TheOpf Posted April 24, 2012 Share Posted April 24, 2012 It’s not a bug nor is it a broken talent. What we have is a severely underperforming Cylinder/Cell. Currently running numerous tests and spreadsheets, it is a net dps gain of 60-100 dps to skip HEGC/HEC and simply use CGC/PC. The damage increase gained from 8 points in Pyro/Assault tree makes the Cell/Cylinder the premier dps choice. This makes the points in the AP/Tactics tree a waste to spec into. I gain more dps by using Rapid shots more often than by getting the passive heat venting from the AP/Tactics tree. The 15 percent speed boost is offset by the fact that CGC has a 50 percent slow, and I have a 30 percent slow tied to Gut/RB. Thereby making it a better choice for pvp. Running several simulations we see a net gain of close to 10 percent dps increase by ignoring HEGC/HEC completely both in pvp and pve. There are multiple issues with the AP/Tactics tree that are well-known and yet never been changed. Tactics doesn’t have the slow attached to Pulse Generator. Pulse Generator/Prototype Flame Cylinder has only a 20 percent damage increase as opposed to a 50 percent damage increase. However, my main concern is that one of our Cylinders/Cells is completely useless in terms of dps and pvp. There is no need for me to use HEGC/HEC. So I have a few suggestions that I think would create a greater need to use the correct Cylinder/Cell. 1. Have HEGC/HEC be necessary to activate Charged Gauntlets and PFT/PG. This would essentially kill the usage of CGC with AP. However this won’t fix the issue of our AP/Tactics being a minimum of 5 percent in dps behind Pyro. 1700 to 1616 at current gear settings. 2. Have HEGC/HEC tied into Hot Iron. This would bring Pyro’s dps down marginally, and bring it closer to AP/Tactics. 3. Increase the overall damage of HEGC/HeC to 12 percent with talents. This would boost the overall dps of the spec closer to Pyro/Assault and eliminate any desire to use CGC/PC. 4. Have HEGC/HEC work on all damage. This way it would benefit Rocket Punch, Rail Shot, and Rapid shots. Which would increase the likelihood of AP/Tactics actually feeling the need to spec into Rail Shot/Hib Boosts. Currently there is no reason to use HEGC or HEC except to feel special ;p. A 100 dps loss is significant enough to not want to use a Cylinder regardless of passive venting. Rapid shots would give me a greater boost in dps as it’s tied to CGC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dardack Posted April 24, 2012 Share Posted April 24, 2012 Yeah stinks that as AP the Pyro cyl is just that much better for DPS. HEGC just can't compete. Would like to see a small buff to it to bring it into line with CGC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheOpf Posted April 24, 2012 Author Share Posted April 24, 2012 Yeah stinks that as AP the Pyro cyl is just that much better for DPS. HEGC just can't compete. Would like to see a small buff to it to bring it into line with CGC. If they just took one of the ideas and used them it would give us a reason to use HEGC. The 8 percent damage increase and passive venting is nice, but by weaving Rapid Shots every two attacks, I do more damage by keeping CGC on the target and keeping increasing my dps. Even though it completely breaks from the tree. It breaks the 12 second rule, and yet surpass in dps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nezyrworks Posted April 24, 2012 Share Posted April 24, 2012 (edited) If they just took one of the ideas and used them it would give us a reason to use HEGC. The 8 percent damage increase and passive venting is nice, but by weaving Rapid Shots every two attacks, I do more damage by keeping CGC on the target and keeping increasing my dps. Even though it completely breaks from the tree. It breaks the 12 second rule, and yet surpass in dps. Until they will fix pulse generator and make PG only for HEC/HEGC we can't speak about 12 second rule. Besides my AOE (yes i rely mostly on AOE on pvp rather than single target burst which noone mentioned) benefits more if i have 5 stacks of PG up (yes i am talking about SG and MV). This build (NORC 8/31/2) is completly diferent from pyro, because you are not counting AOE, which is a BIG part of tactics all in all. And in my opinion THIS is the main strenght and dps source of the build. If you compare single target dps rate it will always be lower, but IF you count toward full usage of ALL (yes i use ES) your AOE's then it changes dramaticaly. It's a time presure build. Edited April 24, 2012 by Nezyrworks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheOpf Posted April 24, 2012 Author Share Posted April 24, 2012 Bump! The recent patch notes have not noted any changes to Vanguards. BW, the Vanguards and Powertechs have rarely complained about anything can we please get an update as to why Pulse Generator is still broken 2 weeks after the patch is live? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShiroRX Posted April 24, 2012 Share Posted April 24, 2012 Support for my Tactics bros. Cause one day I'm gonna need them to score in Huttball. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icegreentea Posted April 24, 2012 Share Posted April 24, 2012 I agree with this. I would even go farther and say tactics as a whole just needs to be changed. Even if they up the dps on it to be equal to assault I still wouldn't switch. The problem with tactics is the main dps ability is a channeled aoe. This just runs into problems especially with breaking CC. It also forces you to stand still. There are times when certain enemies have reflect shields up and are bunched up with targets you need to single dps down. Hit that group at the wrong time with pulse cannon and you just instantly killed yourself. Now if you don't use pulse cannon then your dps goes way down. Not to mention the dps is already behind assault. That's not the only problem. Considering you are also in melee range bosses some times throw out knock backs and stuns that will stop pulse cannon from finishing. Even if you use the ability "hold the line" you can still get stunned. You also need "hold the line" to not be on a cool down. Why take all those risks when you can just go assault and know that HIB/RS will land every time it's up. All you have to do is pay attention to your ammo. You also have the ability to do decent damage from range and you never have to stand still. You can constantly be on the move without losing any dps. So if a boss goes into a phase where you have to be range you can still keep your dps up. If the boss starts dropping aoes around the room you don't lose any dps by having to move. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icegreentea Posted April 24, 2012 Share Posted April 24, 2012 Where are you getting 1700-1600 dps. Most people who have run a damage meter show 1200-1300 dps after around 3 mins. I have over 2100 aim and my bonus damage is slightly over 560 and I still get no where near that amount on the PVE dummy on my ship. This is with self buffs and sage buff as assault. Trooper dps is not that high. We have good burst but, sustain dps is average at best. Another problem that I have is we don't have an aggro dump for pve. This makes it even harder to get that 1200-1300 dps on bosses that require tank swapping as the tank doesn't get to build up much aggro before he has to swap. A lot of problems with vanguards for dpsing. Not just with the cell we use for deep tactics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheOpf Posted April 24, 2012 Author Share Posted April 24, 2012 (edited) Where are you getting 1700-1600 dps. Most people who have run a damage meter show 1200-1300 dps after around 3 mins. I have over 2100 aim and my bonus damage is slightly over 560 and I still get no where near that amount on the PVE dummy on my ship. This is with self buffs and sage buff as assault. Trooper dps is not that high. We have good burst but, sustain dps is average at best. Another problem that I have is we don't have an aggro dump for pve. This makes it even harder to get that 1200-1300 dps on bosses that require tank swapping as the tank doesn't get to build up much aggro before he has to swap. A lot of problems with vanguards for dpsing. Not just with the cell we use for deep tactics. It's a spreadsheet formula. You won't get similar numbers on a dummy unless you have full raid buffs. I run simulations using maximum raid buffs and maximum uptime on boss. The numbers are totally not reachable unless you never leave a target for 5 minutes run a perfect rotation with perfect heat management, and have full raid buffs. A spreadsheet is not going to reflect actual numbers they are designed to help us find optimal rotations and talents. A damage meter is always going to reflect slightly lower numbers because of human error. We use spreadsheets and parser to show us what we could get if we were perfect. Edited April 24, 2012 by TheOpf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icegreentea Posted April 24, 2012 Share Posted April 24, 2012 (edited) How do you know your spreadsheet formula is correct? You're telling me I make a mistake every time I dps the dummy on my ship for just 3 mins? I done it over a 100 times. You're saying I made a mistakes multiple times in everyone of those fights where there is nothing attacking me back. That it's causing me to lose 300 damage per second for 180 seconds... Also, what spreadsheet are you using as most spreadsheets have BIS gear from 1.1 not 1.2. I already have a couple of blackhole pieces and my damage is no where near 1700. The game also has global cool downs. It doesn't take that much to do optimal dps against the dummy target. Kind of crazy you're going to take spreadsheet numbers (none of the formulas have been proven and they also said to have been changed in 1.2) over actual in game numbers. Now as for fully raid buffed I'm missing smugglers buff and knights. Even with those two buffs there is no way I make up 350-450 damage per second. I believe I saw some people claim they did 1350 with dps meters fully raid buff. That sounds reasonable. Not 1700. Edited April 24, 2012 by icegreentea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheOpf Posted April 24, 2012 Author Share Posted April 24, 2012 (edited) How do you know your spreadsheet formula is correct? You're telling me I make a mistake every time I dps the dummy on my ship for just 3 mins? I done it over a 100 times. You're saying I made a mistakes multiple times in everyone of those fights where there is nothing attacking me back. That it's causing me to lose 300 damage per second for 180 seconds... Also, what spreadsheet are you using as most spreadsheets have BIS gear from 1.1 not 1.2. I already have a couple of blackhole pieces and my damage is no where near 1700. The game also has global cool downs. It doesn't take that much to do optimal dps against the dummy target. Kind of crazy you're going to take spreadsheet numbers (none of the formulas have been proven and they also said to have been changed in 1.2) over actual in game numbers. Now as for fully raid buffed I'm missing smugglers buff and knights. Even with those two buffs there is no way I make up 250 damage per second. I believe I saw some people claim they did 1350 with dps meters fully raid buff. That sounds reasonable. Not 1700. You forgot about trinkets, adrenals, and the debuff on target provided by I can't remember which class. I don't have your stats. I used dardack's because he provided me them for usage. Dardack hit 1475 in a raid, and so I asked him for his numbers. I ran his numbers for his build, and it came up to 1452 -1515 as his dps output based on his numbers. I then ran different builds using his stats as my basis. I came up with the numbers. 1515 is Norse build without RS/RB 1550 is the highest output for Norse Build with RS/RB 1616 is Full AP 1654 is Maverick 1670 was Full AP with CGC 1700 was Pyro. These are the numbers dardack could conceivably hit using static conditions and full raid buffs. You missed the point. The point is not that 1700 is or isn't reachable. The point was that HEGC is a dps loss compared to using CGC. I don't care if AP with HEGC is 100 pts less than Pyro. I care that HEGC is actually a dps loss to running AP with CGC. I am using the spreadsheet found here http://mmo-mechanics.com/swtor/forums/Thread-Kray-s-Powertech-DPS-Simulator-v1-2-6-FULL-RELEASE Edited April 24, 2012 by TheOpf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheOpf Posted April 26, 2012 Author Share Posted April 26, 2012 Bumping this to the top since We still need multiple fixes on the AP and Tactics tree. Thank s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheOpf Posted April 27, 2012 Author Share Posted April 27, 2012 Keeping hope alive for our Vanguard buddies who need to be fixed soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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