Harnessed darkness/shadows needs balancing (PVP)

[Xinika]

Then again said other 2 tanks dont posses the same utility and CC we have. We offer something different, but what we offer in the grand scale is way more then the other two can ever dream off.

 

You really think so? That's not entirely accurate at all. We are a jack of all trades but have no true ground in none. Which is why KC is being replaced more and more.

 

VGs for example, can do everything we can but better. Granted, they do not have abilities such as sprint nor is their mitigation self-heals. They also have their version of Slow Time's debuff. They can also charge and pull (w/ a root).

 

Guardians are amazing and the kings of huttball. Their ability to leap and intercept back to their team mates are outstanding. They can also completely slow and disable an entire team at once. Our MT in premades is now a guardian tank and I will not dare think of replacing him with any KC. Their utility surpasses our own in terms of how much they can help their team, guard friendlies and stop enemy objectives.

 

Under the backing of a healer, these two tanks are superior to KC. The only thing you have a slight damage increase over Guardians which alone will not be enough to fend off against an entire team.

Edited April 17, 2012 by Xinika

[Payneintherear]

I don’t think most people realize how close Kinetic is from being a virtually useless spec.

 

It's a tank spec that's literally the worst real tank spec. The only reason people play it is because they can get some of the tank perks without having their damage output fall off a cliff. (That and the other specs aren't offering much competition.) If Kinetic's damage gets nerfed significantly, there's no reason to play the spec in either PvP or PvE because both of the other tanks would just dominate it entirely.

 

At least right now the spec has an upside - even when that upside isn't going to be enough to maintain many spots in serious ranked PvP going forward.

 

Kinetic's damage without Harnessed Darkness is good enough. My suggested nerf to Harnessed Darkness's damage would not break the build.

[Xinika]

Kinetic's damage without Harnessed Darkness is good enough. My suggested nerf to Harnessed Darkness's damage would not break the build.

 

Why bring a KC for DPS when you can have a Watchman Sent?

[Boarg]

In serious ranked WZ and competitive PvP, NO ONE will ever bring a infil/decep or a balance/madness to the match setup due to being very squichy and easy to kill. KC/Darkness is the only viable one unless youre guarded and healed by a very good premade.

 

I'm not arguing that people will be clamouring for dps shadows in ranked warzones, but the dps specs will have more place than a Kinetic player.

 

Ranked warzones will have coordinated groups using coordinated burst to get quick kills and gain numbers advantage as well as potentially ninja-ing objectives. A dps shadow can do that unimpeded from stealth and at short term burst levels on par with pretty much anyone. The spots will be there for good players.

 

Kinetic on the other hand… Burst from stealth? People take real dps for that. Guard a healer? People take a real tank for that. Ball carry? Take a Guardian. Ninja an objective? Scoundrel or dps Shadow for that.

 

Coordinated PvP is executing specific strats with the specs that can execute them best. For any given strat, there's several other specs that can execute it better - unless you count 1v1ing out in the field a winning strat. Kinetic's flexibility and ability to operate without support don't count for much in coordinated PvP that is more about niches and specializations.

[Payneintherear]

Why bring a KC for DPS when you can have a Watchman Sent?

 

There's no answer that would make any sense to that question. I never said I wanted Kinetic nerfed before other things are nerfed equally or in some cases harder.

 

The game has its weaknesses balance-wise, there's no denying that. Marauders and Sentinels or Pyrotechs and Vanguards are very much testimony of that.

[Xinika]

There's no answer that would make any sense to that question. I never said I wanted Kinetic nerfed before other things are nerfed equally or in some cases harder.

 

The game has its weaknesses balance-wise, there's no denying that. Marauders and Sentinels or Pyrotechs and Vanguards are very much testimony of that.

 

I'm just... saying. We're on the bench line. All our specs are replaceable by other classes who can do it better.

[Payneintherear]

Ranked warzones will have coordinated groups using coordinated burst to get quick kills and gain numbers advantage as well as potentially ninja-ing objectives. A dps shadow can do that unimpeded from stealth and at short term burst levels on par with pretty much anyone. The spots will be there for good players.

 

This is wishful thinking. As a good player, as soon as a Infiltration Shadow pops out of stealth he eats a taunt, followed by an immediate guard switch to his target (if he is part of an assist train. If he isn't he just dies, before he can harm anybody as soon as he gets knocked down).

 

The survivability of the Kinetic is what makes the build a much better addition to 99% of the premades you will see in ranked warzones. That's why Marauders and Sentinels are so good (their damage is nice and all, but it's secondary. What makes them the undisputed kings is the fact that they can put on the pressure under pressure and not fold instantly).

 

It's disturbing how much people think burst classes will rock ranked warzones, yet everybody sees how incredibly awesome Marauders and Sentinels are despite the fact that they are not the #1 burst class.

[Payneintherear]

I'm just... saying. We're on the bench line. All our specs are replaceable by other classes who can do it better.

 

That is spot on, unfortunately. It's always been like that in any game I have played. Generalists fill holes and rock PUGs.

[Neamhan]

Then again said other 2 tanks dont posses the same utility and CC we have. We offer something different, but what we offer in the grand scale is way more then the other two can ever dream off.

 

Don't make me list all the utility a Guardian tank has. Suffice it to say it's comparable to an Assassin tank.

 

Harnessed Shadows is fine. The entire reason Assassins have less DR than the other tanks is because of the self heals they get and the damage it can do in 3 seconds is comparable to the damage the other tanks can do in 3 seconds. The fact that the heal and damage is rolled into one skill is as much a disadvantage as an advantage, since one CC/knockback cancels out both the heal and the damage. While TK Throw is 'ranged', that range is only 10m. That's not much farther than melee range.

[Moonheart_S]

It is a pointless discussion at it only revolve around looking at ONE ability without taking anything else in account.

Looking like that, I'm pretty sure we could find lots of abilities in every tree that are out balanced as well...

Want to ask a melee player what he thinks about the 2s root + dot for 1pts of Sever Force?

 

Also... Yes, the 2 points in Harnessed Shadows are about probably the most rewarding of the whole tree... but how many useless points you have in the same tree that are requiered for it?

Want us to re-open the debate about which is the less crap: Expertise or the 1% endurance ability, that we NEED to take to reach the 25 total points needed for HS?

 

So, yes, H.S. is good. But no, it doesn't need to be nerfed.

Every spec has its good abilities and crap abilities. H.S. is our good one. If you nerf it, just nerf every good ability of the other trees... what about cut the damage boost of Battle Readiness in Infiltration spec? Damn ! Double damage for 0 pts! Nerf it! Should be only x1.2! (just kidding to show how ridiculous it is to want to nerf something because it looks too powerful for its cost without looking at the global situation)

[Hethroin]

... Or better yet, let's compare a harnessed TK throw to master strike sense they both operate similarly.

THAT, my friend, is exactly what you should compare it to and you understand how HD TT is vastly off target. Both these abilities deal about the same damage (feel free to pull some tooltip numbers for these and note down the damage bonus), only that Shadow's TT will also heal at the same time and allow you to be used from 30m range when needed.

 

Yes, my level 48 Sentinel's Master Strike does the same amount of damage as a full BM shadow's Harnessed TK throw. The last hit of master strike hits for around 3k, and is followed immediately by a Merciless Slash that hits for roughly the same amount. There is no question in my mind that KC shadow damage is about 70% the damage of a full DPS spec-ed class. With a very low burst window, when the target is above 30% health.

 

Personally I don't have a bias one way or another about HD/HS my stalkers don't use it. I opt instead for heavier crtis on double strikes, FiB, and instant lift. These options round out my mobile play style better than standing still and channeling throw every 10-15 seconds.

 

I think if the heal is removed from HS/HD, the shadow needs to be compensated with additional passive mitigation in its place. Something like allowing the stacks to cause incoming damage reduction.

Edited April 18, 2012 by Hethroin

[Boarg]

This is wishful thinking. As a good player, as soon as a Infiltration Shadow pops out of stealth he eats a taunt, followed by an immediate guard switch to his target (if he is part of an assist train. If he isn't he just dies, before he can harm anybody as soon as he gets knocked down).

 

The survivability of the Kinetic is what makes the build a much better addition to 99% of the premades you will see in ranked warzones. That's why Marauders and Sentinels are so good (their damage is nice and all, but it's secondary. What makes them the undisputed kings is the fact that they can put on the pressure under pressure and not fold instantly).

 

It's disturbing how much people think burst classes will rock ranked warzones, yet everybody sees how incredibly awesome Marauders and Sentinels are despite the fact that they are not the #1 burst class.

 

You talk like the Shadow is acting alone when discussing a group vs. group hypothetical. That pro tank is generally already engaged in combat and possibly already used their taunt. If not, who are they going to use it on? The shadow or the scoundrel or the commando or the sentinel, etc.? And even if they get it all out reactively, with 3 people focusing the target, it's going to die anyway. People die with tank support all the time even to disorganized pugs, let alone to top notch dps players coordinating their damage.

 

Sentinels are pretty much a total package right now other than not having stealth. They have the highest sustained single target dps in game. Their burst is good enough to put against anyone else you want to compare to. (Hard not to when overall dps is as high as theirs.) They have multiple interrupts. And, they have amazing defensive cooldowns that can deny a kill attempt against any number of attackers for 5-10 seconds without any support whatsoever if they have their cooldowns. Who cares if someone else might technically have 5% more burst in a 3 GCD window or something?

 

The thing is, the tank spec shadows are already fading in popularity, even without the ranked warzones, and getting replaced with real dps and real tanks. Pre-1.2, warzones were frequently crammed with hybrid players and durable dps. Healing was OP, and healing tough players often meant being unkillable as a group. That's less the case now with the healer nerfs and more a case of having to kill faster than the other guy. Groups have been running more dedicated dps classes and offhealers to accomplish that. There was even a thread a little while back of a premade group that switched people out to run all dps classes and talked about how much easier they were rolling everyone they fought (not that really recommend going that far since it should be counterable with a good group.)

 

It's not like I'm talking elite communication skills here, either - just everyday execution. Lets say a team has two Trooper dps, a Sentinel, and a Scoundrel. The two troopers each pick a sensible target and start shooting - which is graphically obvious to their teammates. The Scoundrel and Sentinel can then elect to stealth/leap to each of those targets or pile on the same one. If they pile on the same one, even a free casting healer and a tank supporting won't be able to keep that target alive. If they split, it would take everything a free casting healer and a tank could do to keep one alive, while the other dies. No body even needs to say a word; it's just what they do. And if they all want to hit one thing and make sure it dies, they can throw a changeup and do that too by just having one guy call the target. Just good players and practice.

[RobNightfall]

It is a pointless discussion at it only revolve around looking at ONE ability without taking anything else in account.

Looking like that, I'm pretty sure we could find lots of abilities in every tree that are out balanced as well...

Want to ask a melee player what he thinks about the 2s root + dot for 1pts of Sever Force?

 

Also... Yes, the 2 points in Harnessed Shadows are about probably the most rewarding of the whole tree... but how many useless points you have in the same tree that are requiered for it?

Want us to re-open the debate about which is the less crap: Expertise or the 1% endurance ability, that we NEED to take to reach the 25 total points needed for HS?

 

So, yes, H.S. is good. But no, it doesn't need to be nerfed.

Every spec has its good abilities and crap abilities. H.S. is our good one. If you nerf it, just nerf every good ability of the other trees... what about cut the damage boost of Battle Readiness in Infiltration spec? Damn ! Double damage for 0 pts! Nerf it! Should be only x1.2! (just kidding to show how ridiculous it is to want to nerf something because it looks too powerful for its cost without looking at the global situation)

 

This. OP, you're acting like HS is at the bottom of the tree and it's not. As I posted earlier, you have to commit to the spec to take it at a bare minimum of 27 points spent in a tree with a lot of crap filler in it. HS is fine, and our DPS isn't that great compared to other classes and our tanking isn't that great compared to other classes. Shadows are generalists, and in a game that balances its classes on specialist specs, this weakens us considerably. We can't tank or DPS as well as others can, period.

[_Scattered_]

A pyro powertech/marauder can drop you from 100-0% in 15 seconds and somehow a 1600 heal every 12 seconds is over tuned.

 

The heal is that bad I usually tk throw on 2 stack HS.

Edited April 19, 2012 by _Scattered_

[lilmanweddle]

The only reason people play it is because they can get some of the tank perks without having their damage output fall off a cliff.

 

That's not why I play it.

[Boarg]

That's not why I play it.

 

And your objective reason is...?

[Zintair]

Reason for that is due to changes with gear and expertise. Give it some time for people to aquire WH gear, itemize it for pure power/willpower and augments, and see KC/Darkness rock this game again like pre 1.2.

 

Its only a temporary setback before the calm is over and the storm arises.

 

You still don't have a clue. First of all. If Assassins or Shadows are cycling TKT on HS cooldown timer their DPS will be LOWER than what they can actually do.

 

The fact that you say you play PvP at a high level is completely ridiculous because there is no level of PvP in this game.

 

 

I've said it from the start, DPS Shadow Tanks are the LOLZ. They are only effective in games where there is no organization.

 

Full tank or go DPS because you just aren't that good at anything.

[Grymtusk]

Finally got your attention.

 

In my opinion if you want heals, get a healer. Being so self-sustainable through heals so fast and often, it really doesnt justify the low mitigation. The talent should either be re-designed and certainly NOT for 2 points. One class should not have its survival and damage defined by a single talent alone for the majority of the time, when its the whole tree which should.

 

as for preventing if from going off at 3 stacks then let me quote Astarica from the assassin section:

 

"Stun is silly as a counter because it stops every abilty in the game so saying that something that can counter everything works on FL doesn't mean much.

 

KB is actually pretty useless against FLs if you know your positioning. You use the time building up HD stacks to get distance versus melee so they can't blind/KB you, and ranged classes will not just purposely walk up to you in melee range to KB. The most likely way FL gets interrupted is by a drive-by blind/KB from someone else you didn't see, but that's just the nature of AE CCs. If you have to fill someone's resolve to deal with an ability that can be used every 6 seconds, you're going to run into trouble sooner or later. Besides, you can always Force Shroud "

 

Need a block feature in these forums.

[Devorasx]

You still don't have a clue. First of all. If Assassins or Shadows are cycling TKT on HS cooldown timer their DPS will be LOWER than what they can actually do.

 

I've said it from the start, DPS Shadow Tanks are the LOLZ. They are only effective in games where there is no organization.

 

Full tank or go DPS because you just aren't that good at anything.

 

How can it be lower when expertise is increasing damage output pr point HIGHER versus the damage reduced pr point, and when gear is itemized to do more damage? Show me parses. As for the TKT cycling it on HS cooldown, they have done so since the start. Project, Slow time, double strike (proc), project, resilience, pop andrenals/relics and watch TKT do loldmg for 8-10k. And this you can rinse and repeat on a 8-10 sec cycle. Hell even guards/vans in their respective tank specs dont have a single attack that generates THAT much damage over the course of a 4 sec channel, and cant be interrupted. And on top of it heals you for 12%. A tank spec should not be king tank AND do great dmg+ the debuff benefits from slow time. Just the debuff itself is virtually a permanent slow and you can dictate the flow of combat by the mobility advantage making LoSìng and interrupting TKT hard to accomplish.

 

IF shadow tanks are the LOLZ as you say, why are almost 90% of shadows playing this lolspec? And what other spec(s) do you suggest besides the 2 other trees which will seldom, if not ever at all find a place in competitive pvp?

 

Again, im calling for the removal of the damage boost to this talent. Youre after all in a TANK spec. and youre job is to soak damage, not dish out great damage and be tank king at the same time.

[LagunaD]

Again, im calling for the removal of the damage boost to this talent. Youre after all in a TANK spec. and youre job is to soak damage, not dish out great damage and be tank king at the same time.

 

Do you not understand that HS-enhanced TKT is by far the best single-target threat ability we have, and that Shadows would be finished as PvE tanks without both the heal and the increased damage?

[Devorasx]

Do you not understand that HS-enhanced TKT is by far the best single-target threat ability we have, and that Shadows would be finished as PvE tanks without both the heal and the increased damage?

 

Nothing BW cant fix as its all in the programming in regards to threat. Just make Combat tech and other related talents that generate threat increase its factor by X to compensate. Ta-da fixed.

[dronepilot]

Who cares, nerf the shadow ! we do too much dps !! - omg, we *might* actually be able to go toe to to with other Assassins and oh wait ! even Mara's too ! - better get the nerf bat out.

[_Scattered_]

How can it be lower when expertise is increasing damage output pr point HIGHER versus the damage reduced pr point, and when gear is itemized to do more damage? Show me parses. As for the TKT cycling it on HS cooldown, they have done so since the start. Project, Slow time, double strike (proc), project, resilience, pop andrenals/relics and watch TKT do loldmg for 8-10k. And this you can rinse and repeat on a 8-10 sec cycle. Hell even guards/vans in their respective tank specs dont have a single attack that generates THAT much damage over the course of a 4 sec channel, and cant be interrupted. And on top of it heals you for 12%. A tank spec should not be king tank AND do great dmg+ the debuff benefits from slow time. Just the debuff itself is virtually a permanent slow and you can dictate the flow of combat by the mobility advantage making LoSìng and interrupting TKT hard to accomplish.

 

IF shadow tanks are the LOLZ as you say, why are almost 90% of shadows playing this lolspec? And what other spec(s) do you suggest besides the 2 other trees which will seldom, if not ever at all find a place in competitive pvp?

 

Again, im calling for the removal of the damage boost to this talent. Youre after all in a TANK spec. and youre job is to soak damage, not dish out great damage and be tank king at the same time.

 

You do not have enough force to have 3 stack HS every 8-10 seconds, it is simply not possible. Furthermore outside of burst setups 3 stack HS is a dps loss compared to tk throw spam on 2 stack. You don't double strike much if at all with a 31 point KC build, which is the only build that can viably stack HS with any kind of speed. A 31/0/17 build is not possible sorry.

 

You can do at most 2.2k crit ticks of tk throw only when you pop adrenals + force potency + relic on a geared sorc, that is a 3 minute cd. You also need to be stacking power out the *** that includes the use of a focus, which will leave you with around 17-18k hp buffed assuming you specced fortitude. This burst is easily countered unless you protect it by popping your most important survival cd.

 

If you have at most 18k hp 12% is 2160 heal...minus 30% from trauma around 1600 heal. It isn't a 12% heal you moron it is a 8.4% heal. This kind of healing is absolutely pathetic given how quickly everyone is dying in pvp in 1.2

 

TK throw can be interrupted by knock backs, stuns, los, vanish and range.

 

Tanking in pve and tanking in pvp is not equivalent, all tanks must be able to put out decent offensive pressure to not be benched for another healer/dps, all tanks in pvp are actually hybrid dps with shadow being the strongest offensively and weakest defensively. No amount of utility a tank can offer can make up for doing only 50k damage when objective based pvp in this game gives you a time limit to wipe a node before reinforcements/respawns arrive. This requires having as much damage as possible to increase the chance of capping a node.

 

Tanks in this game are not even that tanky especially shadows, defence/shield stats are largely useless and what is at most 5k more health when you are getting whacked by 4k railshots.

 

KC shadows are strong in 1v1 which is why there is so much whine, but it has nothing to with being tanks or the heal on tk throw and has everything to do with the use of defensive/offensive cds and single target cc which doesn't scale in group pvp.

Edited April 27, 2012 by _Scattered_

[NeverRose]

 

KC shadows are strong in 1v1 which is why there is so much whine, but it has nothing to with being tanks or the heal on tk throw and has everything to do with the use of defensive/offensive cds and single target cc which doesn't scale in group pvp.

 

 

+100000000000 to this post.

 

 

No one ever denied that KCs are strong in duels but tell me...So what they are? They don't bring as much to the team as Guardian (for tank part) nor Sentinels (For dps part).

 

 

Tell me, are we talking about ganking half-asleep people on Lolum here or competetive *group* gameplay?

 

 

As Japanese people say: Notodisushytuuagainu.

Edited April 27, 2012 by NeverRose

[Moonheart_S]

As for the TKT cycling it on HS cooldown, they have done so since the start. Project, Slow time, double strike (proc), project, resilience, pop andrenals/relics and watch TKT do loldmg for 8-10k.

 

That's 8k damage over 2 GCD, which means 4k per GCD on a full, and long rotation. Outside of this our damage is crap (not a complaint, we have other advantages).

You can't just look at the best damage ability of a class to judge its efficiency or to say that ability need a nerf.

 

And this you can rinse and repeat on a 8-10 sec cycle.

 

No, you can't.

At the fastest possible, you're going to need 6 GCD so 9s to perform a TK+3HS without resilience. And this is if you are lucky with procs.

If you succeed to do it in 9s, you're going to burn 161 force points at minimum. That's about 27 pts/GCD. About 10 more force point we recover per GCD, which means that in 10 GCD you are going to be force depleted.

 

==> You're not going to be able to run that combo even twice in a row (12GCD) to due the heavy force consumption. Even if you are lucky on procs (if you are not, this is worst).

AND your resilience doesn't recover in 10s.

AND it still have lots of way to break the TK channeling even with it (LoS, leap out of range, force cloak, resilience...)

 

--------------------------------------------------

 

You want to know how powerful we truly are at DPS?

With the same gear, on the same pvp dummy, during the same duration (3 mn) and using the same biochimy boost:

- with KC spec, abusing TK at it's fullest, my DPS is 800

- with infiltration spec, my DPS is 1100

The infiltration spec do +37% dps over time.

 

Reducing the time at 20s (burst):

- with KC spec, abusing TK at it's fullest, my DPS is 900

- with infiltration spec, my DPS is 1400

The infiltration spec do +55% dps on bursts.

 

So is the damage of TK+3HS overpowered? Seems not to me.

 

Now, once again, yes, there is the combat technique and the 12% healing thing.

And once again: we are tanks. If we aren't supposed to win our duels over time, which class is supposed to?