Can tactics hold its own against assault now in pvp? General questions.

[Chocodaddy]

honestly while the tactics tree is still viable , it doesn't hold a candle to the burst damage that AS has,or the survivability of shield spec. and burst damage is pretty much the only damage that matters in pvp. unless your gonna be running the huttball, tactics is still subpar to both other specs as far as pvp is concerned. and even with running the huttball there are classes that are way better at it then trooper. so if you want to play a spec that really has no position in pvp id stick with something else.

[TheOpf]

honestly while the tactics tree is still viable , it doesn't hold a candle to the burst damage that AS has,or the survivability of shield spec. and burst damage is pretty much the only damage that matters in pvp. unless your gonna be running the huttball, tactics is still subpar to both other specs as far as pvp is concerned. and even with running the huttball there are classes that are way better at it then trooper. so if you want to play a spec that really has no position in pvp id stick with something else.

 

Um, no, Tactics burst is exactly the same as Assault's currently. The only thing holding Tactics back is the bugged Pulse Generator.

 

Both Assault and Tactics can hit anywhere from 8-12k in a span of 6 seconds. They just do it differently.

[Chocodaddy]

tatics burst isnt even on the radar compared to AS. b. fire blast doesn't hold a candle to assault plastiqe . HIB has up to 90% armor pen when you spec in to AS not to mention the procs on hib. they are far from the the same. and counting pulse cannon as burst is simply foolish. not 2 mention 2 dots that tic for very good damage along with the increase damage below 30% health. Edited April 21, 2012 by Chocodaddy

[TheOpf]

tatics and as burst is not the same. fire blast doesn't hold a candle to assault plastiqe and hib has up to 90% armor pen when you spec in to AS not to mention the procs on hib. they are far from the the same. and counting pulse cannon as burst is simply foolish.

 

haha, than nothing with a cast time is burst ;p. The damage is done over the same period of time. If you can count TD/RS/RP/RS as burst than PC is most definitely burst.

 

Alot of tactics builds don't use HiB. Using HiB and Plastique as your debate points is ridiculous. Plastique as a delay before it hits so Fire Blast is better because it's immediate using your logic this must be true. Because if PC isn't burst than Plastique isn't burst. Good luck using that logic.

[Chocodaddy]

you must be a noob to pvp so let me explain. having a delay on assault plastiqe actually makes it better because you can line up its detonation with your HIB>stockstrike>HiB. combo. instead of the damage coming in streams like tactics. the damage all comes at once. the only ability thats worth a damn that hits harder in Tactics spec is ion pulse and stock strike and not by much..honestly there is no point in arguing cause most vanguards still agree that AS is still superior to tactics.

[Cryowolf]

Someone correct me if I am wrong (as if that needs to be said here, ha!), but here is how I see it.

 

Assuming best case scenario with all crits using battle focus, relic and adrenal.

 

Assault Burst Combo:

0---------------->1.5------------>3.0------------->4.5

AP-------------->HiB----------->SS------------->HiB

4K(delay)----->5K------------->2.2K---------->5K = 16.2K over 4.5

 

Tactics Burst Combo:

0---------------->1.5------------>3.0------------->4.5

PC-------------------------------->FP------------->SS

8.8K(2.2K ticks)--------------->3.8K---------->3.2K = 15.8K over 4.5

 

You can say that all 4 tics of PC will not crit together often,but the first half of tactics burst hits multiples to increase pressure. You can say that 40% of the time you won't get that 2nd HiB, but it's all instant casts so it is hard to be stopped.

 

Assault has a delayed burst with AP where it explodes roughly with SS for a 6.2K combined hit.

 

Tactics also has a delayed burst where the last tick of PC hits with FP for a 6K combined hit.

 

Do I think Assault wins? Yes, but not by the leaps and bounds claimed by some. The burst is "different" but both are very strong.

[Chocodaddy]

the thing is, is that 2.2k ticks on a channeled spell is not burst. its way to easy to interrupt with a well times stun or simply move out of. then for its full effect you have to set up the 5 stacks of the buff so even more so this burst you speak of requires way more set up then AS does. is it strong yes. but its far far to situational to be considered a burst ability. the tactics tree is sloppy, lacking any real synergy to make it useable over AS. when ranked WZs begin i think more and more people will realize this. Edited April 21, 2012 by Chocodaddy

[Tootzi_]

....But with Tactics you can spam 2000-2500 like a maniac after the FIRST burst because of the ammo regen.

 

I was assault fist but been tactics for a while now. Even when I switch back to assault I still feel like the dps is "better" with tactics. But then I must admit, I quite good with aoe stun + pulse cannon

 

But just think about one thing. Both speccs are good, its just a matter of wich playstyle you prefer the most.

Edited April 21, 2012 by Tootzi_

[TehMerc]

 

I was assault fist but been tactics for a while now. Even when I switch back to assault I still feel like the dps is "better" with tactics.

 

Was competing with a fellow assault vanguard the other night in a Ops, we were both within 1-2% of each other the whole time for the most part, with him maybe edging me that % most of the night. They're both pretty even it feels like but I wouldn't make it official until I had a chance to play other vanguards.

[exphryl]

It's a bit silly to compare tactics burst to Assault burst when Tactics requires at the very least, 5 GCDs to put out somewhat comparable damage, not counting if you want to add in a stun to try to get the max effect.

 

Not to mention if you add Gut in as an extra GCD for a snare to prevent the player from getting away before you are at 5 stacks. (That 15% speed from the cylinder is fine and dandy unless you are snared yourself which will happen most of the time)

 

It's almost an asinine comparison to compare the burst of the two in this manner.

 

Assault: Higher burst, and easily attainable burst compared to Tactics

Tactics: Better sustained damage due to better built in resource management.

Edited April 21, 2012 by exphryl

[Taunque]

They should have granted the full buff at 3 stacks instead of 5.

[Chocodaddy]

It's a bit silly to compare tactics burst to Assault burst when Tactics requires at the very least, 5 GCDs to put out somewhat comparable damage, not counting if you want to add in a stun to try to get the max effect.

 

Not to mention if you add Gut in as an extra GCD for a snare to prevent the player from getting away before you are at 5 stacks. (That 15% speed from the cylinder is fine and dandy unless you are snared yourself which will happen most of the time)

 

It's almost an asinine comparison to compare the burst of the two in this manner.

 

Assault: Higher burst, and easily attainable burst compared to Tactics

Tactics: Better sustained damage due to better built in resource management.

 

thank you so very, very much. i could not have said it better myself

[TheOpf]

It's a bit silly to compare tactics burst to Assault burst when Tactics requires at the very least, 5 GCDs to put out somewhat comparable damage, not counting if you want to add in a stun to try to get the max effect.

 

Not to mention if you add Gut in as an extra GCD for a snare to prevent the player from getting away before you are at 5 stacks. (That 15% speed from the cylinder is fine and dandy unless you are snared yourself which will happen most of the time)

 

It's almost an asinine comparison to compare the burst of the two in this manner.

 

Assault: Higher burst, and easily attainable burst compared to Tactics

Tactics: Better sustained damage due to better built in resource management.

 

I agree for the most part. For me. It's not silly to compare because of the ramp time. Remember non of Tactics attacks except HiB is mitigated by armor.

 

If you take just the 6 sec burst times they are pretty close. It should read more like.

 

Assault: quicker,and more mobile burst (you do not have to be stationary to use your burst)

Tactics: Better sustained damage after burst. Due to less of a reliance on mitigation attacks and weaving Rapid shots.

 

To be honest I miss the mobile burst of Pyro/Assault, and until they fix the pc slow Tactics will always be lagging.

 

Btw HTL is great for ignoring snares. I have never had a guy I was chasing get away because I didn't have guts snare.

[Nezyrworks]

I agree for the most part. For me. It's not silly to compare because of the ramp time. Remember non of Tactics attacks except HiB is mitigated by armor.

 

If you take just the 6 sec burst times they are pretty close. It should read more like.

 

Assault: quicker,and more mobile burst (you do not have to be stationary to use your burst)

Tactics: Better sustained damage after burst. Due to less of a reliance on mitigation attacks and weaving Rapid shots.

 

To be honest I miss the mobile burst of Pyro/Assault, and until they fix the pc slow Tactics will always be lagging.

 

Btw HTL is great for ignoring snares. I have never had a guy I was chasing get away because I didn't have guts snare.

 

they had answered my ticket today, and i had a live chat with customer service. I was also officially informed about Pulse Cannon having now 4 ticks instead of 3 (before 1.2).

 

We should expect patch notes informations about pulse generator (adding 20% damage but not the slow) and battle tactics (working only 50% of the time) any day soon. (The ticket was delivered to development team and they currently make tests on both talents).

 

So keep your fingers crossed.

Edited April 21, 2012 by Nezyrworks

[Taunque]

I hope they fix this soon, but the fact that this happened in the first place tells me that no one at Bioware plays a Tactics Vanguard.

[Fdzzaigl]

My apologies, I should have clarified. I mean when you plan to use both MV and PC in conjunction that you should always use MV first.

 

Again, it depends

 

If you're up close and they just group up in front of you while you have 5 stacks of PC, I'd say use PC first, then Neural Surge combined with Mortar Volley from point blank range.

[me_unknown]

honestly while the tactics tree is still viable , it doesn't hold a candle to the burst damage that AS has,or the survivability of shield spec. and burst damage is pretty much the only damage that matters in pvp. unless your gonna be running the huttball, tactics is still subpar to both other specs as far as pvp is concerned. and even with running the huttball there are classes that are way better at it then trooper. so if you want to play a spec that really has no position in pvp id stick with something else.

i disagre:

 

1. you can play tactics with ion cell, which gives you a similar (not as good but by far better) survivability

2. assault has no big burst after 1.2. well, at least not as much as to justify how weak you are in a group match (1on1 or vs2 it is still excelent).

3. burst is a good thing in pvp but you seem to overrate it. the only opponents where you need burst are healers. beside of them you don't need burst, good dps is good enough, especially if you are hard to kill

 

edit: beside of this, using an if like build there are no classes that are FAR better as ball carrier. maybe, at most slightly better, though this highly depends on the situation and teams. but far better is simply absurd!

 

i would say, after 1.2 assault is the weakest build we have regarding warzones. you need to get in close combat but won't survive a few seconds if they focus you which i allways would do when i see a pyro/assault one.

yes, ion cell changes this dramatically. of course, if your equip and build sucks, then even ion cell won't help you much, neither when 8 enemies are focusing you.

Edited April 21, 2012 by me_unknown

[TehMerc]

It's a bit silly to compare tactics burst to Assault burst when Tactics requires at the very least, 5 GCDs to put out somewhat comparable damage, not counting if you want to add in a stun to try to get the max effect.

 

You know you can build stacks while out of combat now with explosive surge not needing to hit targets right? You won't always get to 5 stacks before another wave of enemies but hitting it once or twice on the way to a turret conservatively greatly reduces your build up time for burst.

 

And once PC gets it's 70% snare it won't be so much of an issue to keep enemies in it.

[Fafryd]

Assault is superior. The ability to apply pressure and move and still hurt from range makes it the better spec - particularly given how burst driven wiz are at the moment.

[bglodt]

Assault is superior. The ability to apply pressure and move and still hurt from range makes it the better spec - particularly given how burst driven wiz are at the moment.

 

Hmmm everyone keeps talking about burst from range.... Which outside of one HiB and one AP every 13 or 15 seconds you don't have. To be most effective Assault needs to be at less than 10m range. When you speak of assault burst your speaking of pooping cooldowns... AP, IR, HiB, Hammer, Ion pulse/stock strike till you get proc and HiB again. SS, ion pulse, and the Second HiB are all parts of the assault burst... Without them.... There is no assault burst.

 

Assault can do good damage at range with just dots, rapid fire, hammer shot, MV, and HiB/AP every 15 seconds...but this....is... Not.... Burst.

 

The original question from the op was "Can tactics hold its own against assault in pvp?" the answer is yes. Whether its in 1v1 or the group setting, the answer is yes. Each has a different play style. Assault burst is easier... But so is its sustained to be honest. From my own parses which are in agreement with others posted on the forums... Surprisingly the biggest OVERALL damage dealer for assault build is from the burn effects of IR and PC. Which btw was extremely surprising.

 

In tactics my parsers have shown I do the most damage with ion pulse... Probably due to the spam to get 5 stacks . Now... Tactics is still competitive, and does similar damage overall, with pretty good burst... Free SS to auto crit HiB, sandwiched between to elemental attacks that are not shieldable or mitagated and hit for 1500-2400 themselves.... 6 seconds at minimal ammo cost for 10k damage with crits ( HiB is auto crit and with one cooldowns and my base stats i easily crit 2 of the other three attacks).... And I haven't even used pulse cannon. If i have 5 stacks... And use PC... After a cooldown use a PC can reasonably be expected to do an additional 6-8k to EACH target. Shoot if I do the first rotation and finish with cryo and PC... Your done. What usually happens is the first tick blows and they to OH Shoot and trinket and KB, or stun by then second tick has hit...But now.... They've burned a CD and taken 10-13k damage....

 

And I'm running ion cell so they are dotted.... And I have better survivability....

 

Is assault good? Yes. Do I lose to assault or pyros? Not often... I win 60-65% of these 1v1 vs good players. Unless they get some reall lucky crits and I don't. Obviously closer to 90% with undergeared and less experienced and closer to 30% against the rare few.

 

Both are good. Both can dps. Both can take healers. Both can kill the other. Pick the one you like the most. If people tell you tactics sucks... Even as it is... I would argue that they don't know what they are talking about.... Never played the class for mor than a few days.... Is tactics themselves and want it to remain a secret.... Or are just trolling idiots!

[Nemeaus]

It is my belief that although Pulse Cannon is VERY important to the Tactics build, one should expand the mind and not simply be waiting for that cooldown to come back up. Don't make it your "crutch". Tactics is about consistent solid dps. I'm waiting for the goodies to pop but I'm not waiting to do damage. Either I'm gutting, fire pulsing, ion pulsing, pulse cannoning, harpoon trolling a healer or turret dps, or mortal volleying when I can sneak it in. During all that time I'm PTFOing. This advanced class is amazing. Just let yourself fall into the rhythm because believe me, when the gates come down and you come out, all your enemies hear is the chainsaw of death known as you the Tactics Vanguard.

 

Note: One of my principle reasons for rolling this particular advanced class was the question of it's viability. "Tactics sucks." Tactics is weird." "Assault is the only way to go in PVP" Lol. I honestly do not believe that I have been out damaged by an Assault Vanguard in a WZ ever. To be fair, maybe that first WZ match I played as a Vanguard. It was terrible. I have a gunnery commando buddy who can out damage me and sages/sorcs...well what can you do about the allied ones but be glad they're on your team. As far as as the enemy ones, harpoon, hold the line and LOL when they try to knock you back, can't, and evacuate their bowels. I'm fond of dancing with them in pvp because you'll see them pause thinking "***".

 

Anywho, just wanted to show my love and appreciation for Tactics. Give it a try if you're curious.

[Chocodaddy]

i disagre:

 

1. you can play tactics with ion cell, which gives you a similar (not as good but by far better) survivability

2. assault has no big burst after 1.2. well, at least not as much as to justify how weak you are in a group match (1on1 or vs2 it is still excelent).

3. burst is a good thing in pvp but you seem to overrate it. the only opponents where you need burst are healers. beside of them you don't need burst, good dps is good enough, especially if you are hard to kill

 

edit: beside of this, using an if like build there are no classes that are FAR better as ball carrier. maybe, at most slightly better, though this highly depends on the situation and teams. but far better is simply absurd!

 

i would say, after 1.2 assault is the weakest build we have regarding warzones. you need to get in close combat but won't survive a few seconds if they focus you which i allways would do when i see a pyro/assault one.

yes, ion cell changes this dramatically. of course, if your equip and build sucks, then even ion cell won't help you much, neither when 8 enemies are focusing you.

as burst is pretty much the same as it was in 1.2. i honestly dont really notice the difference in the 6 second delay. and your 50% armor increase will help you with a handful of people whose damage is only kinetic. and i honestly dont know where to begin with your comments about burst being overrated. you can have all the sustained dps you want. just don't expect to kill anyone being healed or even put pressure on a decent healer., or hell even win your 1v1 or 1v2 battles that happen all the time in WZs. ion cell is not your saving grace your wont survive a second longer then AS without a healer. and your damage is laughable.

[Fafryd]

Hmmm everyone keeps talking about burst from range.... Which outside of one HiB and one AP every 13 or 15 seconds you don't have.

 

I'll clarify, in that you've linked directly the other points when I didn't mean that. Assault is 10m moving burst damage and significant 1v1 pressure. Group combat is often a series of 1v1s where you take your opportunities for your AEs; watching your surroundings and the objectives.

 

When I said 'and hurt from range', I didn't mean burst. I meant merely you can do some reasonable damage from ranged vis a vis tactics - you get AP and IR adding to your HIB, Full Auto and HS. You can apply the DOT for HIB from range. It's not great but you do have the chance to hurt that guy on top of the walkways in Huttball etc...

 

Having played 100+ warzones in Tactics, the direct pressure it applies is weaker than Assault. You can do similar overall damage (for me Assault pulls higher numbers but that could be playstyle) but a lot of it is PC (and a lot of other times it is failed PC) and recoverable because you are setting up for an AE and not focusing on the most influential enemy. I personally prefer going direct for the healer or the major damage dealer on the other team and keeping them dead.

 

I want to like Tactics but I just find it weak. I find Shield specs like Iron Fist weaker, however.

[bglodt]

....and your damage is laughable.

 

This is just such a stupid statement.... When I play tactics, i go neck and neck statistics wise with really good assault vanguards. I don't know why you think you can't put pressure on a healer as tactics... Because you can.... And many of us do. Just because you can't play the spec doesn't make it sucky. It just means it doesn't match your play style. Personally I suck at Mara... That doesn't mean the AC is weak.

 

 

Stop making ridiculous statements like tactics damage is "laughable"... It makes you look silly. The tree takes skill to play. And it's not a one trick pony gimmick class based in one ability. That's like me saying assault is a super easy class to play faceroll ftw! Three button spam lolfest!!! Lol anyone that plays it is an unskilled noob! There now I'm silly too. Obviously it's not true.... Though its much easier to play... And people who go from it to tactics without giving it a full week or two to get used to the build play style are the main people saying tactics suck.

 

 

Again... BOTH are viable. BOTH can pressure healers. BOTH can do good damage.

[BardaTheHobo]

Ill just pop in here for a sec.. Now this entire thread seems to be about damage so I wont touch on that. I just came in to say that everyone seems to be forgetting about the talent, Frontline Defense. This is probably the best box someone can pick up for pvp. Just ask a healer the difference between a 8 and 6 sec cd interrupt. Edited April 23, 2012 by BardaTheHobo