Tank Assassins (and Shadows) are ruining PvP.

[Zerogates]

If you parry Force Leap (yes, it's a melee attack), you don't get rooted. ^^

 

Almost always (as I think there was an LOS issue preventing it once) when a warrior leaps to you your character is unable to move until they reach you. It may not be in the effects but you are, in fact, rooted practically every time and there is nothing you can do to stop it. The actual root effect that is supposed to take place is the only part you can avoid.

Edited April 20, 2012 by Zerogates

[Neamhan]

The CCing from stealth while defending is one thing, since a tank setup is already going to have higher survival it makes it almost too powerful in defense. The other thing is that I do not believe assassins or shadows in tank spec should be without stealth, but that their effective stealth capabilities are reduced. Vanishing mid fight is a cheap tool but I will not voice my ideas on that as it applies to all stealthing by agents/smugglers as well.

 

Either way I do not have a clear suggestion as to what I think should be done for tanks in regards to stealthing as opposed to damage builds, but I do not think a class who can sacrifice some damage for significant, albiet necessary survival, should also retain the positioning and utility capabilities granted by stealth in its full effect.

 

Best I can think of is if the harnessed darkness proc is activated, the one everyone truly complains about and is entirely tied to the tanking tree, then an out of combat delay on stealthing could be added. Force tanks to be in the open longer, such as after a kill involving the damage boost , then they are forced to wait 10-15 seconds before stealthing again, then they become more like tanks. Damage assassins and shadows who lack survival are the ones who truly need to hide and heal in most cases.

 

Most Kinetic Shadows are already going to be easier to stop in stealth anyway, since Misdirection is a tier 2 Infiltration talent. You'd have to give up Upheaval and Psychokinesis for it, which for most is too high a price to pay for better stealth.

 

In the case of Force Cloak, use a DoT. Then the Shadow has to make the choice between hanging onto Resilience to use the Cloak, which takes away their most powerful defensive cooldown, or using Resilience in the fight and having to forgo the Cloak since the DoT will just pop them right back out again. In other words, their are already counters in the game.

[Zerogates]

Most Kinetic Shadows are already going to be easier to stop in stealth anyway, since Misdirection is a tier 2 Infiltration talent. You'd have to give up Upheaval and Psychokinesis for it, which for most is too high a price to pay for better stealth.

 

In the case of Force Cloak, use a DoT. Then the Shadow has to make the choice between hanging onto Resilience to use the Cloak, which takes away their most powerful defensive cooldown, or using Resilience in the fight and having to forgo the Cloak since the DoT will just pop them right back out again. In other words, their are already counters in the game.

 

There are counters to stealthing, even in combat stealthing, I would not argue that. It is when the counters fail and the stealthing is successful that it feels as if it works too much in the advantage of the assassin/shadow. This applies to all combat stealth though so my problems are with operatives/scoundrels as well.

 

Especially considering that once you successfully stealth, you can then proceed to start mezzing whoever almost killed you and prevent them from taking an objective they should have rightfully won with little recourse. Low risk and high reward capabilities that a character more vulnerable than a devoted tank or healer should have.

[pchayka]

We've got few unbeatable shadows on our server. Crazy dps, impossible to kill, impossible to stop. We're gettin used

[MandraMoody]

So provide some of those facts and numbers. I provided some which show Shadows are balanced right where they're supposed to be. I've yet to see anyone provide any numbers to show otherwise. It's nothing but 'Shadows are overpowered because I said so' with nothing to back it up. Seems like you're the one in denial since you can't back up anything you say with any actual facts or numbers.

 

This entire thread is exactly what you described.

 

They think a 2k heal is OP on 16-18k HP when most DPS classes are spitting 3-5k chains on the sin and eating 70-80% of those HPs. Sorc Heal is more, Ops heals are more, Merc heals are more. I underlined the answer... or moreso "Shadows are overpowered because I got beat by one, no one should beat my class!!!"

 

Yet somehow I can beat them on my ops, on my sorc and on my merc O.o imagine that!

Edited April 20, 2012 by MandraMoody

[pchayka]

Tank with crazy dps who can run like the wind, hide in the shadow, pull the enemy in the fire, guard other players.

 

LOL!

Edited April 20, 2012 by pchayka

[MandraMoody]

powertech?

[Scoobings]

powertech?

 

Wish I had stealth that would be epic.

[Zerogates]

We've got few unbeatable shadows on our server. Crazy dps, impossible to kill, impossible to stop. We're gettin used

 

Interrupts

Pulls

Stuns

Timing burst after their tech/force immunity is down

Using AOE's when they guard someone

 

Closest thing to unkillable in this game is a devoted healer in a 1 on 1 fight. Other than that nothing in this game produces enough healing to survive fights indefinately. The healing produced by harnessed darkness is around 5-15% of the damage players produce which makes any such statements simply impossible. This means you are either using your tools at the wrong time or failing to use your tools at the right time (yes there is a difference with that statement).

[MandraMoody]

Wish I had stealth that would be epic.

 

My Ops stealth at least doesn't break when people look in my general direction unlike my sin lol

[pchayka]

Situation: I see one of the top shadows on our server with the ball on our side going to score. I check resolve - it's empty, noone near him. I throw Sorc's CC - no effect. Stun - no effect. He scores, gets into hide, and then 3 hits for me and i'm dead.

 

Ok.

[Zerogates]

Situation: I see one of the top shadows on our server with the ball on our side going to score. I check resolve - it's empty, noone near him. I throw Sorc's CC - no effect. Stun - no effect. He scores, gets into hide, and then 3 hits for me and i'm dead.

 

Ok.

 

You used your CC tools when the shadow was using his tech/force immunity. Thus using your tools at the wrong time.

 

The shadow was behind the final fire on the path to the goal line. I know he was there because he does not have force leap to reach that position, the tech/force immunity cannot last long enough from any other location, and force speed does not last long enough from any other location. You did not stop the ball carrier who passed the ball to the shadow who was in a location in which he could score from.

 

There were no warrior or powertech types to leap to the shadow, as that would have slowed him. You also lacked a class which could have pulled him.

 

When he is recieving the pass he would not have used his tech/force immunity, he would have waited until after the pass was finished. You could have stunned, pulled, or knocked the shadow down in that time.

 

 

The failure here, as I assumed, was not defending ones side correctly, not trying to make sure someone was not stealthed in a scoring position, not preventing the ball carrier from passing, not using tools at the correct time, and lacking the tools to stop a scorer who is so close to the goal line. These are actions that stop my assassin all the time, and actions I use to stop others.

[Heith]

i was amazed when i looked through the patch notes and see operatives getting nerfed again and assassins not changing. i have a 50 assassin (my mains a marauder though). i couldnt believe it. tank assassins in dps gear are by far the most overpowered class with way too many tools.

 

ive since unsubscribed to the game but ill stick around till my subscription runs out. ill come back in a year when bioware has hopefully gotten the game straightened out (or EA does to SWTOR what it did to earth and beyond.)

[Neamhan]

There are counters to stealthing, even in combat stealthing, I would not argue that. It is when the counters fail and the stealthing is successful that it feels as if it works too much in the advantage of the assassin/shadow. This applies to all combat stealth though so my problems are with operatives/scoundrels as well.

 

Especially considering that once you successfully stealth, you can then proceed to start mezzing whoever almost killed you and prevent them from taking an objective they should have rightfully won with little recourse. Low risk and high reward capabilities that a character more vulnerable than a devoted tank or healer should have.

 

Well, stealth shouldn't always be able to be countered or else what's the point of it? The risk, as you say, is that if your opponent does get the counter off successfully, well then you die and they get to cap the objective.

 

By the way, here's another hint: if you immediately use an AoE (either a ground target or something that doesn't need a target) on the spot the Shadow vanished and you hit them, it will put you both back into combat even if they have Resilience up and they resist the attack. That means they can't mez you. You have to be fast though, in case they were saving Force Speed. So more counters and counter-counters. It's little things like this that can separate the really good players from the average player.

[xtoo]

the Shadows are not ruining PvP its the balance of power, it leans heavily to the Empire side. I have played both sides and i have won all my WZ on Empire and only 3 out of 20 on Republic side

 

That is not correct. The republic beats us all the time on my server.

[Zerogates]

i was amazed when i looked through the patch notes and see operatives getting nerfed again and assassins not changing. i have a 50 assassin (my mains a marauder though). i couldnt believe it. tank assassins in dps gear are by far the most overpowered class with way too many tools.

 

ive since unsubscribed to the game but ill stick around till my subscription runs out. ill come back in a year when bioware has hopefully gotten the game straightened out (or EA does to SWTOR what it did to earth and beyond.)

 

If you are in DPS gear, does that not make you a DPS? If not, which part of darkness spec actually makes you a tank more than max health and defense?

Edited April 20, 2012 by Zerogates

[Varicite]

If you parry Force Leap (yes, it's a melee attack), you don't get rooted. ^^

 

Is that what it is?

 

I've noticed being leapt to a number of times and not being rooted, but I wasn't sure what was going on, and I couldn't replicate it normally.

 

Good to know.

[Astarica]

Please show me a 9600 crit on a real player by a Tanksin. I await your screenshot, and undoubtedly will be doing so until hell freezes over.

 

Training dummies...lawl

 

I thought it was obvious, but since the training dummy has identical defenses versus any player, if you can outdo 9600 (which I don't think is impossible) in 2 GCDs you'd be able to do it to the same training dummy as well. Conversely, if you cannto do more than 9600 damage to a training dummy in 2 GCDs then your burst is also lower than a simple 3 stack HD FL + the usual.

 

Hmmm I noticed more than one person fail to get this. It doesn't matter if the training dummy has no defenses or no armor (even if it's true, and it's not because I hit the dummy for less damage than my tooltip damage). Force Lightning doesn't have any properties that interact with defense (it doesn't miss) or armor (it is a standard energy attack). It also has no range on its damage (it does exactly the same damage each time). If Force Lightning hits the dummy for 9600, and someone else's attack hits for 19200 then you can reasonably assume the later attack would hit twice as hard on a real target. Unless you assume the number reported by the dummy is completely random, it serves as a good way to look at where classes stand in burst DPS.

Edited April 21, 2012 by Astarica

[Macabrae]

Among the current FotMs, Tank Assassins (and their mirrors) are undoubtedly the grossest imbalance.

 

Yet unlike Marauders with their insane damage or Powertechs with their crazy burst, Tank Assassins actually break the game to an extent.

 

Why may you ask is a tank Assassin game-breaking?

 

1. They beat any class in a 1v1, most of the time it's not even close.

 

2. That means you have to commit at least 2 players towards taking a node guarded by a tank Assassin. But even with 2 players the Assassin will survive long enough for reinforcements to arrive before a cap. 3 Players are enough to ensure a rapid kill, if the Assassin doesn't opt to vanish in order to prolong the fight.

 

3. They also have Stealth, meaning more often than not, there'll be an extra Assassin hiding in the shadows which would also need to be killed.

 

There''s just no feasible counter to that class aside from committing half your team towards finishing them off. If the enemy team has multiple tank Assassins....well good luck with anything.

 

4. They make the best ball carriers against good players (bad players get charged by Juggers), able to speed through fire while taking negligible damage, their Stealth allows them to wait anywhere and their survivability ensures that by the time they get near the enemy goal-line, their resolve bar will be full, making them immune to any CC.

 

5. Should for some reason a group of Assassins tanks ever find itself on the defensive, no problem. Just pull that pesky ball carrier into the nearest fire and lol as you grab the ball for a quick counter.

 

6. Mentioning Guard and all the other crap they have just seems unnecessary at this point.

 

While (most) other classes have to make choices, Tank Assassins have it all.

 

/rant

 

 

Actually, QQers such as yourself who would rather come and complain to the forums and beg for nerfs as opposed to learn how to fight against the other class are what RUIN MMO's. Take people like you for example.

[KoruptData]

My shadow has been nothing but infiltration spec since day one. Since 1.2 and how fast you can go down or something as I dont remember going own so fast, I switched to the tank tree but kept the dps gear. Im in full BM with 2 WH pieces. Ive done the reading, some claim the class/spec combo is OP but I disagree. What I feel is im now a support character. Yes im doing some damage but im throwing out guards and mass mind controls for protection. My Slow Time is reducing enemy speed and reducing enemy damage. My force breach is reducing enemy accuracy. My force stuns and spinning kicks are increasing damage dealt to that target from all players. I feel like a red mage/black mage again.

 

I dont feel like im over powered, I felt more over powered as infiltration, at least from a damage stand-point. I could burst down alot of classes real fast. I always had a 2:1 ratio of kills to killing blows, always at the top of the leader boards. With the Tank spec, im surviving better, I will win alot of 1 on 1's, and yes im doing alot of damage but its not the type of damge that is troublesome. Im taking 1500-2000 hp off of 3-5 characters at a time with Slow Time, easily healable. Every minute and if the conditions are right, I get to use my telekinetic throw for 6 ticks of 1200-1800 damage over 3 seconds. Thats my damage money maker and at best, does around 12k damage. As infiltration, I could burst down 10-18k every 45 seconds. That makes you a very popular target and I consider myself a good pvp player with a well respected reputation. I was getting focused too much, I could feel it, I could see it, people were just paying too much attention too me. When things are good, would get 50+ kills with half being killing blows. Now take what I just did in a huttball match, 380k dmg with only 22 kills and 6 killing blows. My damage is easily healable, im more of a pest now, I help a team win now with my debuffs. Im not supposed to go down quick like a healer is not supposed to go down easily.

 

Im about to ding valor rank 80 and I will continue to play this tree for awhile. You nerf this one, your gonna make infiltration better and I would gladly go back.

[SneiK]

Don't forget, it's not about how hard one class is to kill, it's how essential the class is to objectives, and tanksins are the best class to bring in any warzone. They can stealth, open doors, tank, score, and defend in huttball ALL RUNNING ONE SPEC. For me, as a PT, I have to choose between scoring or keeping mid with dmg in huttball for instance (shieldtech vs. pyro), and I can never do things that the tanksin can do AT ALL TIMES.

 

That's why they break the game, if any. Not because they are good 1v1 or hard to die or anything like that. It's not deathmatch. C'mon, they have force/tech immunity->Most DMG AND CC immunity, force speed, stealth, good tank/dps...C'mon...

Edited April 21, 2012 by SneiK

[Zerogates]

Don't forget, it's not about how hard one class is to kill, it's how essential the class is to objectives, and tanksins are the best class to bring in any warzone. They can stealth, open doors, tank, score, and defend in huttball ALL RUNNING ONE SPEC. For me, as a PT, I have to choose between scoring or keeping mid with dmg in huttball for instance (shieldtech vs. pyro), and I can never do things that the tanksin can do AT ALL TIMES.

 

That's why they break the game, if any. Not because they are good 1v1 or hard to die or anything like that. It's not deathmatch. C'mon, they have force/tech immunity->Most DMG AND CC immunity, force speed, stealth, good tank/dps...C'mon...

 

Our utility is too high like you say, not our damage or survival.

 

Players will not be able to QQ our damage down though, because despite their whining it is not possible to produce damage numbers that warrant a nerf. When people see an assassin or shadow do high amounts of damage they just assume they are tanks, but those are not tanks. My assassin is endurance>willpower and def/crit/surge built and produces maybe 180-220k DPS in most warzone matches but survives really well. If I was willpower and power/crit/surge then I would be a DPS built assassin.

 

14% defence rating and 16,000 max health is a DPS. I have 18,500 max health and 23.5% def rating, that makes me a tank.

[Heith]

yeah they are needing a nerf bad

[Gren-Aluren]

Compared to the other Tank Classes and their current specs a Tank Assassin even in tank gear does almost DOUBLE the DPS a Guardian does and about 30% more then what a Vanguard does. Their survivability and utility is also way more then what other tank classes have.

 

If you don't believe me then re-roll the other tank classes and you'll see a Shadow does everything better plus they get stealth and self-healing (Guardian's self-healing from a tanking perspective doesn't count as it loses threat.)

[Zintair]

Compared to the other Tank Classes and their current specs a Tank Assassin even in tank gear does almost DOUBLE the DPS a Guardian does and about 30% more then what a Vanguard does. Their survivability and utility is also way more then what other tank classes have.

 

If you don't believe me then re-roll the other tank classes and you'll see a Shadow does everything better plus they get stealth and self-healing (Guardian's self-healing from a tanking perspective doesn't count as it loses threat.)

 

How does Healing yourself drop threat? And this is PvP?