1.2.0c Ninja Arsenal Nerf?

[LukeStormstout]

Tracer missile applies a heat signature, reducing the armor rating by 4% for 15 seconds. It is not working. No armor reduction debuff is being applied. Please fix this bug as soon as possible.

[Wrestle]

Tracer missile applies a heat signature, reducing the armor rating by 4% for 15 seconds. It is not working. No armor reduction debuff is being applied. Please fix this bug as soon as possible.

 

Possibly on the 27th patch? My bet is that they don't fix it. I'll bet anyone 20k that they don't fix it. Who is in?

[Kit-zu]

................ Edited June 19, 2012 by Kit-zu

[Macroecon]

This is the silliest thing I've ever read.

 

They don't want to drive people out of classes because "too many people are playing them". In a subscription based game, there is no such thing as too many people playing anything. Generally when you piss people off enough to stop playing their character, they don't start another character - they simply quit the game.

 

Conspiracy theories can be fun, but this one is just plain stupid.

 

Thanks for displaying your lack of reading comprehension. My post did not claim that BW is motivated by a desire to drive people out of classes. My post did claim that when players migrate in and out of classes that this will impact the average productivity of those classes. And that because of this, BW's penchant for using ingame statistics to drive class balancing is flawed.

[LukeStormstout]

After some testing in pve and pvp it seems as if they have not fixed what the 1.2c patch did. I might be wrong, but this is what it seems like still. I have filed yet another bug report. I hope they answer all these threads at some point. A change to a bugged HSM is one thing, but it seems like all damage has changed since 1.2b.

[Calavero]

Thanks for displaying your lack of reading comprehension. My post did not claim that BW is motivated by a desire to drive people out of classes. My post did claim that when players migrate in and out of classes that this will impact the average productivity of those classes. And that because of this, BW's penchant for using ingame statistics to drive class balancing is flawed.

Yep, you're right about my misconstruing your post. That's what I get for posting before drinking my morning coffee, instead of after. I are dumb.

 

That being said, I think Bioware places far less emphasis on player generated statistics than they do on their own internally generated metrics. There was a huge thread on the PTR forum about Sniper DPS being broken prior to 1.2's release. There were hundreds of posts essentially saying Snipers DPS was broken, logs were posted, theorycrafting was done... at the end of it all, there was a series of BW posts effectively saying "our internal tests show Snipers capable of generating DPS ahead of even where we want them to be. Also, learn to play".

 

Sure enough, after 1.2 went live people started generating some staggering DPS parses. In response to this, Bioware slightly buffed the Sniper spec that was lagging behind.

 

I understand what you're accusing Bioware of doing now, but aside from the fact that doing that would be... well idiotic (in any game where you have a large number of players, you have to balance around "best theoretical DPS", because you can always assume there are players that are going to achieve that DPS) - from what I've observed so far, they really aren't doing what you claim, even though at times it might appear that they are.

 

What's going to be interesting is seeing whether this whole recent phenomenon going on in the forums after 1.2c is just another version of what happened in that thread about Snipers. I have yet to see any concrete evidence whatsoever that Arsenal Mercs are broken in PVE - just a lot of entirely anecdotal poster-feeding-next-poster whining... in fact, I'm starting to see evidence that they are doing a little less damage then before, but are sitting just fine at or near the top of the meters.

 

I'm thinking we might see a little teeny balancing buff sometime soon, but that's about it. Time will tell, I guess.

[LukeStormstout]

Yep, you're right about my misconstruing your post. That's what I get for posting before drinking my morning coffee, instead of after. I are dumb.

 

That being said, I think Bioware places far less emphasis on player generated statistics than they do on their own internally generated metrics. There was a huge thread on the PTR forum about Sniper DPS being broken prior to 1.2's release. There were hundreds of posts essentially saying Snipers DPS was broken, logs were posted, theorycrafting was done... at the end of it all, there was a series of BW posts effectively saying "our internal tests show Snipers capable of generating DPS ahead of even where we want them to be. Also, learn to play".

 

Sure enough, after 1.2 went live people started generating some staggering DPS parses. In response to this, Bioware slightly buffed the Sniper spec that was lagging behind.

 

I understand what you're accusing Bioware of doing now, but aside from the fact that doing that would be... well idiotic (in any game where you have a large number of players, you have to balance around "best theoretical DPS", because you can always assume there are players that are going to achieve that DPS) - from what I've observed so far, they really aren't doing what you claim, even though at times it might appear that they are.

 

What's going to be interesting is seeing whether this whole recent phenomenon going on in the forums after 1.2c is just another version of what happened in that thread about Snipers. I have yet to see any concrete evidence whatsoever that Arsenal Mercs are broken in PVE - just a lot of entirely anecdotal poster-feeding-next-poster whining... in fact, I'm starting to see evidence that they are doing a little less damage then before, but are sitting just fine at or near the top of the meters.

 

I'm thinking we might see a little teeny balancing buff sometime soon, but that's about it. Time will tell, I guess.

 

A large amount of damage has been lost due to what they did in 1.2c. We did more damage in 1.2b with all skills even with the nerfs. I am not talking about HSM either. All our damage has gone down. We have sent bug reports to them and parses the same way snipers did. They have not responded to us at all.

[Poe_]

A large amount of damage has been lost due to what they did in 1.2c. We did more damage in 1.2b with all skills even with the nerfs. I am not talking about HSM either. All our damage has gone down. We have sent bug reports to them and parses the same way snipers did. They have not responded to us at all.

Well, they did respond, they continued to reference the "balancing" they did following HSM interacting with unforseen mechanics. As for snipers, the dev tracker said that a + to some damage was coming shortly after the patch, all along. The 5% on a few talents, given the spec, increases dps by only about 3-4% according to most rotations (this is from the sniper forums mind you, and it seems to make sense - as followthrough, snipe, sos, etc. that were buffed slightly make up perhaps 50% of dps output, note, no aoe was buffed at all).

 

So having said that, they've replied, and it's just not what we want to hear. In BW's opinion, working as intended.

 

Oh and don't be so excited about the Sniper buffs, really, they are not so amazing - we'll take 'em, but they ain't the bees knees.

[LukeStormstout]

Well, they did respond, they continued to reference the "balancing" they did following HSM interacting with unforseen mechanics. As for snipers, the dev tracker said that a + to some damage was coming shortly after the patch, all along. The 5% on a few talents, given the spec, increases dps by only about 3-4% according to most rotations (this is from the sniper forums mind you, and it seems to make sense - as followthrough, snipe, sos, etc. that were buffed slightly make up perhaps 50% of dps output, note, no aoe was buffed at all).

 

So having said that, they've replied, and it's just not what we want to hear. In BW's opinion, working as intended.

 

Oh and don't be so excited about the Sniper buffs, really, they are not so amazing - we'll take 'em, but they ain't the bees knees.

 

Thank you for posting. I was not insulting snipers in any way. I agree they needed a buff. I was just stating we were not being talked to by the developers. If what you posted is correct. It seems that not only did they fix a bugged version of HSM; they also nerfed all our damage without telling us exactly what was changed. Thank you very much. Have a good day.

Edited April 28, 2012 by LukeStormstout

[Macroecon]

Possibly on the 27th patch? My bet is that they don't fix it. I'll bet anyone 20k that they don't fix it. Who is in?

 

The only way they will fix it is if they nerf other abilities correspondingly to keep Arsenal dps down. They already are on record as stating that the classes are roughly outputting where they want them to be. So a bug fix that buffs Arsenal will need to be counterbalanced.

 

Over time, there will be a continued migration away from Merc dps which will leave the subclasses ever more dominated by very experienced, very well geared players who have too much invested in their toons to quit them. That will drive Merc productivity higher and cause yet more nerfs. This same phenomenon will also start affecting Sorc dps.

 

Doubt me? It's already in the planning stages for the next patch. Zoeller is on record as saying that they want to raise TTK. Raising TTK without corresponding class adjustments simply increases the percentage of time the fight occurs at close range. Which is a melee buff and a ranged dps nerf. We are only midway through the melee buffing process. Only after the demographic bulge of new melee players is fully geared up and competent with their toons will meta averages for melee dps start rising.

[Calavero]

A large amount of damage has been lost due to what they did in 1.2c. We did more damage in 1.2b with all skills even with the nerfs. I am not talking about HSM either. All our damage has gone down. We have sent bug reports to them and parses the same way snipers did. They have not responded to us at all.

The problem here is that, as has been mentioned, Bioware has already stated that Arsenal's damage is fine... yet all anyone is posting to contradict them are statements like "all our damage has gone down", "I hear we're doing 2/3 the damage of every other class in operations", "my shots are hitting for less than the tooltip!!!1! ***", and so on. Unfortunately, without anything more than that it's effectively just random complaining.

 

If people want Bioware to respond, post some logs showing you have the same gear as others, are doing to rotation properly (which shouldn't be hard at all, heh), and are incapable of doing the same damage.

 

Unfortunately, no one is doing that. I've seen dozens of dummy parses, with numbers posted putting Mercs right exactly where other DPS classes are posting they are (except usually with a note that those other classes are parsing 300 DPS higher). There's one Ops parse floating around these forums of a HM boss kill where the top DPS spot is a Pyro Merc, and three of the next four spots are filled by Arsenal Mercs.

 

Again, I'm not saying there isn't a problem, just that I'm a math guy (former min/maxing progression WoW raider and EJ poster, until I left there to come here) - and all I'm seeing right now is that this game has a community that's VERY vocal about nerfs of any kind, no matter how large or small... and what little data I'm able to find is kind of pointing towards there not actually being a problem. Well, in PVE anyway.

[LukeStormstout]

The problem here is that, as has been mentioned, Bioware has already stated that Arsenal's damage is fine... yet all anyone is posting to contradict them are statements like "all our damage has gone down", "I hear we're doing 2/3 the damage of every other class in operations", "my shots are hitting for less than the tooltip!!!1! ***", and so on. Unfortunately, without anything more than that it's effectively just random complaining.

 

If people want Bioware to respond, post some logs showing you have the same gear as others, are doing to rotation properly (which shouldn't be hard at all, heh), and are incapable of doing the same damage.

 

Unfortunately, no one is doing that. I've seen dozens of dummy parses, with numbers posted putting Mercs right exactly where other DPS classes are posting they are (except usually with a note that those other classes are parsing 300 DPS higher). There's one Ops parse floating around these forums of a HM boss kill where the top DPS spot is a Pyro Merc, and three of the next four spots are filled by Arsenal Mercs.

 

Again, I'm not saying there isn't a problem, just that I'm a math guy (former min/maxing progression WoW raider and EJ poster, until I left there to come here) - and all I'm seeing right now is that this game has a community that's VERY vocal about nerfs of any kind, no matter how large or small... and what little data I'm able to find is kind of pointing towards there not actually being a problem. Well, in PVE anyway.

 

I agree with you completely. This is why I have stated to post parses; links to screenshots of damage before and after the patches. We need to show them the evidence. This is an example http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=422643&page=6. I have sent them two bug reports with my information just to get a generic response. Every time I have been told this ticket has been escalated to the developer team. Also, as was stated in another post it might not matter because they might have done the additional stealth nerfs on purpose. At this point I just would like them to reply what was changed and why.

Edited April 28, 2012 by LukeStormstout

[tavrinDosa]

I dont understand why they would even keep it the way it has become, the popular vote is clearly against it and they are going to get a lot more haters out of this than anything. its just a bad move to keep it as is...

[Macroecon]

I dont understand why they would even keep it the way it has become, the popular vote is clearly against it and they are going to get a lot more haters out of this than anything. its just a bad move to keep it as is...

 

People are stubborn. It's human nature.

 

I'm stubborn and keep playing my Merc Pyro in PvP.

 

You're stubborn and keep posting in this forum even though it has no effect.

 

The devs are stubborn and refuse to give up their use of ingame meta averages to drive class (im)balance changes.

 

Like I said, it's human nature.

[Calavero]

The devs are stubborn and refuse to give up their use of ingame meta averages to drive class (im)balance changes.

Since you persist in pounding this hypothesis into the ground in literally every post you make, I have to ask: what is your basis for this claim? Have someone from Bioware specifically stated somewhere that that's how they're balancing their game, or did you just decide on your own that that's what they're doing?

[RiChess]

All I know is that during my raids my TMs hit for 2.2k on average, and fully buffed HS normally hits for about 1.8-2k. Highest I've seen from it was 3.3k. I dropped it from my build. Put the extra 3 points into the other trees. Edited April 30, 2012 by RiChess

[XavinNydek]

All I know is that during my raids my TMs hit for 2.2k on average, and fully buffed HS normally hits for about 1.8-2k. Highest I've seen from it was 3.3k. I dropped it from my build. Put the extra 3 points into the other trees.

HS is a consistent 2.3k-2.8k, while TM is only in that range if it crits. Still, there are plenty of crit TMs in my logs that out-damage HS. I don't think it makes sense to remove it from the rotation, but it definitely isn't what you would expect from a 31 point ability anymore, it's pretty anemic. I don't expect the 8k hits to come back, but it needs to be buffed back up to where it makes sense. It shouldn't be necessary to consider whether to drop it, it's supposed to be the impressive big hit that pays off getting all of those debuffs on target...

Edited May 8, 2012 by XavinNydek

[MrSIlverSurfing]

Yeah Heatseeker is just plain rediculous at the moment for a DPS class.

[StaticJoe]

I dont understand why they would even keep it the way it has become, the popular vote is clearly against it and they are going to get a lot more haters out of this than anything. its just a bad move to keep it as is...

 

 

The devs do not play Arsenal Mercs so they have absolutely no clue whatsoever as to how the class functions...plus, they could not care less--in their purple haze are you experienced little worlds it's all "working as intended" again because they don't play the class...I shelved my level 38 Arsenal Merc to grind my MM Sniper and my Deception Assassin

[Macroecon]

Since you persist in pounding this hypothesis into the ground in literally every post you make, I have to ask: what is your basis for this claim? Have someone from Bioware specifically stated somewhere that that's how they're balancing their game, or did you just decide on your own that that's what they're doing?

 

BW has stated that they have ingame statistical data collection. They have stated that they use this data to track class performance. And they have stated that the class changes they have made are to move subclass dps (for instance) towards their desired targets. Are you seriously contesting this?

 

The only supposition is with regards to how much player migration affects subclass meta averages. However it doesn't take a genius to realize that when you nerf a class, the people most likely to leave are those that find their toon untenable - i.e. those at the bottom end of the productivity spectrum whether due to lower skill or lower gear. And that will, a priori, result in in higher subclass meta average productivity for the surviving cohort.

 

And so I ask you, how else do YOU explain the baffling decision to nerf Concealment Operatives twice? And the decision to nerf Arsenal Merc twice? The only logical explanation is that the first nerf raised, not lowered meta class averages due to this survivor effect. Similarly how can you explain the stated desire of the devs to buff melee yet again, even after the already puzzling buffs in 1.2? The only rational explanation is that BW is looking at declining melee subclass meta averages - caused by player migration into those subclasses.

[Wrestle]

It's sad to see a company destroying their own game.

[Mrip]

The only rational explanation is that BW is looking at declining melee subclass meta averages - caused by player migration into those subclasses.

 

This idea that they buff classes because more players are playing those classes is not rational.That would either result in everyone playing one class that steamrolls the others, or there are many other factors being considered that completely destroy the argument.

 

I realize that you're trying to be precise but reading Kant is actually harder than reading plain English.

[MrSIlverSurfing]

 

 

The devs do not play Arsenal Mercs so they have absolutely no clue whatsoever as to how the class functions...plus, they could not care less--in their purple haze are you experienced little worlds it's all "working as intended" again because they don't play the class...I shelved my level 38 Arsenal Merc to grind my MM Sniper and my Deception Assassin

 

Do developers don't even play 50s man. Check out the one guy on the TGN inverview. His operative isn't even 50. He even said his least favorite class was the BH. That PR guy, although charismatic isn't getting a xmas card from me. lol

[MrSIlverSurfing]

This idea that they buff classes because more players are playing those classes is not rational.That would either result in everyone playing one class that steamrolls the others, or there are many other factors being considered that completely destroy the argument.

 

I realize that you're trying to be precise but reading Kant is actually harder than reading plain English.

 

I honestly think you are accurate. This is the only rational explanation that I can think of. Either way I only have a few days left on this sub to QQ. I would QQ in the Tera forums, but not many people there. Looks like they are playing the game atm, which I can't do at work. Maybe if they fix the merc in the next few months and give me a free 7 day pass to try out the changes? Then I would still have to take the time to reinstall SWTOR.

[Calavero]

And so I ask you, how else do YOU explain the baffling decision to nerf Concealment Operatives twice? And the decision to nerf Arsenal Merc twice? The only logical explanation is that the first nerf raised, not lowered meta class averages due to this survivor effect. Similarly how can you explain the stated desire of the devs to buff melee yet again, even after the already puzzling buffs in 1.2? The only rational explanation is that BW is looking at declining melee subclass meta averages - caused by player migration into those subclasses.

 

Pretty easily, actually. They had problems with Concealment Ops' burst and overnerfed it, while thinking (possibly incorrectly), that their sustained DPS was still capable of being good. They even stated this, in some post somewhere that I read. The double nerf of Arsenal is also easily explained. Arsenal DPS was adjusted in 1.2, which resulted in a slight lowering of DPS. A subsequent bugfix had the side effect of lowering it further. Though the individual hit numbers for HSM are dissapointing to see fly up the combat text, the overall sustained DPS numbers, while a bit lower, are still very withing acceptable ranges.

 

Also, there is no "stated desire to buff melee". I believe what you're referring to (as indicated by your earlier post) is their stated desire to lengthen "time to kill" in PVP - which could just as easily be seen as a buff to ranged classes (giving them a bigger window to survive melee or use an escape mechanism), or a buff to healers (giving them a bigger window to use channels and cooldown abilities). Here you're drawing your own conclusion based on an open-ended statement - then drawing a pretty out-there conclusion based on your first rather out-there conclusion.

 

That's the thing about conspiracy theories: one man's "only logical explanation" is another man's "totally ridiculous idea". The shortest distance between two points is a straight line - you might want to try using that thought process. It makes more sense, and what the devs have actually stated about their motivations supports it a whole lot better..