Why are we still in the "Kill 10 rats" era of MMOs?

[Lightmaguz]

Sure!

 

Tracking/BH quests where you have to research/tail your target and find the right time to strike or capture them. Tail you target, track them down etc etc..

(FE has this)

PUZZLES! (SWTOR has a few but its mostly just in raids) DDO did this GREAT btw. All kinda of puzzles in that game. TSW is suppose to involve a lot of this as well.

 

LIVE DYNAMIC EVENTS!

How hard could this be? I like the Rakghoul thing sure, but its static, and one day we will wake up, and it will just disappear.

 

UO had entire cities INVADED by undead armies, with boss mobs controlled by REAL people, who roleplayed the part and everything. Hell they had QUESTS that were like this, with riddles and clues and all kinda of crap.

 

CRAFTNG! Why don't we have quests involving crafting? You would be surprised how many folks would like this. Going out and finding rare minerals or materials, meeting buy orders etc.

 

I know with limited interfaces like the Keyboard and mouse its tough to innovate, but other genres have done it, why not MMOs?

 

I dont just mean quests btw. I talk about a lot of concepts that have grown stale, or been over used.

 

 

 

This guy knows... Unfortunately most of what composed Ultima Online is lost to gaming history. Darkfall kinda tried something like it but was buggy, overhyped, BUGGY a general mess that failed utterly, TOR messed everything up with patch 1.2 which was likely it's last chance to succeed in most player's point of view.

[Oddzball]

There is a second fundamental flaw to traditional quest systems: what the quest text tells you is happening in a quest is not actually what is happening in the world.

 

For example, in a traditional MMO, the character who gives you a quest will tell you ogres are coming to destroy the character's home, and you need to kill them. You then get a quest which says, "Kill 0/10 ogres" and you proceed to kill a bunch of ogres standing around in a field picking daisies. Since every player in the game needs to be able to do this quest, the ogres will never actually threaten the character's home - they will just eternally pick daisies in the field. The ogres aren't actually doing what the quest says they are - the game is lying to you!

 

Thats what we need and what is possible.

 

A living breathing world.

 

When an NPC tells me something is attacking his town or stealing his children, I better be able to go and see this stuff actually happen.

 

I'm tired of the lifeless MMO worlds. NPCs just standing around waiting to be killed.

 

When i kill these enemies they just keep coming back.

 

Why cant we have some sort of real impact on the world. I CAN be done. Arcage actually lets you directly affect the world for example. It sounds like GW2 is doing this.

 

The core of this evolution is our event system, which allows the world to dynamically change based on actions and decisions made by the players. A single player decision can cascade across a zone, changing the direction of a chain of events until they dramatically alter the content played by players in a map.

 

Other developers have tried to tackle this problem, but in Guild Wars 2 we go further. Where other multi-player quest systems were pass or fail - our dynamic events evolve in response to player interaction and the outcomes they achieve. Where previous systems reset and start again and really don't change the world, dynamic events chain and cascade across a zone and leave persistent effects in the game world after the event has ended.

 

Heck look at Rifts "Rift dynamic events" That crap is awesome.

 

Why in SWTOR cant we have a "Invasion" happen somewhere and players have to band together to stop them?

 

I hate to use GW2 as an example, but if they can do it, surely BioWare should be able to pull this off. I have no interest in playing another Sword/Sorc MMO, I want my starwars, but I want it to feel ALIVE.

[rhirne]

You can't really have anything Dynamic in an MMO because it will effect someone else's gameplay and outrage will insue.

 

I will use the current Rhakghoul event as an example (I know it is not fully dynamic but just as an example):

 

The event itself is a universe wide event. A plauge has happened and is spreading to other planets. People are being advised to stay on their ships, don't go to XYZ planet(s), etc... Now a large number of people seem to be enjoying the event - having some fun with it. But there are also those who despise it. Why? Because it's effecting their gameplay. They want to be able to 100% opt-out of the event because of a minor (yes people it really is minor) inconvenience; even though there is a way to opt-out for a few credits. As well, it is 100% clear of who to stay away from.

 

Is the event perfect? No not at all and there definately could be some improvements to it. But when I say "Most of us don't use our vaccines cause we're doing the event. if you ask, we will give them to you for free" and you get replies like "I don't want to talk to you (or ask in general chat) for them. BW should give me a way to not have to participate" all you can do is say really? in am MMO ??? I mean, they are calling it griefing. people even saying they are un-subbing because of it. Again ???

 

 

It's kinda like it being winter time, and you are complaining that you have to buy a coat because it's cold outside. Then i say "I have an extra coat, you can have it if you want" and you say "I don't want your coat. It shouldn't be cold outside" /facepalm

 

Because it effects their gameplay, it has to be a bad thing. or because something isn't exactly how they want it, the QQ'ing starts. A developer can't please everyone and has to try and find a middle ground. Having something truly dynamic just wouldn't work. You have NPC's outdoors 9-5 and then at night, they are in their homes people would complain "People work at night too!!" Have an event where ghosts come out at nightime spooking people, and people will complain "I don't belive in ghosts and I don't want to participate. I want them to leave me alone." There's no win.

 

Again, that's why MMO's have generally stayed the same, as have all other game genre's.. Yeah better graphics, some added features, but not a change in the underlying game design / play. So they just combine different elements that have worked over the years into a game. I remember playing the .hack series and just thought "Man it would be cool to have an MMO like this" or playing another MMO and thinking "Man, the PvP in this is great. I wish XYZ game had this in it - would be awesome!" You just aren't gonna find a developer willing to go far enough to break the mold that ain't broken.

[Oddzball]

You can't really have anything Dynamic in an MMO because it will effect someone else's gameplay and outrage will insue.

 

 

Apparently you can since other MMOs are doing it.

[ThiborF]

 

Thats what we need and what is possible.

 

A living breathing world.

 

When an NPC tells me something is attacking his town or stealing his children, I better be able to go and see this stuff actually happen.

 

While possible for some temporary live events (ie. this week is the zombie invasion of City X and you go there and sure enough, zombies are attacking) I doubt you'll get the ongoing "living breathing world" that's fully dynamic that you're looking for in a large scale mmo.

 

Simple question: King/politician/leader NPC wants his counterpart in a rival region removed but, wants it done covertly so as no tracing back to him. So there's the quest. In your living, breathing dynamic MMO can every character on the server get that quest or just the lucky person that's first to click "Talk to the npc"? I mean after all in that living breathing world, no person wishing to carry out something covertly is going to ask the same thing of 10k different mercenaries that knock on their door. Nor is the target going to be available after the first kill.

 

And so circling back, one may argue that YES, that's the kind of things they do need but enough of it so everyone can discover their own story lines and paths through the game. Where each player has a unique experience. And yet the amount of content needed to satisfy a server of thousands would be immense. OR, the developers would have to come up with a on-the-fly mission generator with a HUGE number of variables such that not every player is killing the same rival in the same region for the same npc.

 

Single player RPGs have FAR more space to stretch out their creativity and have you feel like you are the single hero that has risen up to save the land. In today's MMO space, a seemingly overwhelming majority of the playerbase expects to be able to do in the game what someone else has. Meaning you killing Darth Baras doesn't negate my story line with him where I'm his apprentice.

[Oddzball]

While possible for some temporary live events (ie. this week is the zombie invasion of City X and you go there and sure enough, zombies are attacking) I doubt you'll get the ongoing "living breathing world" that's fully dynamic that you're looking for in a large scale mmo.

 

Simple question: King/politician/leader NPC wants his counterpart in a rival region removed but, wants it done covertly so as no tracing back to him. So there's the quest. In your living, breathing dynamic MMO can every character on the server get that quest or just the lucky person that's first to click "Talk to the npc"? I mean after all in that living breathing world, no person wishing to carry out something covertly is going to ask the same thing of 10k different mercenaries that knock on their door. Nor is the target going to be available after the first kill.

 

And so circling back, one may argue that YES, that's the kind of things they do need but enough of it so everyone can discover their own story lines and paths through the game. Where each player has a unique experience. And yet the amount of content needed to satisfy a server of thousands would be immense. OR, the developers would have to come up with a on-the-fly mission generator with a HUGE number of variables such that not every player is killing the same rival in the same region for the same npc.

 

Single player RPGs have FAR more space to stretch out their creativity and have you feel like you are the single hero that has risen up to save the land. In today's MMO space, a seemingly overwhelming majority of the playerbase expects to be able to do in the game what someone else has. Meaning you killing Darth Baras doesn't negate my story line with him where I'm his apprentice.

 

How is guild wars 2 doing it? (Again I don't really want to play GW2, I love me some SWTOR, but this is what they are claiming)

[DataBeaver]

When an NPC tells me something is attacking his town or stealing his children, I better be able to go and see this stuff actually happen.

Okay. Suppose you defeat those nasty child-stealing bandits. What's left to do for the thousands of people in line behind you? I'll bet the bandits will be back in no time to steal more children. Or maybe it's orcs this time. Maybe they'll be stealing livestock instead of children.

 

Now suppose you decide "eh, not my problem" and ignore the bandits. Suppose no one else comes along to save them either. The children as stolen, and on the way to be sold as slaves. The quest might change into one to save the children from the bandits, or avenge them. And after that's done? There'll be some new menace threatening the village. In all likelihood the NPC will have more children too, and probably sooner rather than later (i.e. much sooner than it'd take to actually breed and raise children).

 

In any case, status quo must be maintained. It's the nature of any MMO game.

 

I'm tired of the lifeless MMO worlds. NPCs just standing around waiting to be killed.

Now this is fixable to some extent. With some scripting effort, NPCs can be given simple tasks to carry out while they wait for the next player to come around and kill them. If you observe them long enough, they'll still obviously be simple drones, but it might give a fleeting illusion of them having some purpose in their lives.

 

There's one major pitfall though. What's the sensible thing for a guard to do when you attack a fortress with a thousand soldiers within? Yeah, sounding the alarm. Now instead of the two guards at the door, you'll have an entire battalion to deal with. It's impossible to balance the game for such a situation short of making the players outright gods.

 

Heck look at Rifts "Rift dynamic events" That crap is awesome.

I think this blog post sums it up pretty well. Halfway down the page is a aection adressing the event system. After explaining some basics, it says:

RIFT does not have dynamic events — it has random static events. The events reoccur seemingly at random in fairly predictable locations, and they do predictable things because they’re entirely scripted. They have only a temporary impact on the world.

Status quo must be maintained.

[Oddzball]

 

I think this blog post sums it up pretty well. Halfway down the page is a aection adressing the event system. After explaining some basics, it says:

 

Status quo must be maintained.

 

No kidding, you could take that exact same article, and replace the name Rift with SWTOR and it would pretty much have the same problems for example;

 

Nice combat… where’s the rest of the game?

 

Housing, crafting, trading, roleplay, PvP… it’s really ridiculous that these things are considered secondary and unnecessary to so many games. Most games — WoW among them — aren’t really MMORPGs in the classic sense at all; instead, they’re MMFCSs — massively multiplayer fantasy combat simulators. When you strip away the “fluff,” you’re left only with repetitive monster-bashing.

 

SWTOR hasn’t done anything to recommend itself here. Its crafting system is rudimentary and doesn’t exceed the pitifully low standard set by WoW, which is shameful in an era of mega-crafting MMOs like UO, SWG, Wurm, and Fallen Earth. PvP servers have factional open ganking and PvE servers are limited to sterile, instanced battlegrounds — no innovation has occurred on this front at all. Tools for roleplay (emotes, chat bubbles, taverns) are limited, and while the game is designed to bring people together to DO FPs, it does nothing to encourage communication at all let alone to reward actual roleplay. Housing is simply not present, and though Stephen Reid told me personally it might be included sometime post-launch, I’ve heard that before, and besides, whenever a system isn’t included at launch, we all know that it won’t be truly integrated even if added, because the original game simply wasn’t designed around it. LotRO’s feeble attempt at housing is a perfect example of how not to add housing post-launch — it’s so separated from the game off in its little instances that it goes largely unused except as storage.

 

You can literally replace RIFT with SWTOR in that article and its EXACTLY relevant in all the same ways.

 

Seriously, I LOVE SWTOR, I WANT the game to improve, but you have to PUSH for developers to be a little innovative instead of just keeping the status quo.

[ZeusThunder]

The real answer to your question is this:

In order to make an MMO that is "different" a company would need to invest money in a risky venture. This does not make financial sense, and history has shown that more often than not gaming companies fail to make money when creating a brand new style of game that hasn't been done before. The shareholders, the ones who invest money in the company, want to put their money on sure things, not take huge gambles.

In short, the people that pay to make the game are not gamers. Therefore, you will most often get things that have been proven to make money in the past.

[Oddzball]

The real answer to your question is this:

In order to make an MMO that is "different" a company would need to invest money in a risky venture. This does not make financial sense, and history has shown that more often than not gaming companies fail to make money when creating a brand new style of game that hasn't been done before. The shareholders, the ones who invest money in the company, want to put their money on sure things, not take huge gambles.

In short, the people that pay to make the game are not gamers. Therefore, you will most often get things that have been proven to make money in the past.

 

I think based on the fact that's its Star Wars they could have been different and still not that risky.

 

A lot of people bought this game based on two facts.

 

Its Star Wars

Its made by BioWare

[BJWyler]

How is guild wars 2 doing it? (Again I don't really want to play GW2, I love me some SWTOR, but this is what they are claiming)

 

The same way Rift did it, if you are referring to Dynamic Events.

 

As many others said here, and DataBeaver puts it so nicely, you can only have so much "dynamic" content in any game, even a Single-player game. Complete sandboxing is a myth and beyond the capability of any system to program or run with our technology today. And for the most part, gamers need a bit of hand-holding, regardless of what they may say. The more casual the playstyle, the more hand-holding needed. I know if I have a limited amount of time to play, I want to know who to talk to, where to go, and what I need to do (with instructions helping me do it, if necessary), so I can complete a goal in the time that I have. That's not possible in a fully dynamic or sandboxed game.

 

I see this type of complaint constantly in mags and forums, but the truth of the matter is, not matter what the outside package looks like, underneath you are still talking to X who needs Y done. Wizardy - Kill the evil wizard at the bottom of the dungeon and bring back his amulet. Guild Wars - one quest in the third game (nightfall) that didn't have any markers, yet it was still "talk to NPC and bring back his item)". There's nothing inherently wrong with that system. The only real improvement would be to give players multiple options for completing the requirements. For instance, you talk to X who wants to get Y back. You can go get it yourself, killing all who stand in your way, or you can sneak around and get Y without lifting a finger in combat, or you can pay Z to go get Y and bring it to you so you can give it back to X (or tell Z to take it to X directly).

 

BJ

[thepilk]

Indeed. That was kind of my point. It's just a shame that the gaming industry (which has, IMO, nostly been innovative and creative) would fall into that kettle as well, which is Hollywood produced mainstream.

 

Because gaming, like filmmaking before it is no longer an art. Its a business now, its not about creativity or innovation, just about units. The new romantic comedy is no different than the new shooter.. there is no interst in longevity or originality. they want this one on shelves, have people ooo over it for two weeks and then buy the new one.

[ThiborF]

I think based on the fact that's its Star Wars they could have been different and still not that risky.

 

A lot of people bought this game based on two facts.

 

Its Star Wars

Its made by BioWare

 

Yeah, Sony Online thought that too and we see how well that worked out for them.

[Kubwulf]

It basically comes down to the following as I see it:

 

We've been shown that sandbox worlds can exist while maintaining some form of status quo. (SWG did this wonderfully with the missions all being basically drop box style) but the rest of the world was dynamic. Player housing and cities, classes built around crafting, it was great pre-nerf. So sandboxing is possible.

 

Remove leveling. Again, possible. And again, it was SWG that showed how to do it right.

 

Partially dynamic worlds can exist in a sandbox environment. However, one must accept that there will be static situations. If 10k players all go out to kill X rats, how long before the rats are extinct? What takes thier place in the ecosystem? For a true example of what the OP is looking for, stuff like this has to be thought of. Finite populations are possible but completely inconcievable in an MMO environment due to the nature of questing. You want to get better at swinging that lightsaber, you can only get so good against a practice dummy or instructor. Eventually, you have to move on to people who are trying to kill you or you won't get better.

 

In short, Sandboxing is possible to a limited extent as long as the player doesn't expect EVERYTHING to be sandboxed. There have to be respawns, opposing factions where the quest dies as soon as player 1 kills objective "a" means that only the folks that have countless hours to play will ever advance a story since they'll be the first to get everything done.

 

Second thing you have to look at is the business aspect. It is unfortunate that venture capital rarely goes to an unproven concept. In this instance, SWTOR had to follow the norm in order to break away from the "norm" as much as they did.

 

I'd love more innovation. But the fact is, in today's business market, it doesn't get rewarded.

 

Personnally, if I could take all the things I love about SWTOR and combine it with all the stuff I loved about SWG pre-nerf, that would be one hell of a game!

[Deyjarl]

So, i was kinda thinking today about MMO's in general,

 

Don't see anyone offering other realistic ideas.

Edited April 20, 2012 by Deyjarl

[LeonBraun]

We are still there because all objectives that make sense can be boiled down to:

 

Collect something

Kill something.

Escort someone.

 

They can be masked well, sure, but that's all *anything* boiled down to, if you look deep enough.

 

If you would like to suggest some alternatives, go ahead. Willing to bet I'll be able to reduce them to kill/collect/escort!

 

^^ This.

 

Also, these quests you are referring to are only bonus quests, and this is done on the fly to add extra quests and extra opportunities for XP without having to add more fully voiced quest scenes, thus giving us more for the dev time.

[DataBeaver]

We've been shown that sandbox worlds can exist while maintaining some form of status quo. (SWG did this wonderfully with the missions all being basically drop box style) but the rest of the world was dynamic. Player housing and cities, classes built around crafting, it was great pre-nerf. So sandboxing is possible.

I haven't played SWG, but I've played Anarchy Online, which also implements player cities, housing and mission terminals. Let me know if SWG implemented these in radically different ways.

 

AO has predetermined spots for player cities, anywhere between 4 and 20+ per zone depending on zone size, plus some special city-only zones which have more. This is probably to prevent the game world from becoming chock full with cities. All of the spots were purchased within a couple weeks of their introduction, and ever since they've been a rather static feature of the game world. Every once in a while a city spot changes hands and gets rebuilt with the same buildings in a slightly different layout (some of the buildings are more useful than others, so there's a certain set everyone wants). The cities are used for on-demand alien raids (with a chance of dropping some of the most sought-after items in the game) and player shops (which are globally searchable). No one ever hangs out at them aside from a pre-raid gathering, because it's more beneficial for everyone to hang at the faction capitals (more people to get buffs from or ask for crafting services).

 

Housing is implemented as apartments, and every player gets one after completing the tutorial zone. They're accessible through static doors in the game world, which are pretty well hidden from the usual hangout areas. I think in the five years I played the game I visited another player's apartment once; there isn't really anything to do besides looking at the owner's interior design and chatting.

 

Mission terminals provide five distinct types of missions, all of which involve finding something in a randomly generated dungeon in a random location of the game world and then doing something with it (kill, select[1], repair, collect). There are a few different backstories for each mission type, but they're inconsequential and you'll stop caring soon enough. The missions are ostensibly customizable in aspects such as stealth/head-on and physical/nanotech[2], but these have little practical difference. Mostly the missions are only used for getting items (the system lets you know the reward before you accept the mission, so you can reroll them until you get what you want), or endgame xp grind for free players who don't have access to expansions with better means of getting xp.

 

[1] There are two different "select" type missions; you may need to select an item or an NPC. According to the mission backstory this will record the target's location.

 

[2] Nano-technology is Anarchy Online's equivalent for magic.

[vincent-]

^^ This.

 

Also, these quests you are referring to are only bonus quests, and this is done on the fly to add extra quests and extra opportunities for XP without having to add more fully voiced quest scenes, thus giving us more for the dev time.

 

Kill

collect

escort

 

You missed few more.

 

So instead we should have been seeing this. system

Avoid: Not being detect don't kill and make a get away with or accomplishing a goal and no one finds out

Kill: Destroy eliminate leaving no survivors

Click: Stealing or gathering information or items of value

Escort: Protecting a moving target to A to Z without it being killed or destroyed.

Guard: Protecting a location or person in a static location last stand areas or high value target until a certain time is reached.

Build: Pretty simple really given a mission or contract to build a sum of items or items be it small or large by yourself or with others IE building the defense up or constructing a base/flagship

 

At the moment we hardly have most of these as actual quests 3 being the normal ones and not being very good at hiding or at least giving them more significance in the universe we play in.

 

Again the game lacks life and we have no true change good and evil are meaningless no factional control or purpose to our acts for or against our faction.

 

The same with pve/pvp we never truly interact with the faction for real. The system of kill, collect, and escort need more meat to them as in effecting the outcome of the planet.

 

As others have said saving the village from the evil and well what about the next guy behind me that's the thing these planets are vast but empty it doesn't have to be that lone farmer to get that quest that might not pop up for while with something different attacking.

 

Well that's life there is always a threat some were gangsters looking for trouble bandits raiding or stealing from a cargo shuttle monsters going crazy because some idiot killed it's food source off.

 

It also doesn't have to be some script event were bandits come heck the guy in charge is looking for some mercs who failed to steal, now you the hero beat those previous guys and they see me and ask. "Hey credits to whoever can steal that powerconverter that farmer has!" and I say yes now after you almost leave I'm running up there blast the farmer in the face steal the item and escort it back to the drop off point and flick you off as I go my merry way you could attack me or leave it at that.

[brandifletcher]

One of the post earlier ( that was a hassle to quote ) called the events in Rift "random static events".

 

I'd kill to have a few "Rifts" going on SWTOR because, let's face it, alot of the nonstory quests are really not fun.

[ThiborF]

Kill

collect

escort

 

You missed few more.

 

So instead we should have been seeing this. system

Avoid: Not being detect don't kill and make a get away with or accomplishing a goal and no one finds out

Essentially escorting yourself

 

Kill: Destroy eliminate leaving no survivors

Kill quest

 

Click: Stealing or gathering information or items of value

Collect quest

Escort: Protecting a moving target to A to Z without it being killed or destroyed.

Escort quest

 

Guard: Protecting a location or person in a static location last stand areas or high value target until a certain time is reached.

Essentially a non-moving escort quest

 

Build: Pretty simple really given a mission or contract to build a sum of items or items be it small or large by yourself or with others IE building the defense up or constructing a base/flagship

Collect quests, usually multiple strung together/repeated

 

At the moment we hardly have most of these as actual quests 3 being the normal ones and not being very good at hiding or at least giving them more significance in the universe we play in.

 

Again the game lacks life and we have no true change good and evil are meaningless no factional control or purpose to our acts for or against our faction.

 

The same with pve/pvp we never truly interact with the faction for real. The system of kill, collect, and escort need more meat to them as in effecting the outcome of the planet.

 

As others have said saving the village from the evil and well what about the next guy behind me that's the thing these planets are vast but empty it doesn't have to be that lone farmer to get that quest that might not pop up for while with something different attacking.

 

Well that's life there is always a threat some were gangsters looking for trouble bandits raiding or stealing from a cargo shuttle monsters going crazy because some idiot killed it's food source off.

 

It also doesn't have to be some script event were bandits come heck the guy in charge is looking for some mercs who failed to steal, now you the hero beat those previous guys and they see me and ask. "Hey credits to whoever can steal that powerconverter that farmer has!" and I say yes now after you almost leave I'm running up there blast the farmer in the face steal the item and escort it back to the drop off point and flick you off as I go my merry way you could attack me or leave it at that.

 

My comments in white below each "additional" quest type illustrating how they're not really different from the core three. It's just the wrapper (ie. story/reasoning/result) that changes. Sure, repeating 100 gather 10 brick quests may result in a structure being built but, at the end of the day you're simply doing 100 collect quests.