I understand the PoV of those that don't agree with the OP. I don't understand BW's PoV because of their silence. I understand that a PoV can be inferred but, I would hope that an official response by BW would be enough to satisfy everyone.

[Roechacca]

It's not my problem...

[Galbatorrix]

- PVP happening on a PVP server = Not griefing (being ganked sucks, but you knew that was a possibility when you chose that server)

- Following in game mechanics is not griefing (there was no griefing going on during the world event. NONE. You had vaccines to protect yourself and obvious signs to move when infected players where around you).

- Needing for alts or companions = not griefing (even though I never do it and ignore anyone that does it to me)

 

 

Honestly, there really isn't any "griefing" at all in this game. Things that I just mentioned like ganking, having people roll need for alts or companions, people exploding near you during the event, etc are NOT griefing. You can choose to play on a PVE server. You can ignore people that need on everything that drops and only run with guildies and you could have avoided the Rakghoul plague all together if you wanted to.

 

I played plenty during the even and the only toon to become infected was my Trooper. And that was because he wanted to be.....

 

 

People just love making mountains out of mole hills.

Edited April 27, 2012 by Galbatorrix

[Urael]

Sorry, but you were silly to ever believe that the Fleet would not be used for game events. It is meant to be an iconic gathering place for the game. I expect every single event to have some impact on the Fleet.

 

TBH, I wish they would do away with fleet entirely.

 

I wish they would make DK and Corrsucant the focus hubs.

 

That said I also would wish that there would be a mechanism for Factions raids on the capital cities (e.g. WoW).

 

The fleet is too confined. It would be hard to avoid the effects of Faction raids there. The major cites are more open and would be easier to avoid for those that don't want to participate.

 

Thoughts?

Edited April 27, 2012 by Urael

[RDeanOU]

Ah now we are in accord. Agreed INTENT is key. But since intent is hard to determine and since this is a hot topic It would be nice if someone from BW would once and for all adjudicate this matter as the AUTHORITATIVE source for SWTOR. Their Rules of Conduct can be interpretted in a fit for purpose matter as wrtitten now and are subjective. This is at the root of the problem. One has to admit because there seems to be more than one definition of greifing (intent or not) BW needs to step in as the AUTHORITATIVE source for SWTOR and clarify the Rules of Conducts as it applies to their game. It seems to me that as written different individuals can interpret (read into) what is written as they view it and because of this BW needs to define harrasment/griefing in no uncertain terms.

 

No, your position is entirely absurd and without any reasonable basis.

 

Every definition requires that the person intend to cause you grief and it cannot be reasonably argued that anyone intended to cause you grief in this situation. There was no possible way for them to know you didn't want the plague as you were not vaccinated. In fact, a reasonable person would conclude that you probably did want it since you chose not to use the vaccine. On top of that the players did not know the exact moment they would explode and spread the plague and so they could not have done so intentionally.

 

For anyone to claim under those circumstances that one person spreading the plague to another was intended to cause that other person grief is completely, totally, and unequivocally absurd.

 

You people are abusing the term "griefing" and it's an absolute joke that you are being allowed to do so.

Edited April 27, 2012 by RDeanOU

[Roechacca]

TBH, I wish they would do away with fleet entirely.

 

I wish they would make DK and Corrsucant the focus hubs.

 

That said I also would wish that there would be a mechanism for Factions raids on the capital cities (e.g. WoW).

 

The fleet is too confined. It would be hard to avoid the effects of Faction raids there. The major cites are more open and would be easier to avoid for those that don't want to participate.

 

Thoughts?

 

that's an interesting idea.

[Tatebomb]

TBH, I wish they would do away with fleet entirely.

 

I wish they would make DK and Corrsucant the focus hubs.

 

That said I also would wish that there would be a mechanism for Factions raids on the capital cities (e.g. WoW).

 

The fleet is too confined. It would be hard to avoid the effects of Faction raids there. The major cites are more open and would be easier to avoid for those that don't want to participate.

 

Thoughts?

 

This is actually a very good idea. /signed.

[Galbatorrix]

TBH, I wish they would do away with fleet entirely.

 

I wish they would make DK and Corrsucant the focus hubs.

 

That said I also would wish that there would be a mechanism for Factions raids on the capital cities (e.g. WoW).

 

The fleet is too confined. It would be hard to avoid the effects of Faction raids there. The major cites are more open and would be easier to avoid for those that don't want to participate.

 

Thoughts?

 

 

Wait.... so, you didn't like that people were standing around the GTN on fleet while infected, so your solution is to get rid of fleet making the home world hot spots (GTN, trainers, etc) the only means of accessing those features?!? You realize this would FORCE you to use a GTN that is smack dab in the middle of the next world event, right? With the Rakghoul event, you could go to the home world's GTN and avoid the plague altogether in most cases. Your solution is to take away an alternate place for people to get their business done? Sorry, but your idea would do the opposite of what you want. It would force everyone to be right in the middle of the action during a world event.

Edited April 27, 2012 by Galbatorrix

[Urael]

Wait.... so, you didn't like that people were standing around the GTN on fleet while infected, so your solution is to get rid of fleet making the home world hot spots (GTN, trainers, etc) the only means of accessing those features?!? You realize this would FORCE you to use a GTN that is smack dab in the middle of the next world even, right? With the Rakghoul event, you could go to the home world's GTN and avoid it altogether in most cases. Your solution is to take away an alternate place for people to get their business done? Your solution would do the opposite of what you want. It would force everyone to be right in the middle of the action during a world event.

 

The city could be architected to have multiple locations for high use areas. Take orgrimar for instance in WoW, there are 2 banks, 2 auction houses etc. Faction raids tend to be as close to the main gate as possible. Kitting out the major cites ( they are pretty huge with lots of unused space) with duplicate areas for activites like crafting, banking, auctioning (e.g. orgrimar) would allow those that don't want to be in the Faction Raid action an alternative. I would imagine that given the cities layout and guard postings this would help keep the alternative area "safer" (but not safe) to accomodate this.

 

There have been multiple daily faction raids FOR YEARS on the servers I play on in wow has never really effected me. The end of Wrath beginning of CATA elemental invasion on the cites was easy to avoid ... just saying there are other ways to accomodate both events on central hubs and faction raids AND make the "safer" for those that don't want to participate.

 

IT IS POSSIBLE to accomodate everyone. IMO, BW has not. If they took a lessons learned from Blizzard in this regards for future events it would improve them.

[Galbatorrix]

The city could be architected to have multiple locations for high use areas. Take orgrimar for instance in WoW, there are 2 banks, 2 auction houses etc. Faction raids tend to be as close to the main gate as possible. Kitting out the major cites ( they are pretty huge with lots of unused space) with duplicate areas for activites like crafting, banking, auctioning (e.g. orgrimar) would allow those that don't want to be in the Faction Raid action an alternative. I would imagine that given the cities layout and guard postings this would help keep the alternative area "safer" (but not safe) to accomodate this.

 

There have been multiple daily faction raids FOR YEARS on the servers I play on in wow has never really effected me. The end of Wrath beginning of CATA elemental invasion on the cites was easy to avoid ... just saying there are other ways to accomodate both events on central hubs and faction raids AND make the "safer" for those that don't want to participate.

 

IT IS POSSIBLE to accomodate everyone. IMO, BW has not. If they took a lessons learned from Blizzard in this regards for future events it would improve them.

 

 

 

You HAD multiple areas for this event, and yet you still complained. You could have stayed on the home world the whole time and been completely fine. How would making it faster to access both areas make one of the two "safer"? It would just make you easier to get to for these "griefers".

[GnatB]

No, your position is entirely absurd and without any reasonable basis.

 

Every definition requires that the person intend to cause you grief and it cannot be reasonably argued that anyone intended to cause you grief in this situation. There was no possible way for them to know you didn't want the plague as you were not vaccinated. In fact, a reasonable person would conclude that you probably did want it since you chose not to use the vaccine. On top of that the players did not know the exact moment they would explode and spread the plague and so they could not have done so intentionally.

 

For anyone to claim under those circumstances that one person spreading the plague to another was intended to cause that other person grief is completely, totally, and unequivocally absurd.

 

You people are abusing the term "griefing" and it's an absolute joke that you are being allowed to do so.

 

A reasonable person would have assumed that if I wasn't standing 100 m over by the crowd of people gathering together so they could get infected, then the odds are pretty close to 100% that I probably didn't want to get infected. If I did then I'd be standing over by all the other people wanting to get infected.

 

A reasonable person would have assumed that if I didn't have the vaccine it was because I was too poor/cheap to afford it. (of course, a reasonable person probably isn't actually taking the time to check buffs, so vaccine or lack thereof doesn't really much matter).

 

A reasonable person would have, if somehow *really* needing to use the GTN while in the "about to blow" stage, gone to the empty one next to the other guy that is also in the "about to blow" stage, and not go to the other one to make sure they are both covered. Of course, most reasonable people that didn't want to grief would have simply waited over by the crowed of people wanting to be infected to blow, and then done their banking.

 

When you walk over to the GTN, and see 1 guy about to blow standing in front of each of the GTN terminals, and 1 guy by the mailbox, (again, standing in front) With everybody else standing away from them (and thus unable to use the terminals/mail). You can be pretty darn sure about their intent.

[Galbatorrix]

A reasonable person would have assumed that if I wasn't standing 100 m over by the crowd of people gathering together so they could get infected, then the odds are pretty close to 100% that I probably didn't want to get infected. If I did then I'd be standing over by all the other people wanting to get infected.

 

A reasonable person would have assumed that if I didn't have the vaccine it was because I was too poor/cheap to afford it. (of course, a reasonable person probably isn't actually taking the time to check buffs, so vaccine or lack thereof doesn't really much matter).

 

A reasonable person would have, if somehow *really* needing to use the GTN while in the "about to blow" stage, gone to the empty one next to the other guy that is also in the "about to blow" stage, and not go to the other one to make sure they are both covered. Of course, most reasonable people that didn't want to grief would have simply waited over by the crowed of people wanting to be infected to blow, and then done their banking.

 

When you walk over to the GTN, and see 1 guy about to blow standing in front of each of the GTN terminals, and 1 guy by the mailbox, (again, standing in front) With everybody else standing away from them (and thus unable to use the terminals/mail). You can be pretty darn sure about their intent.

 

 

Did you try the GTN on your factions home world? The entire fleet was covered in plague and you had an alternative. Also, no one can choose when to explode. If I'm infected and need to look through the GTN, I'm not going to wait 30 minutes until I explode to do so. I'm not the one with a hang up about it. I shouldn't have to go out of my way due to you not wanting to participate.

 

Honestly, this would be like you going to a movie with a group of friends and then demand that they all see the movie you want to see even though they all agreed that they wanted to see a different movie. You can either deal with it and see their movie, or go see yours alone.

 

Just like with this, if you wanted to be in the "social hub", you had to deal with the plague. You could have went to the home world, but in your mind, that probably wasn't "fair".

Edited April 27, 2012 by Galbatorrix

[Tatebomb]

A reasonable person would have assumed that if I wasn't standing 100 m over by the crowd of people gathering together so they could get infected, then the odds are pretty close to 100% that I probably didn't want to get infected. If I did then I'd be standing over by all the other people wanting to get infected.

 

A reasonable person would have assumed that if I didn't have the vaccine it was because I was too poor/cheap to afford it. (of course, a reasonable person probably isn't actually taking the time to check buffs, so vaccine or lack thereof doesn't really much matter).

 

A reasonable person would have, if somehow *really* needing to use the GTN while in the "about to blow" stage, gone to the empty one next to the other guy that is also in the "about to blow" stage, and not go to the other one to make sure they are both covered. Of course, most reasonable people that didn't want to grief would have simply waited over by the crowed of people wanting to be infected to blow, and then done their banking.

 

When you walk over to the GTN, and see 1 guy about to blow standing in front of each of the GTN terminals, and 1 guy by the mailbox, (again, standing in front) With everybody else standing away from them (and thus unable to use the terminals/mail). You can be pretty darn sure about their intent.

 

You're assuming quite a bit. Mainly that all these guys are in cahoots. It is reasonable that people are completely oblivious to the world around them(as the case with OP. he doesn't team and has his chat shut off). I know when I was infected I just went about my business. If that was a GTN trip or a mailbox run I just went to whichever one had the least amount of people(easier to click) or was closest. If I blew up I blew up I didn't pay much attention or cared if anyone else got infected.

 

It was a world event if you don't want to participate fine but don't expect me to adjust my gamestyle to suit you. If YOU want to avoid it then YOU need to take the necessary steps not me. BW IMO went above and beyond to make it easily avoidable. You guys whine about getting griefed by this like we are supposed to check everyone and ask if it's ok if we use the same GTN terminal becuase we might blow up.