Sorcs struggling with 1.2 PVP, we can help if you want to improve

[Ghalthos]

Well am I the only one that thinks that is massively overpowered, considering that would give Juggs the insta-kill against something like a Sorc? unless the Sorc tried to escape?

 

Unremitting/ Unstoppable starts when they begin their leap, not when they land. This mean they are able to get only two instant abilities before it expires. Also this applies only to Veng Juggs and Vilgilance Guardians as it is a third tier talent. These two specs rely on constant mid-level damage, and do not have the single ability burst that other classes/specs have. They are not insta-gibbing anyone.

 

If it applied to LOLSMASH Rage and Focus spec players I might agree that it is overpowered. In it's current form however I do not.

Edited May 9, 2012 by Ghalthos
Clarity

[fujeo-finel]

Sorcs are UP? HAHAHAHAHAHAH

 

Sincerely: An Arsenal Merc.

Edited May 9, 2012 by fujeo-finel

[_Minmaxer_]

Well am I the only one that thinks that is massively overpowered, considering that would give Juggs the insta-kill against something like a Sorc? unless the Sorc tried to escape?

 

The ability is good, but a nuisance more than anything else. Purge their snare and start kiting until the glowing shields disappear. It only gives them a couple seconds of immunity.

[fungihoujo]

I really don't get this whole "Sorc/Sage is so underpowered in PvP" chatter. Sorcs and Sage are more than fine, especially in PvP. Anyone who thinks otherwise that plays this class is bad. BAD.

 

More like, anyone who can lose against a sorc or sage as another class is absolutely terrible and should unsub. I've yet to find a sorc that can get my marauder down even 30% health- and that's without bothering with immunity, stealth and other defensive CDs.

 

No sorc is going to outdamage me- ever. No non-corruption sorc is going to get off a decent heal, ever. And even a corruption sorc is going to die in a matters of seconds.

 

Can a really great sorc outplay a bad or average or even decent player of any other class? Of course- but no sorc can be great enough to stand against a great player of any other class. Furthermore- single target damage is excessively low, making sorcs even more harmless in any case where the other team has a healer.

 

When I see a sorc even come close to being a threat on any other class- I'll consider them something other than fodder. Right now though- the class is free kills every time.

[RaugMoss]

The ability is good, but a nuisance more than anything else. Purge their snare and start kiting until the glowing shields disappear. It only gives them a couple seconds of immunity.

 

Their CC is spammable while purge is on 5 sec cd, they have 18k hp which is increased to 20k hp with cd, they can use a medpack for 6k, they have 2 more defensive cds, they take less damage in unstoppable, which applies AFTER they land and lasts for 4 seconds, which means 3 abilities while you cannot apply any snares, slows, stuns. Only way to escape is to sprint but they can shake off the damage and catch up in the 15 seconds they need for charging again, they have ranged damaging abilities and they can kill you in only 8 seconds uptime if you are extremely well geared as my sorcerer is. Plus, a good juggernaut will always force choke you in mid-sprint which you will need to cc-break to get away 5-10 meters less than a full sprint.

 

Trying to beat them is futile, go CC others, prevent caps, stun a healer and damage that while he pounds you, much more constructive imo...

 

And ofc there are bad playing ones, which are killable, but its easy to kill bad/undergeared players in this game, so that doesn't count.

 

Edit:

Can a really great sorc outplay a bad or average or even decent player of any other class? Of course- but no sorc can be great enough to stand against a great player of any other class. Furthermore- single target damage is excessively low, making sorcs even more harmless in any case where the other team has a healer.

 

True, but sorcerers can beat some classes even though they play it exceptionally and with cooldowns. Powertechs, Arsenal Mercs, Constantly LOS'd 20+ second fight with snipers and dps assassins (though all are tank/dps atm).

 

And fungihoujo, I'm sorry that you don't have competitive sorcerers in your server who forces an undying rage or 20% ish hp in your part before they go down, because that is how my fight with a very skilled marauder with all the cds in my/his disposal. Baddies generally die.

 

However, to win a 1v1 against a decent player, a sorcerer must almost always burn all his cds. Without them, it's just not possible. Some classes use cds just to burst-for-cap or defend-node situations. They don't bother with them in other situations and still faceroll many others.

 

So, if you are playing a sorcerer, play your role. You are tasked with hiding behind obstacles, dotting people, help teammates via pull (help kite, avoid death between 3 melee, pull near healer), snaring/rooting (to delay dps-cap / help kite / avoid teammate being kited), bubbling teammates, dangling as a carrot (free-kill) to classes that in their greed, follow you and allow cap etc etc. That is your job, do it well

 

Just accept death with open arms, your delay in death means that your teammates are pounding on some ppl that greedily pound you, don't always focus on the one attacking you, 1v1ing him isn't worth it, go pick a healer while he's killing you, if your spawn point is far, burn cds on that healer, on objective capper, snare a melee who is being kited by a fellow ranged class by snaring him, play for your team and die while doing it, its ok.

 

I'm a Valor 79 (leveled several alts so this would have been over 90) sorcerer and think myself quite capable in my current task and excel in bringing my teammates up+doing inflated damage/heal numbers while sticking to objectives.

But I'm absolute garbage when I'm decided as dead-meat by some opposition players with classes that I cannot counter and I really am pissed off because of that. Another pissing situation is our over 21 second/18 second pitiful damage and 600-1k lightning dots (300-700 on armored, 150-270 on defensive cd of tank).

 

Live with that, play your absolute best to be viable, when there is the option of facerolling and killing one after another with a warrior and powertech...

Edited May 10, 2012 by RaugMoss

[Ghalthos]

I tested Unstoppable (with 43ms) before posting previously in order to provide factually accurate information. The timer starts the moment the Juggernaut activates his ability at the start of his leap, not when he lands.

 

The leap animation will play and than he lands. This will leave him with enough time to get 2 instant abilities off while under it's effects, it will drop just before the third.

 

This can easily be tested by anyone in a simple duel.

 

Plan accordingly.

 

*edited for elaboration and clarity*

Edited May 10, 2012 by Ghalthos
Clarity

[RaugMoss]

I tested Unstoppable (with 43ms) before posting previously in order to provide factually accurate information. The timer starts the moment the Juggernaut leaves the ground at the start of his leap, not when he lands.

 

He will be able to get 2 instant abilities off while under it's effects, it will drop just before the third.

 

Plan accordingly.

 

Thanks for the info, but having 1 second less on that timer doesn't help the case very much, read the rest of my post above for how a decent juggernaut can play out a 1v1 against a sorcerer.

[Ghalthos]

I read it. I was correcting your inaccurate information.

 

I would also argue that having one less ability to use while under the effects of unstoppable makes a significant difference. One of the two abilities that he uses should be a snare, leaving him with one damaging ability. This ability will be either Sunder or Impale. Neither one of which should even break your bubble (unless there is a big gear difference or unless Impale crits).

 

If no snare is applied, this leaves you options to kite. If he decides to forgo the snare and use his force push into another leap. This gives him another two free moves, for a total of four abilities at the cost of all his mobility cool downs. You would be hurt, but you certainly would not be dead. This also gives you more kiting options.

 

Unstoppable has an overblown reputation on these forums. Is it nice? Of course. But it is not an "I win" ability against sage/sorcs. Find one in your guild and duel for awhile.

Edited May 10, 2012 by Ghalthos
Elaboration

[Adzzy]

marauders aren't really the hardest class for a sorc,, they're middle of the road, pyro powertechs and assassins are the 2 classes in the "you don't have a chance" basket, juggernauts come next, then you'd slot in marauders.

[_Minmaxer_]

Their CC is spammable while purge is on 5 sec cd, they have 18k hp which is increased to 20k hp with cd, they can use a medpack for 6k, they have 2 more defensive cds, they take less damage in unstoppable, which applies AFTER they land and lasts for 4 seconds, which means 3 abilities while you cannot apply any snares, slows, stuns. Only way to escape is to sprint but they can shake off the damage and catch up in the 15 seconds they need for charging again, they have ranged damaging abilities and they can kill you in only 8 seconds uptime if you are extremely well geared as my sorcerer is. Plus, a good juggernaut will always force choke you in mid-sprint which you will need to cc-break to get away 5-10 meters less than a full sprint.

 

Trying to beat them is futile, go CC others, prevent caps, stun a healer and damage that while he pounds you, much more constructive imo...

 

So the Jugg lands and has 2-3 skills before unstoppable fades. One will be a snare, which you purge. If they snare again they have basically wasted two skills and their unstoppable is about to fade, opening them up to proper CC. Otherwise they get in 1-2 dps skills which won't be remotely close to killing you. If you want to get away stun them before you sprint. If they stunbreak to choke you, you stun break to whirlwind them.

 

I'm a heal/dps hybrid so I can actually wear down the warrior classes, but as you said, its better to just ignore them and do more important things.

[xenofire]

marauders aren't really the hardest class for a sorc,, they're middle of the road, pyro powertechs and assassins are the 2 classes in the "you don't have a chance" basket, juggernauts come next, then you'd slot in marauders.

 

Sorcs are great at PVP in my opinion; but if you try 1v1'ing anyone that's not another sorc, an operative healer, a marksman sniper, or an arsenal merc, you're doing it wrong. You can't win.

[Nostrom]

Sorcs are great at PVP in my opinion; You can't win.

 

fixed

[xenofire]

fixed

 

Sorcs are a great support class and as lightning you can do some crazy burst dps; with a marauder or jugg friend you can lock down and kill another teams healer before they can do anything about it. That's what pvp is really about anyways, teamwork-- not 1v1.

[Cempa]

You attack a target being attacked.

 

You CC either defensively or offensively and never forget that a puller will pull you after you use Force Speed and you WILL die -LoS.

 

You have no mitigation CDs.

 

You have laughable burst.

 

PvP DPS is low and all energy/kinetic is mitigated by armor.

 

You play a class that needs a pocket healer if you spec 31.

 

You play a class that is the least heroic in PvP.

[warultima]

You attack a target being attacked.

 

You CC either defensively or offensively and never forget that a puller will pull you after you use Force Speed and you WILL die -LoS.

 

You have no mitigation CDs.

 

You have laughable burst.

 

PvP DPS is low and all energy/kinetic is mitigated by armor.

 

You play a class that needs a pocket healer if you spec 31.

 

You play a class that is the least heroic in PvP.

 

In competent group vs group PvP the sorc, as the easiest class to focus down, usually require either a tank guarding or a pocket healer pampering him.

 

However you can still do OK in 1v1s as long as your enemy is not really good at his class unless hes another sage/sorc then you have a fair fight.

 

If you are good you can 1v1 any baddies of any class... you know those ones that usually claim that sorcs are ok.

[Fallerup]

Well am I the only one that thinks that is massively overpowered, considering that would give Juggs the insta-kill against something like a Sorc? unless the Sorc tried to escape?

 

you cannot use "jugg" or "Juggernaut" and "overpowered" in the same sentence without a "not" in between. Any good player may seem overpowered, no matter what class they play. I constantly hear how Concealment Ops say that their damage sucks, yet, a good Operative can stunlock me (rage juggernaut) to death. Tag team (2 Concealment Ops)? Dead in 3 seconds flat. If I manage to get the upper hand, they vanish like smart cowards , bad ones fight till they die.

 

There is nothing about Juggernauts that is even remotely Overpowered, not even unstoppable. it's 4 seconds we are talking about, that's not a lot. it even starts when we take off the ground, so the duration counts down while we are in flight while charging.

 

Unremitting/ Unstoppable starts when they begin their leap, not when they land. This mean they are able to get only two instant abilities before it expires. Also this applies only to Veng Juggs and Vilgilance Guardians as it is a third tier talent. These two specs rely on constant mid-level damage, and do not have the single ability burst that other classes/specs have. They are not insta-gibbing anyone.

 

If it applied to LOLSMASH Rage and Focus spec players I might agree that it is overpowered. In it's current form however I do not.

 

this. If I (rage Juggernaut) had unstoppable, I could 1 shot people with ease, even with the nerfed damage to rage tree.

 

I can take unstoppable, but then I'd lose force crush. that spec would look something like this:

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#101ZfMr0MZGrobdfRMc.1

 

I still get shockwave and all that lolsmash stuff however. But no free force screams.

Edited May 11, 2012 by Fallerup

[xenofire]

Sorc has one of the best escapes in the world, force speed.

[robozvir]

Sorc has one of the best escapes in the world, force speed.

 

which can be blocked by any possible CC in game... >_<

yeah... really! sorcs are still OP, nerf them down again please!

[RaugMoss]

I read it. I was correcting your inaccurate information.

 

I would also argue that having one less ability to use while under the effects of unstoppable makes a significant difference. One of the two abilities that he uses should be a snare, leaving him with one damaging ability. This ability will be either Sunder or Impale. Neither one of which should even break your bubble (unless there is a big gear difference or unless Impale crits).

 

If no snare is applied, this leaves you options to kite. If he decides to forgo the snare and use his force push into another leap. This gives him another two free moves, for a total of four abilities at the cost of all his mobility cool downs. You would be hurt, but you certainly would not be dead. This also gives you more kiting options.

 

Unstoppable has an overblown reputation on these forums. Is it nice? Of course. But it is not an "I win" ability against sage/sorcs. Find one in your guild and duel for awhile.

 

I really respect your attitude and your try in showing me a way to beat em after the charge, or push and charge. But the problem is, the sorcerer damage is so underpowered and it takes so long for us to down classes, that even though you do those things or situationally other things, and believe me, I duel ppl at outlaws den, did a LOT of pvp and have 31.5 days and counting playtime on my main, the juggernaut shakes off your damage and just kills you in the end. You prolong the fight, yes, but in the end, you die, with him having more than 30 to 50% hp.

 

So the Jugg lands and has 2-3 skills before unstoppable fades. One will be a snare, which you purge. If they snare again they have basically wasted two skills and their unstoppable is about to fade, opening them up to proper CC. Otherwise they get in 1-2 dps skills which won't be remotely close to killing you. If you want to get away stun them before you sprint. If they stunbreak to choke you, you stun break to whirlwind them.

 

I'm a heal/dps hybrid so I can actually wear down the warrior classes, but as you said, its better to just ignore them and do more important things.

 

I tried out 23-0-18 and 21-2-18, and yes, that spec beats juggernauts via healing+wearing down. But after one fight, your force pool would take a hit, and it's not really worth it to spend that much time in 1v1 when your team needs you to do other vital jobs as a sorcerer. Plus a hybrid cannot kill some other classes. For example, with some smart play, I can kill operative and sorcerer healers (mercenary healers are impossible, even 2 sorcerers struggle on that one). And yes, all my experience is based on 30+ days game-time ppl who pvps like crazy, and although I cannot vouch for their natural talent, I can certainly say they do what they are supposed to be doing at all times. A hybrid cannot be seen as a dps, its more of a healer and it also shows in numbers.

 

The bread and butter of the post: Sorcerer dps should have a slight chance against more classes when both classes are nicely geared (300 surge 500 crit rating adequate power, ranging from 250 to 500, adequate alacrity or adequate accuracy). Good geared ppl wipes me down, and thats when they decide to do so, and its annoying. My teammates can't save me sometimes, or they don't bother since I'll sprint back to them and cover up in a couple of seconds (situational).

 

Last note: Don't be a baddie, powertech pyro and tanks are beatable, though you have to burn all cds or all -1 to do so. Real problem: Geared marauders, juggernauts, assassins (you stand NO chance against these if not madness specced). Hard to beat: Concealment ops, lethality snipers, powertechs.

 

There isn't another class except a mercenary who is so underpowered in the rock paper scissors scheme in the game and this needs to be changed.