1.2 What are we good for?

[Desist]

Why play a Vanguard? What do we do that no other class does?

 

I'm only asking because for PvP, I think we are the worst tank class. We have the worst defensive cooldowns in the game. For DPS other classes do it better. We don't have stealth, so everything we do is completely obvious. Theoretically we can kite, but only to an extent. Sages do a way better job at kiting. We get a whopping two stuns one of which is very short. So it's super obvious which stun to trinket out of. Unless you are specced into tactics the cooldowns are pretty long on those. Harpoon is fun but tankassins have a pull that does the same thing.

 

I play an Assault Vanguard with full battlemaster and a critcrafted warhero piece and I feel more useful in PvP on my guardian alt with way crappier gear.

[Codename_Quincy]

best pvp tank tbh. easy to keep your guard in range of a healer. unless you're a flighty tank

[Desist]

The Vanguard's slow depends on ion cell procs. It's really only single target. You still only get 2 stuns. Other than being able to minimally attack at a distance, which shadow/assassins can do too, how are you better than a guardian or shadow tank at protecting your healer?

[Vintal]

I suggest you try Taugrim's Iron Fist spec and read up on it. Full DPS gear with a shield. 3k stock strike crits with a good survivability. Can Shadow Tank's storm? Didn't think so. Probably my favorite ability of them all and it also has a 1 second root effect.

 

People will love/hate you in Huttball.

[Mordekaizer]

I suggest you try Taugrim's Iron Fist spec and read up on it. Full DPS gear with a shield. 3k stock strike crits with a good survivability. Can Shadow Tank's storm? Didn't think so. Probably my favorite ability of them all and it also has a 1 second root effect.

 

People will love/hate you in Huttball.

 

 

^ THIS ^

 

im running my own version of IRON FIST since 1.2 came in.

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#801GMGrbororMZMsr0o.1

 

I can pop a Sorcs bubble with 1 Stockstrike but still damage them with around 300 - 500

 

with full BM combat tech gear and about to grab my first War Hero gear later.

 

Vangurads and Powertechs are the most flexible tank in SW:TOR

[DweezillKagemand]

Assault Specialist or scared.

[ahnog]

At 50, I find the Vanguard to be a very good tank, with a simple rotation to retain aggro. You are specced wrong to be a tank. You spec is a dps build.

[me_unknown]

The Vanguard's slow depends on ion cell procs. It's really only single target. You still only get 2 stuns. Other than being able to minimally attack at a distance, which shadow/assassins can do too, how are you better than a guardian or shadow tank at protecting your healer?

 

i hear a lot of "only". you ever considered the amount of tools we have? play an iron fist like build and be the most usefull class in all warzones while having one of the best surviability and still good damage.

 

though, if you do not see how extremly good a vanguard is than most probably it does not fit your playstyle. in this case you should look for another class that suits you more. a class can only be as good as it fits your style of play (of course also your skills, but i assume here it is not your lack of skills).

[Husofanten]

thats a lie... we dont have many tools compared to other classes.

Even a sentinel can hold out longer than we can.

[Hethroin]

thats a lie... we dont have many tools compared to other classes.

Even a sentinel can hold out longer than we can.

 

A sentinel can "hold out" longer than anyone can. What is your point?

 

As far as PVP tanking goes using the IF spec a Vanguard has:

Better mitigation than the shadow.

6 second interrupt compared to 12 seconds.

Shorter CD on pull, that also roots the target.

Ranged AE taunt, compared to the shadow's PBAE.

Storm is miles ahead of force speed from a tanking perspective, worse as an escape tool.

[Philosomanic]

Why play a Vanguard? What do we do that no other class does?

 

I'm only asking because for PvP, I think we are the worst tank class. We have the worst defensive cooldowns in the game. For DPS other classes do it better. We don't have stealth, so everything we do is completely obvious. Theoretically we can kite, but only to an extent. Sages do a way better job at kiting. We get a whopping two stuns one of which is very short. So it's super obvious which stun to trinket out of. Unless you are specced into tactics the cooldowns are pretty long on those. Harpoon is fun but tankassins have a pull that does the same thing.

 

I play an Assault Vanguard with full battlemaster and a critcrafted warhero piece and I feel more useful in PvP on my guardian alt with way crappier gear.

The Vanguard's slow depends on ion cell procs. It's really only single target. You still only get 2 stuns. Other than being able to minimally attack at a distance, which shadow/assassins can do too, how are you better than a guardian or shadow tank at protecting your healer?

 

Okay, I can answer this as my main is a level 50 Shadow. I'm a knowledgeable player, and an active forum contributor. Let's go through this point-by-point.

 

Utility

This is a huge advantage to Vanguards. I love how you say that we get "a whopping two stuns". Well, Shadows also only get two stuns. We each have the generic 4s stun. Vanguards get a crazy good AoE stun. Shadows get a single-target 2s stun. So Vanguards win in terms of stuns.

 

Vanguard's pull is better. It has a 10s shorter cooldown (w/talent), and a root effect (w/talent). Also, all Vanguards get Harpoon. Shadows only get Force Pull by going deep into tank spec. Vanguards have a better closer, too. Storm allows you to reach any target you can see within range. A shadow's Force Speed only increases their movement speed, meaning they really can't close in Huttball. Even on flat ground, it's slower than Storm (and on a lower cooldown!).

 

Vanguards and Shadows our equal in terms of debuffs. Vanguard AoE taunt is ranged, making it far easier to use. Also, our damage debuffs are better. We get Static Field for -4% damage, and Smoke Grenade for -20% accuracy (huge against some classes!). Shadows get an AoE -5% accuracy, and an AoE -5% damage. Shadows have an AoE 30% slow, but their single-target -50% slow has a 6s duration and 12s cooldown, and requires using a GCD. Vanguards don't have an AoE slow, but we have a single-target slow that happens automatically from attacking normally.

 

 

 

Defenses

Vanguards have better slightly better defenses when comparing tank spec. Shadows have cooldowns that give a burst of high defense, but it's unreliable. They have one that gives +50% deflection, but that doesn't work on a good number of attacks. Their other cleanses effects, and gives 3s (5s with talent) of tech/force immunity. Our Reactive Shield works against everything, and has a nice, long duration. We're also more reliant on shielding and mitigation, and less reliant on defense rate. This means that we're much less likely to take a huge spike of damage thanks to bad RNG luck.

 

When comparing DPS specs, Vanguard wins by a longshot. For one thing, we have significantly higher defenses just from heavy armor, and our cooldowns are a lot better. Reactive Shield and Adrenaline Rush actually have incredibly low cooldowns in Assault spec, and Tactics takes less damage while stunned (huge!). Also, we can attack at range if needed. The only advantage Shadows have here is the ability to stealth.

 

 

 

Attack

I'd place Vanguard and Shadow at roughly equal in terms of attack, but with very different styles. One thing is key. Shadows are not a ranged class. They have a cooldown that increases the crit chance of the next two force attacks by 60% (massive burst!), but they can choose to use that to make a moderate channeled attack 30m ranged. So they can only attack at 30m by wasting an incredibly strong burst cooldown. They can do a little damage from 10m, but are required to be within melee range to be anywhere near full damage. They rely on melee procs to greatly enhance 10m ranged skills. Vanguards can easily do 80% DPS or more from 10m range, and a good amount from 30m.

 

Shadows, especially when comparing tanks specs, are better at bursting. For a Vanguard to pull even close to the same amount of burst, they have to dump a lot of ammo, which leaves them hurting until the fight is over. Shadows have a steady resource regeneration rate, so dumping all their force doesn't hurt them at all. However, their high melee burst (especially when Infiltration specced) is balanced by the fact that they have to be in melee range while wearing a bathrobe.

 

 

 

I just recently started playing my Vanguard, and I have to say I'm loving it. I don't even have all my basic tools (like Harpoon, Riot Strike, or High Friction Bolts/Ionic Accelerator), but I still enjoy it more than my Shadow. This is largely because Assault Vanguard fits my playstyle perfectly. However, I can say with confidence that they're both incredibly viable classes. If you're doing badly on your Vanguard, it's a playstyle issue rather than a class issue. I suggest you go actually give Shadow a try. I almost guarantee you'll be missing your Vanguard like crazy. And if not, then congrats on finding the class that fits you.

[jbuschell]

I too play a balance shadow as my main, I also have a 36 scrapper scoundrel and my 21 assault vanguard who has become my main alt, at 21 I'm already easily eclipsing 230k+, now yes shadow tanks can be a little cheesy because of how redicilous 3 stacks of harnessed shadows + a stimmed and adrenaled force potency telekentic throw can be, I've busted out 9k Dmg with it before back when I was tank spec, but that's dps, when it comes to actual tanking a KC shadow really sucks, as a dps I will say easily the shadow wins against all tanks, but throw guard on someone and get no heals you will drop fricking quick.

 

Anyway im loving my vanguard, I need to get better with ammo management, but boy I hit pretty hard for my level, we ll see if I ever attain some of my shadows numbers when my VG is 50, but as it stands this class is fun

[Husofanten]

A sentinel can "hold out" longer than anyone can. What is your point?

 

As far as PVP tanking goes using the IF spec a Vanguard has:

Better mitigation than the shadow.

6 second interrupt compared to 12 seconds.

Shorter CD on pull, that also roots the target.

Ranged AE taunt, compared to the shadow's PBAE.

Storm is miles ahead of force speed from a tanking perspective, worse as an escape tool.

 

Yeah... tanking, there you are.

But the vanquard has 2 dd trees which have a damn low survivability compared to other damage classes who also make more damage.

Edited April 19, 2012 by Husofanten

[DacRycar]

Even with a full 31-point Shield spec, a Vanguard can put up serious damage numbers in a Warzone simply because they live longer and never run out of ammo with Energy Blast. I've been beaten (ranked 2nd) on Damage Done by my guild's Vanguard Ops Tank by about a thousand points (I run the "Tibetan Candle" Tactics spec).

 

Neural Surge is insane when running with the Combat Tech set-bonus, making it a full 3 seconds and allowing you to solo-recap a Voidstar bomb – providing Sorcs and Sages aren't AoEing the area. In addition, its on a mere 45-second cooldown! Cryo Grenade should never be spammed as it tops off Resolve Bars quickly, preventing further CC to the target. Its 60-sec (50-sec talented) cooldown only lends further to its situational usage.

 

If you want maneuverability, go Tactics for Hold the Line. You'll pick up some mitigation and huge burst damage (unlike Iron Fist which lacks in burst). If you go with the Tibetan Candle build mentioned above, you'll drop High Impact Bolt and all of your attacks will be Tech – meaning it will not be mitigated by armor and defensive cooldowns like the Maurader/Sentinel's Obfuscate/Pacify.

[Philosomanic]

Even with a full 31-point Shield spec, a Vanguard can put up serious damage numbers in a Warzone simply because they live longer and never run out of ammo with Energy Blast. I've been beaten (ranked 2nd) on Damage Done by my guild's Vanguard Ops Tank by about a thousand points (I run the "Tibetan Candle" Tactics spec).[/url]

 

I'm sorry, but that build seems bad to me. I understand not wanting to have a focus on gut. However, to avoid points in gut, you had to put points into Focused Impact, which boosts HiB. You have no way to apply a DoT with that build, so you have no reliable way to use HiB. Also, you said yourself that you don't use it.

 

You might as well put those points into Gut. Even though you probably won't use it, it's a better way to spend the points than an upgrade on a skill that you definitely won't use.

 

Also, if armor penetration is your thing, I'd recommend a build that looks something like this. Penetrating 90% armor is actually better than dealing elemental/internal damage. Even the best tanks don't have much more than 50% armor, which means they have 5% armor against HiB. Anyone with the Consular/Sorcerer buff will have 10%+ damage reduction against elemental attacks. Yes, it can be defended, but most people ignore defense rate, and HiB does plenty of damage to make up for that.

[DacRycar]

I'm sorry, but that build seems bad to me. I understand not wanting to have a focus on gut. However, to avoid points in gut, you had to put points into Focused Impact, which boosts HiB. You have no way to apply a DoT with that build, so you have no reliable way to use HiB. Also, you said yourself that you don't use it.

 

You might as well put those points into Gut. Even though you probably won't use it, it's a better way to spend the points than an upgrade on a skill that you definitely won't use.

 

Also, if armor penetration is your thing, I'd recommend a build that looks something like this. Penetrating 90% armor is actually better than dealing elemental/internal damage. Even the best tanks don't have much more than 50% armor, which means they have 5% armor against HiB. Anyone with the Consular/Sorcerer buff will have 10%+ damage reduction against elemental attacks. Yes, it can be defended, but most people ignore defense rate, and HiB does plenty of damage to make up for that.

 

The points into the HiB armor pen is out of necessity to climb the tree; but, there are times when a HiB can be used when closing the gap on a new target already DoT'd or incapacitated by another player. This, however, is situational.

 

An alternative is to put 1 point into armor pen, 1 point into Gut and 1 point into 5% Gut damage. HiB and Gut in this spec is still not a priority in the rotation but is situational or ignored completely.

 

The ability priority for a Tibetan Candle/NORSE (No Rail Shot Ever) spec is a 12-second rotation as follows:

- Fire Pulse

- 3x Ion Pulse

- Stockstrike (free proc)

- Ion Pulse

- Pulse Cannon

 

This spec puts out the same burst damage as a HiB armor pen spec with greater utility from other talents. For more information and theorycrafting about this No Rail Shot/HiB build and how it works, visit "The Bounty Hunter’s Guide to PFT: An Advanced Prototype Special" thread.

Edited April 19, 2012 by DacRycar

[Menthro]

Why play a Vanguard? What do we do that no other class does?

 

I'm only asking because for PvP, I think we are the worst tank class. We have the worst defensive cooldowns in the game. For DPS other classes do it better. We don't have stealth, so everything we do is completely obvious. Theoretically we can kite, but only to an extent. Sages do a way better job at kiting. We get a whopping two stuns one of which is very short. So it's super obvious which stun to trinket out of. Unless you are specced into tactics the cooldowns are pretty long on those. Harpoon is fun but tankassins have a pull that does the same thing.

 

I play an Assault Vanguard with full battlemaster and a critcrafted warhero piece and I feel more useful in PvP on my guardian alt with way crappier gear.

 

I don't seem to have any trouble being the WORST tank in PvP, in fact I tend to survive with the entire other team beating on me for awhile, something I havn't seen any of the "better" tanks doing. then again, I'm specced as a tank not as an iron fist or dps unlike some people who go pure dps and expect to be able to tank.

[Blurps]

best pvp tank tbh. easy to keep your guard in range of a healer. unless you're a flighty tank

 

Guardian/Jugg is the best bodyguard by a mile ( and a half tbh ),

[Codename_Quincy]

how ? they have to melee to run any dps. they do that peter pan leap and leave their healer w/o guard. van pvp tank can just face roll a few abilities and eat sammiches right next to a healer and keep their healer in guard constantly

[me_unknown]

thats a lie... we dont have many tools compared to other classes.

Even a sentinel can hold out longer than we can.

 

1. tools do not consist only of abilities that increase your surviving

2. a sentinel cannot survive longer than a IF vanguard can! well, a sentinel can if you let him of course.

[Desist]

Funny how apparently the best thing about Vanguards is it's tanking. Some interesting points were brought up. I forgot about how good the aoe stun is with Combat tech gear. It is pretty solid. I can see how the Vanguard beats the Shadow on that. I don't think a Vanguard can really beat a shadow tank, but whatever. Guardian still wins the who has better cc/stuns imo.

 

I ran Iron fist for a short time and my only problem with it was I just ran out of ammo quick. Then I'm just kind of piddling away with my autoattack. Probably my fault. Assault spec got me in the habit of just using the procced ability after every proc. That being said your damage without stockstrike just blows and even with it you aren't going to beat a tankassin.

 

I still think Shadows and Guardians have better defensive abilities.

 

Storm is cool, but the Guardian's jump is better, plus they have a friendly jump, so those of you arguing that they feel all alone when their tank isn't beside them can instantly have a guardian by your side almost whenever he wants to be. Most of the time your attackers are going to be melee and guess who's also melee? A guardian. Shadows too really. Leaps in general are cool, but they also require you to have someone to jump on. That isn't always the case and I know that shadow tanks love their force speed in huttball. Plus they have stealth so they can go anywhere they want without anyone knowing. Stealth is also a decent gap closer, at least for starting engagements.

 

The vanguard harpoon is the best pull in the game especially if you are specced into it. And the ranged aoe taunt is better than the other taunts. The 6 second specced interrupt is also really nice.

 

Here is why I don't care that much. Harpoon frustrates me half the time. A lot of time people don't go where I'd think they'd go. A lot of the time I'm just wasting it on peeps that get resolve capped or are immune or somehow los it when it goes off. Stuff happens and it happens fairly often for it to be annoying. Harpoon is mainly only useful for killing peeps in traps, which fails often enough and catching runners, which imo isn't very important.

 

I don't have anything to say about the aoe taunt though. It's nice. The other classes aoe taunts work well enough though. The interrupt does however pawn every other interrupt.

 

Another thing that I haven't heard mentioned and I like about the Vanguard is stealth scan. It's just beautiful.

 

I switched to tactics today to get a feel for how it plays. I haven't gotten the rotation down pat yet, but I figured I'd give myself another day at it. I might try out that Tibetan Candle build and see how it plays. So far I've just not been happy with pulse cannon. I haven't noticed it actually slowing anyone. I don't like chasing someone and having to stop to channel it. Seems odd. The damage is good enough from tactics I suppose, but I miss assault.

Edited April 20, 2012 by Desist

[Codename_Quincy]

Squatting Donkey is the best spec

[origional]

I suggest you try Taugrim's Iron Fist spec and read up on it. Full DPS gear with a shield. 3k stock strike crits with a good survivability. Can Shadow Tank's storm? Didn't think so. Probably my favorite ability of them all and it also has a 1 second root effect.

 

People will love/hate you in Huttball.

 

Taugrims guide is pre 1.2. Things have changed. 3k stock strikes happen once in a blue moon. (que all the uberl33ts claiming they do it all the time and more...) and survivability has gone out of the window with the massive increase in gear stats. Shields are practically useless because of the type of damage the enemy does and defense has wrecked in favour of absorbtion, which is usless because its part of the shield process.

[me_unknown]

Taugrims guide is pre 1.2. Things have changed. 3k stock strikes happen once in a blue moon. (que all the uberl33ts claiming they do it all the time and more...) and survivability has gone out of the window with the massive increase in gear stats. Shields are practically useless because of the type of damage the enemy does and defense has wrecked in favour of absorbtion, which is usless because its part of the shield process.

 

i disagree with most of your post. though, my build is not exactly tuagrims one and i some what agree as i do not use a shield generator at all.

 

btw. i get 3k or close to 3k stockstrike crits quite regularly against bm oponents. though i use my biochemie stim and relict. i have no problems in pvp with my IF-like build.

 

edit: but actually i should shut up. defending "my vanguard" will not do any good for me or my class i play. i prefer most people to fail with the vanguard than to succeed or it gets nerfed.

Edited April 20, 2012 by me_unknown

[Blurps]

they [Guardians] have to melee to run any dps.

 

So do Vanguards. Only Assault can stay at distance for a limited time, but that will cut down on either damage or ammo real quick and in that spec you're not a tank, PvP or otherwise, anyway. The ranged capabilies of the other trees are pretty much limited to interrupting objective capping and the occasional Mortar Volley. With Sticky Bomb and ( non Plasma Cell ) Hammer Shot you'll barely tickle people.

 

how ?

 

Guardians/Juggs have a larger and better toolset to control opponents. The one thing they are missing is Harpoon, but the 15m range on Guard severely limits it's usefulness for a bodyguard.

Edited April 20, 2012 by Blurps