The future of KC/darkness (PVP)

[Devorasx]

I had a debate earlier regarding a change to Harnessed shadows/darkness, and in that thread people were arguing that shadows/assassins were going less into 31/10 due to its lack of damage, because it has low mitigation being the worse of the tanks, and people rolling more or better tanks (e.g guards/juggs) or dps (maras/sents)

 

Now due to those arguments im seeing nonetheless MORE 31/10 then any other non-proposed specs. And to be honest they are still performing very well due to contrary belief. Infiltration/deception is out there but they get trashed as soon as the yo-yo animation starts. Madness/Balance, well they are not much of a threat as they are as squichy as well, and hardly kill fast as this game has been more or less changed to.

 

So, that still leaves us with KC/darkness as the only viable pvp spec. But im curios as to what other good and efficient options besides 31/10 there is. The only one i can think of is a 24/Darkness/KC and 17 Madness/Balance.

 

Discuss please.

[Xinika]

I had a debate earlier regarding a change to Harnessed shadows/darkness, and in that thread people were arguing that shadows/assassins were going less into 31/10 due to its lack of damage, because it has low mitigation being the worse of the tanks, and people rolling more or better tanks (e.g guards/juggs) or dps (maras/sents)

 

Now due to those arguments im seeing nonetheless MORE 31/10 then any other non-proposed specs. And to be honest they are still performing very well due to contrary belief. Infiltration/deception is out there but they get trashed as soon as the yo-yo animation starts. Madness/Balance, well they are not much of a threat as they are as squichy as well, and hardly kill fast as this game has been more or less changed to.

 

So, that still leaves us with KC/darkness as the only viable pvp spec. But im curios as to what other good and efficient options besides 31/10 there is. The only one i can think of is a 24/Darkness/KC and 17 Madness/Balance.

 

Discuss please.

 

Okay, so, yeah for the most part we know that we almost have to be KC. However, I still see it possible to play infiltration but only under high-priority DPS 8-mans. Infil will definitely work well with Scrapper Scoundrels there to back them up. Scrapper being the initial opening burst and by the time that's done you should have 2x CS up for your burst, allowing you to finish a target. It's amazing how Lion and I work together really. Even with me as Infil, him and I can take on multiple foes. Balance will find a spot because I've said before: it's more an objective based spec. Even though you're a poorer choice than a Sent or Sage as Balance, you can still be a complete pest to the enemy team. KC is a great spec, but think of it as being more of a support spec. Problem with our DPS specs is the need for this tedious babysitting. At the end of the day, both our DPS specs are easily replaceable by other ACs that do not require the team to hold our hand.

 

I do not recommend Hybrid builds. They are gimmicky do not specialize in anything.

Edited April 20, 2012 by Xinika

[Devorasx]

But all you are saying shin is that we are completly useless in any spec besides playing support. Sure we can play synergy with other classes but we cant do jack **** alone without having help.

 

So my question still stands. What other spec can we go into besides 31/10, or full infil or full balance though the 2 latter ones is meager at best and you become more or less a liability if youre pugging.

 

suggestions?

[Xinika]

But all you are saying shin is that we are completly useless in any spec besides playing support. Sure we can play synergy with other classes but we cant do jack **** alone without having help.

Yeah? And for the most part, that's how it is. (DPS-Specs) You will not find a solo player at a node or door in high-end PvP, and even if you do, chances are it's a tank which can without a doubt either outlast you or get backup in time. Kinetic can obviously stand on it's own, but it's a double-whammy for KC. Seeing as you have such support and utility, you should either be defending (Sitting at a node/Fighting at a door) or supporting your team offensively. You, as a Shadow/Assassin have no reason to be wandering off the node solo regardless of any spec without backup.

 

So my question still stands. What other spec can we go into besides 31/10, or full infil or full balance though the 2 latter ones is meager at best and you become more or less a liability if youre pugging.

 

suggestions?

 

Balance

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#601McZRZfMfRrMkrfz.1

 

Infiltration

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#6010MZhGbRkGMbtzZf0c.1

 

This really comes down to your group setup. May I ask what your team is running?

Edited April 20, 2012 by Xinika

[Devorasx]

Oki something still doesnt make sense to me.

 

In competitive pvp, people wont play or bring an Infiltration/Deception or a Balance/Madness shadow/Assassin to the field due to being paper thin, it needs babysitting and other AC can perform their role 10 times better. So we are left with KC/Darkness. As i recall, numerous people in the Harnessed darkness/shadow thread are saying people are playing something different than 31/10 and leaving it for another spec. If not 31/10, nor the other trees due to being useless in competitive pvp, THEN WHAT?

[Devorasx]

This really comes down to your group setup. May I ask what your team is running?

 

1 Powertech/Pyro

1 Sorceres healing

1 Assassin hybrid

1 Juggernaut Immortal/Rage

[jbuschell]

I dunno I'm balance and I'm on a team that wrecks shop, we are all pvp vets and have played together through DAOC and wow, but I perform very well as balance, I do occasionally go kc depending what we have generally be queing against because some premades who let me do my thing in the past don't let me do that much anymore, so when I get trained I go kc even if it bores me to tears.

 

We run

 

Watchman sentinel

Iron fist vanguard

Balance/KC shadow

Sawbones scoundrel

 

For rateds we ll add our other team which is

 

Seer sage

Combat sentinel

Assault vanguard

Defense guardian

 

We've been mixing and matching recently to build cohesion between the 2 groups but we used to run emain macha together back in 2001, 8v100 easy lolz mez pbaoe lol

 

Anyway point is find a team, show them your skills in all specs and I'd they're cool they won't care, like I said only time I change is when the other team has a ***** for me because I feel detrimental to my team, but usually my sawbones keeps me up anyway

[Devorasx]

Since (said) people arent capable of telling me what other specs they consider better then 31/10, except the other trees (due to lack of viability in competing pvp), im going to assume they still play 31/10.

Hypocrit much?

[Payneintherear]

You have the answer right in front of you. There are a handful of people who refuse to accept the fact that Shadow tanks are only able to create a niche for themselves by being strong enough not to be a priority assist target and dish out enough damage to not be ignored while at the same time being able to support your team as a tank.

 

So basically, by playing 24/0/17, you are not going to be as self sufficient as 31/0/10, but at the same time, 31/0/10 isn't going to be lasting for a long time against the top dps classes currently in 1.2. anyway. 24/0/17 is a very good spec (actually to be honest I wonder why Xin doesn't play it, because looking at her videos, it's exactly the playstyle I would see the most fitting for her).

 

24/0/17 is a dynamic build with good damage capabilities, survivability and mobility. If you are focused, you are not going to last as long as a tank, but you aren't going to die as fast as a dps class either (well, we'll just ignore sentinels and marauders here).

[Anelyn]

I can't really put my finger on it, but there is a feeling of something missing with the current shadow / sins. Not as much with the class itself as with how it integrates in group play.

 

When I saw we won't have rated in 1.2, I parked my rank 73 shadow, and rerolled a jugg. It just feels so much more satisfying no matter if I play as tank or pure dps. Best aoe snare in game. Good aoe CC. Good single target CC. Good damage and mitigation / survival CDs. Great mobility. Force push is really nice. I just feel I can do a lot more to influence the pace of the game in warzones and the flow of the fights on my jugg than on my shadow.

 

I think shadows / sins need a small revamp and re-thought about their utility and overall performance. Stealth is good, but won't win games or help your team on it's own, so maybe they need an extra tool / utility?

[Payneintherear]

In order to make Shadows viable they'd need a lot more survivability and a leap on a 30s cooldown in Kinetic (with Adjucation requiring Force or Shadow Technique), a lot more sustained damage in Infiltration paired with a very powerful defensive CD for 5s and a decent amount of survivability on top of a unique utility (root alone is not enough, so that I'd probably make Pinning Resolve turn Force Stun into an AoE stun for 4s. I intentionally chose the AoE stun over the AoE mezz that other classes have access to, because given the playstyle of DoTing multiple targets, an AoE mezz would instantly break for this tree) in Balance. That's pretty much the whole story about Shadows. Edited April 22, 2012 by Payneintherear

[trakata]

A 31/0/10 shadow in tank gear is a scary, scary beast. You are not a dps monster. You are a utility monkey and heals protector, and a darn good one. The group that I tend to roll with consists of:

 

KC Shadow

Heals Trooper or Heals Sage

Dirty Fighting Scoundrel

Sawbones Scoundrel

 

You'd think having two healers would be a problem, but so far it has worked out exceedingly well. On Alderaan, Voidstar, and Novare Coast I take one of the healers (usually scoundrel so we both have stealth) and we can hold a point practically indefinitely. (Note that I run 50/50 tank and dps gear split, although I switch on more tank gear while defending). Our DPS scoundrel often solo caps points, in which case we have the other heals and the rest of the ops group come in to support. With the whole premade running together (e.g. huttball ball carrying), with two healers and two fairly damaging classes, we don't die. The KC shadow in full tank spec is incredibly versatile in these situations, and Slow Time provides benefits (damage debuffs, snares, hs throw proccing) that 24/0/17 simply does not.

 

Truth is, skill will matter more than anything. Practice with a spec--whatever you prefer--,gear up for specific situations, play with a well-coordinated group, and you will clean up warzones like nothing else.

[Payneintherear]

A 31/0/10 shadow in tank gear is a scary, scary beast. You are not a dps monster. You are a utility monkey and heals protector, and a darn good one.

 

This is so silly. You are protecting your healer with nothing that other tanks do not have. In fact they do it better because they have more mobility and CC for that job (unless you honestly believe that the 5% damage reduction from Slow Time is worth anything).

 

You have nothing more than the tank basics as KC when it comes to protecting somebody. You do, however, die much faster than other tanks.

[Plowd]

This is so silly. You are protecting your healer with nothing that other tanks do not have. In fact they do it better because they have more mobility and CC for that job (unless you honestly believe that the 5% damage reduction from Slow Time is worth anything).

 

You have nothing more than the tank basics as KC when it comes to protecting somebody. You do, however, die much faster than other tanks.

 

Lol... I assume you left out the 30% snare and 5 targets from slow time to bolster your statement of Slow Time being worthless, I completely disagree! I personally go back and forth depending on who I am rolling with between 31/0/10 & 27/1/13, both are beast!

Edited April 22, 2012 by Plowd

[Payneintherear]

Lol... I assume you left out the 30% snare and 5 targets from slow time to bolster your statement of Slow Time being worthless, I completely disagree! I personally go back and forth depending on who I am rolling with between 31/0/10 & 27/1/13, both are beast!

 

You do realize that a 30% AoE snare on a 7.5s CD is actually sub-par in comparison to what other tanks have to offer? I hope you didn't think this was something unique or stellar.

[NeverRose]

Lol... I assume you left out the 30% snare and 5 targets from slow time to bolster your statement of Slow Time being worthless, I completely disagree! I personally go back and forth depending on who I am rolling with between 31/0/10 & 27/1/13, both are beast!

 

 

 

Before you slur all over our "amazing utility", try playing guardian first.

 

 

Then come back here mate, realizing how wrong you've been. ;]

 

 

Shadow is an amazing 1 vs 1 class and...That's it. For group play there are better dps and better tank classes, period.

[Plowd]

Before you slur all over our "amazing utility", try playing guardian first.

 

 

Then come back here mate, realizing how wrong you've been. ;]

 

 

Shadow is an amazing 1 vs 1 class and...That's it. For group play there are better dps and better tank classes, period.

 

I stand corrected, I'd like to take time to apologize for " Slurring" Just went and played guardian they are amazing! I have been so wrong.

[trakata]

Since we are in a Shadow forum, please do elaborate on the epic utility that the Guardian tank brings to the table. Outside of Huttball (a broken game in itself), I have yet to see it.

 

My point wasn't that Shadows are better tanks than the others. My point is that all 3 tanks are viable, with player skill and group cohesion being the key to success. Instead of worrying about what class you have to reroll every time a patch rolls around, master your favorite one and go win some warzones.

[Upathealmighty]

Heres the reality,

 

Shadows are like the black sheep of the SWTOR universe. everyone and anyone can do what we do but better.

 

its almost like shadows were the last class designed and fully thought out and they jsut said "lets just give them a little bit of everyone" sounded good on paper but the reality is that shadows really lack int he balancing department because of what other classes have over us.

 

Especially now with the current changes too the other classes and even in 1.2 shadows litterally got 4 whole sentences in the changelog.

 

i hope our time to be FOTM month comes soon

[NeverRose]

I stand corrected, I'd like to take time to apologize for " Slurring" Just went and played guardian they are amazing! I have been so wrong.

 

Good boy ;o

 

 

 

Heres the reality,

 

Shadows are like the black sheep of the SWTOR universe. everyone and anyone can do what we do but better.

 

its almost like shadows were the last class designed and fully thought out and they jsut said "lets just give them a little bit of everyone" sounded good on paper but the reality is that shadows really lack int he balancing department because of what other classes have over us.

 

Especially now with the current changes too the other classes and even in 1.2 shadows litterally got 4 whole sentences in the changelog.

 

i hope our time to be FOTM month comes soon

 

Exactly my point. We are jack of all trades (At least as KC), which works well in 1 vs 1 or pug enviroment, but for group play you want specialists. That's how it is and always will be in every MMO.

 

About the FOTM part....Nah, I kinda like shadow where it is (granted I play KC 90% of the time, infil and balance could use some love deifnitely. My point is - Shadow is playable.) and I highly doubt they'll give us some flashy CC/better defensive cooldowns anytime soon. I don't think they have any idea how to design this class. It's some sort of weird combination between stealthing tank (da***) with pretty unreliable self-heals (Okay?), bad survavibility and okayish damage+CC. Balance is stealthy "semi-kiter"/skirmisher type with mixed abilities' ranges. Infil is the closest to typical rogue archetype (And when I rolled shadow that's how I imagined it - A freaking WAR:AoR witch elf) with laughable survavibility and backloaded melee burst.

 

 

Note that I'am doing well on my Shadow and I wouldn't mind if they touch it or not (eventhough changes are needed) as a experienced PvP player I'll adapt to anything. It doesn't change the fact though, that they could sit down and think for a while, what the hell have they done to this class ;]

Edited April 23, 2012 by NeverRose

[jedijive]

im a kc shadow. and i dont lose duels. or warzones.

 

qualia

[Hethroin]

I run 24/0/17. It is a better guard bot for a dps class than it is for a healer. You lack AE CC, but you make up for it in other utility. The damage is about 70% of a real DPS class, the burst is not that great unless the target is below 30%.

 

Instant lift is nice as well as FiB. I prefer these along with high DS numbers over Harnessed TK Throw and Slow Time.

[thismat]

Just to chime in here. (OHAI DEVORAS, Caelinn says stop vanishing).

 

I have run KC combat since 50, I switch specs now and then but the utility is just too much since I pretty much always have someone to guard.

 

There are mods out there to stack power on BM gear that can be obtained quickly and easily with the new patch. I am sitting on 1100+ Expertise with 750-ish force bonus damage as a full 31/0/10, and my TK Throws with 3 stacks on Sages/Sorcs/Low Expertise players tick for 2k+, and I'm getting close to my 5k medal almost every WZ.

 

Maybe I'm missing something you guys can enlighten me too, but I don't lose duels unless I mess up my own CDs, I burst hard, I CAN kill healers solo. I know I'm not even close to the dps of a sentinel, but a sentinel can't guard, stealth, taunt. Oh, and when I'm running with groups, we win, a LOT.

 

So what am I missing? The future of KC is pretty bright when you mod it right. I think I might be the only Shadow who actually loves playing KC and isn't bored with it, simply because it's so versatile.

[MiaRB]

Just to chime in here. (OHAI DEVORAS, Caelinn says stop vanishing).

 

 

So what am I missing? The future of KC is pretty bright when you mod it right. I think I might be the only Shadow who actually loves playing KC and isn't bored with it, simply because it's so versatile.

 

what you are missing is, once we get into ranked WZs KC/Darkness spec will be in low demand. DPS geared KC specs and funky hybrid non tank KC specs will not be viable or wanted on any good team. true KC tanks, in tank gear and who understand how to play the spec as a pvp tank will still be good. but good teams will not be carring lots of tanks and because there are so many KC/Darkness specs around, as well as way to many people that are tank speced in genera... most wont find spots on good teams and will have to switch to inf or balance spec or be stuck playing pugs.

[thismat]

what you are missing is, once we get into ranked WZs KC/Darkness spec will be in low demand. DPS geared KC specs and funky hybrid non tank KC specs will not be viable or wanted on any good team. true KC tanks, in tank gear and who understand how to play the spec as a pvp tank will still be good. but good teams will not be carring lots of tanks and because there are so many KC/Darkness specs around, as well as way to many people that are tank speced in genera... most wont find spots on good teams and will have to switch to inf or balance spec or be stuck playing pugs.

 

You claim this won't work in rated WZs, yet you have no proof to back that up. Theory is great, and fun, but it doesn't always ring true.

 

What I have experienced so far getting to 80+ valor as a KC shadow in stalker power modded gear:

 

Pre 1.2 : With any healer of my choosing we were unkillable without 5-7 people, and even then if we had good dps we would outlast them, add another healer and we never dropped.

 

Post 1.2 : More or less the same situation, unless there are 3-6 lolsmash spec sentinels. Even against that it though the TTK us is still long and they will lose at least 2 people in the process, add in good dps, and we come out on top.

 

I can take 60-70% of someones life in the time it takes a sentinel to setup lolsmash (which by this time I am not in range for but still in range to guard my healer, oh and the sentinels are taunted and have the slow time debuff up 5% still counts for something), healers aren't just standing there taking a pounding either, they have abilities to reduce the damage they take and also to CC.

 

Yeah I'm a little bit optimistic, but I base it on the experience I have gained, not on theory of what is to come. If things don't work out, I have plenty of BM+ alts I can use instead, but until then I will remain positive that my winning power can and will translate over to rated.