Immortal Juggernaut Ability Bloat

[Razzberry]

I decided I wanted to try my hand at tanking in SWTOR after 6 years of healing in WoW, so during beta I played around with a Sith Juggernaut. Although I really liked the playstyle and flavour of the class, I found it had an extreme amount of ability bloat, with a lot of "necessary" abilities that all perform very specific functions.

 

Using this guide as a baseline:

http://sithwarrior.com/forums/Thread...-To-The-Galaxy

 

Even ignoring the secondary abilities, an Immortal Juggernaut uses 2 rage generators, 7 rage consumers (Vicious Slash and Sweeping Slash are interchangeable based on single- or multi-target, but both still need to be on the bar) and 4 defensive cooldowns, for a total of 13 core abilities.

 

Including secondary abilities, it comes out to 6 rage builders, 10 rage consumers, 4 defensive cooldowns and 1 offensive cooldown for a total of 21 abilities.

 

21!

 

I think one of the biggest issues is that new abilities never completely override any of the older abilities. Crushing Blow is a great example of something that could either replace Sundering Slash or Vicious Slash if it either built rage with a cooldown (like SuS) or consumed rage without a cooldown (like VS). But as a rage consumer with a cooldown, you still need to have the other two abilities somewhere on your bar for those cases where you need to build rage/sunders or spend rage while CB is on cooldown.

 

Voltaic Slash in the Assassin's Deception tree is a perfect example of this type of behaviour. It costs the same amount of resources as Thrash, but it also does more damage and provides a buff. It is a flat out replacement for the Thrash ability.

 

If the Juggernaut had either a) more abilities that were a straight out improvement over the old one or b) just buffed the older abilities to be usable in more situations, it would go a long way to providing a more enjoyable tanking experience. Of course, this issue is also exacerbated by the fact that SWTOR is currently lacking any type of macro system, which would make it easier to account for those special cases with modifier macros (e.g. 1 for one ability, shift-1 for another, ctrl-1 for another, etc). It's doable just with keyboard rebinds, but very messy and difficult to track the cooldowns when they're spread all over the place.

 

I've switched to an Assassin tank on live, and although I really, really miss Force Charge and Smash, being able to tank with 7 buttons is just so much more manageable. The combat just feels a lot more focused and efficient.

 

I do still plan on leveling up a Juggernaut on live for fun, so I'm really curious to hear from other Juggernauts/Guardians (especially ones with high level experience) on how they've managed to layout the sheer number of keybinds necessary to play the class. It just seems so daunting.

 

Any advice or insight would be greatly appreciated!

 

(I originally posted this in the Sith Warrior general forum, since I didn't notice there were AC ones. This seems like a more appropriate place for the discussion)

[Darthshnooky]

They are apparently looking at Juggernauts/Guardians right now for some changes. I hope this is something that is adjusted. Mostly because it is annoying to get cool new abilities and realize i still need to use my old ones.

 

The cooldowns on backhand, crushing blow, and sundering strike are just not conducive to easy play. Having two rage builders is nice in some ways, but as you get more and more abilities to use, it becomes a hassle. Perhaps they could put a secondary effect on the skill "Shield Specialization" that eliminates the cooldown on sundering. That way, by level 30ish, Immortal players could just focus on sundering.

 

Backhand's cooldown seems way too long to me. And in general, I think a few things just need to be tightened up to streamline a bit.

[Traumahawk]

A lot of us made a point about this during B. You either have people that agree with you, or ones who like to say that it "adds complexity to an already easy game". The latter are missing the point quite honestly--it's a weak argument from players that desperately want ways to stratify the community. I don't blame them actually, given the trend in MMOs to hand out epic rewards like Sunday coupons.

 

To your question, I ended up having to put some abilities on the side bars and ended up removing Ravage from my bar altogether. Despite this, it was still a pain to manage all of the abilities that really had no advantage over the other. I believe it should go one of two ways: either AC abilities replace common class ones OR AC abilities are more suited/better for certain play-styles, so one can choose A or B.

 

Everything that you have said was suggested and mentioned before, not only because of the annoyance of ability "bloat", but because you can't actually enjoy the game when your eyes are staring at cool downs. If you can cut through all the garbage about how an awkward class is somehow a welcomed feature, then I think you will find most players are on the same page. I was rather polite about all this during testing, but now that I am paying for it, I plan on drilling the issues with this class a bit harder.

[Lymain]

I really like the class the way it is because I enjoy focusing on playing my class well. My primary MMO prior to this was EQ2, which uses significantly more abilities than Juggernaut. It's completely unrealistic to expect people to play some classes in that game at an "optimal" level consistently. As such, you can play for years and still have room for improvement, which is what kept me coming back. Gear upgrades feel insignificant compared to the true improvement you see in how you actually play.

 

If they end up reducing the number of abilities significantly, I'll be pretty disappointed, but I have enjoyed some of the other classes in TOR enough to play it for a month or two. Unfortunately, I'll probably lose interest after that unless I discover some nuances I can get into and have fun with.

 

If that happens, then it happens. I realize I don't have very mainstream tastes in classes, and TOR is trying to be a mainstream game. The only thing that bothers me is that there are 6 other simpler classes (plus their mirrors) if that's what you're looking for. I certainly don't ask that every class fit my personal tastes, but it'd be nice if one or two did.

Edited December 18, 2011 by Lymain

[Primalthirst]

If they had a macro system with fall-through logic like Rift does then that would alleviate a lot of the issues.

[Traumahawk]

I really like the class the way it is because I enjoy focusing on playing my class well. My primary MMO prior to this was EQ2, which uses significantly more abilities than Juggernaut. It's completely unrealistic to expect people to play some classes in that game at an "optimal" level consistently. As such, you can play for years and still have room for improvement, which is what kept me coming back. Gear upgrades feel insignificant compared to the true improvement you see in how you actually play.

 

If they end up reducing the number of abilities significantly, I'll be pretty disappointed, but I have enjoyed some of the other classes in TOR enough to play it for a month or two. Unfortunately, I'll probably lose interest after that unless I discover some nuances I can get into and have fun with.

 

If that happens, then it happens. I realize I don't have very mainstream tastes in classes, and TOR is trying to be a mainstream game. The only thing that bothers me is that there are 6 other simpler classes (plus their mirrors) if that's what you're looking for. I certainly don't ask that every class fit my personal tastes, but it'd be nice if one or two did.

 

I want to clarify for anyone reading my earlier post, that I do not want the game to be easy and, in fact, have always chosen the class that requires the most management/analytical play.

 

With that said, and perhaps it's just my own taste, some of the most complex (and enjoyable) classes that I have every played had only a handful of abilities. There lacks variety in the current skill set. It's not about making it easier, but rather about making it make sense. I hope they remove some of the mundane slashes and the hacks and replace them with more throws, leaps and acrobatics. Even a visual overhaul would take away some of the tedium.

 

But no, please don't make it easier, just make it more intuitive.

Edited December 18, 2011 by Traumahawk

[LordExozone]

I concur with the OP. There should be a talent in the immortal tree to remove the cooldown on Sundering Assault imho, so we can use it as a direct improvement/replacement over Assault. That would also buff our top talent ability.

[Omniwing]

I concur with the OP. There should be a talent in the immortal tree to remove the cooldown on Sundering Assault imho, so we can use it as a direct improvement/replacement over Assault. That would also buff our top talent ability.

 

I thought of this myself before I even read this thread, and I'm only level 11. I already have to designate a 'build rage' spam button, now I have to spam two.

Edited December 18, 2011 by Omniwing

[Lymain]

As you get higher level with more skills to improve your rage, the idea is that you very rarely, if ever, use Assault. You can fit two GCDs or one Ravage/Force Choke between your Sundering, and you have Enrage, which is off the GCD. I still keep Assault on my hotbar as a fallback, but you'd definitely be better served to remove Assault from your hotbar than Ravage.

[Razzberry]

I still keep Assault on my hotbar as a fallback

 

Not to take your comments out of context, but this snippet sums up the crux of the issue right here. Due to the way that the abilities fill different niches, you end up with a lot of these buttons that exist purely to fill in edge cases rather than provide any substantial functionality on their own merit. I think it would go a long way to streamlining the gameplay overall if they just removed a lot of these fallback abilities and just covered their niche with some of the more prominent Immortal abilities. I don't think they need to dilute the class to the point of 4-5 buttons, but 12-15 is probably a lot more reasonable than 21 and still provides enough variety to help provide a bit of a skill buffer between players.

[Roxiey]

OP did you ever play EQ or EQ2? I would doubt it as you would be accustomed to using and having even more abilities than you have already described. You seem to be used to the WoW model of class abilities where you have 1 maybe 2 hotbars with abilities on them (Read abilities, not macros, items etc). I'm used to having around 3-5 hotbars for the games I have played and in those games each skill (much like in SWTOR) has a unique ability and time of use.

 

It seems that unlike Blizzard, BIOWARE is wanting their players to have more chances to learn their class and more chances to make mistakes and not hold our hands.

 

I for one want that in a game, I don't want this to be WoW in space. I want this game to have difficulty and depth.

[DReaves]

I also would hate to see this game turn into what WoW became. I enjoy the challenge of learning a new class but as it is right now Juggernaut just seems to be lacking the polish that some of the other classes have. I really enjoy the class but a little stream lining would do the class some justice. I'm not asking for a 5 button tank but I do think that 21 is a little excessive and alot of the abilities almost seem redundant. Now I have only hit level 18 on my Juggernaut but my bars are already feeling a bit claustrophobic and that's with using extra key and mouse binds. Again I don't think we need to be a 5 button tank but just tighten it up a little and I thin the class would benefit from it.

[Lymain]

Not to take your comments out of context, but this snippet sums up the crux of the issue right here. Due to the way that the abilities fill different niches, you end up with a lot of these buttons that exist purely to fill in edge cases rather than provide any substantial functionality on their own merit. I think it would go a long way to streamlining the gameplay overall if they just removed a lot of these fallback abilities and just covered their niche with some of the more prominent Immortal abilities. I don't think they need to dilute the class to the point of 4-5 buttons, but 12-15 is probably a lot more reasonable than 21 and still provides enough variety to help provide a bit of a skill buffer between players.

 

But if they replace Assault with Sundering and remove the cooldown on Sundering, the entire flow of the class changes for the worse (in my opinion). For example, most single target fights would start Sundering -> Sundering -> Sundering instead of Sundering -> Scream -> Smash. My eyes kinda gloss over when I use the same ability back-to-back(-to-back).

 

To be honest, I wouldn't mind as much if they removed some fringe abilities like Call on the Force, maybe Pommel Strike/Savage Kick. I like having those abilities and would prefer to keep them, but at least if they were removed the general flow of the class would remain somewhat intact.

Edited December 18, 2011 by Lymain

[Razzberry]

Sundering is probably an ability that shouldn't be removed (or merged) since it's the only other active rage generator we have. Having two of those (plus Enrage and Force Choke as rage generating cooldowns) isn't too much to handle.

 

A better clean-up would be on the rage consumers. Things like Vicious Slash which are purely rage->damage should probably be replaced entirely by things like Crushing Blow, which provide some type of tanking utility in addition to the damage. Then just leave the rage->damage abilities for Vengeance/Rage specs.

Edited December 18, 2011 by Razzberry

[Lymain]

I guess, but by the time you have Crushing Blow, you're pretty much only using Vicious Slash if you end up with more rage than you know what to do with. The only way they could make Crushing Blow (or any other ability) a true, 100% replacement for Vicious Slash would be to remove the cooldown, and obviously the current ability would have to be completely redesigned if they did that. Edited December 18, 2011 by Lymain

[deserttfoxx]

I agree, i feel the jugernaught in its current state lacks a great deal of complexity, at level 21 i am only using 4 or 5 skills to kill my targets, and 3 of those i just use because id bore my self further just alternating basic attack and vicious slash.

[CinarilAlaron]

I agree, i feel the jugernaught in its current state lacks a great deal of complexity, at level 21 i am only using 4 or 5 skills to kill my targets, and 3 of those i just use because id bore my self further just alternating basic attack and vicious slash.

 

Wait till later.

 

The amount of abilities you have to juggle if you want to survive any TOUGH fights by the time you hit the late twenties to early thirties is.. large.

 

-Headshake.-

 

It's simple in the beginning. But everything I've seen and read and experienced says their midgame is really hard, and that they're overly complex compared to other classes.

 

Honestly, I don't mind the complex part, but don't put under-powered in there alongside it for most of the leveling experience.

[grathom]

Don't start ************ too much about how hard this class is, or soon they will make it stupid easy and even more 13 year old's will give the class a go.

[deserttfoxx]

Wait till later.

 

The amount of abilities you have to juggle if you want to survive any TOUGH fights by the time you hit the late twenties to early thirties is.. large.

 

-Headshake.-

 

It's simple in the beginning. But everything I've seen and read and experienced says their midgame is really hard, and that they're overly complex compared to other classes.

 

Honestly, I don't mind the complex part, but don't put under-powered in there alongside it for most of the leveling experience.

 

Yes yes i know, we get all our skills later.

 

This is bad class design, ive played my operative up to the same level and i have multiple combat options at the same exact level as my juggernaut. What, because i am a tank i should be content with drooling on my keyboard and pressing 2 buttons for the first 30 levels?

 

Im not having trouble, i find the class to be boring in the sense that we dont do much because we dont have much to do.

Edited December 19, 2011 by deserttfoxx

[Sildadar]

I concur with the OP. There should be a talent in the immortal tree to remove the cooldown on Sundering Assault imho, so we can use it as a direct improvement/replacement over Assault. That would also buff our top talent ability.

 

Quoted for emphasis

[Rawrjulian]

I can't say i see how there complicated at all. i do agree there "seems" to be to many abilities but if you really look at what the jug has you can make "simple" rotations the fit the situation. if anything i see them as the most versatile class for tanking. but how about we revisit this when people have done all the end game content and can make a real judgement. Edited December 26, 2011 by Rawrjulian

[Chaosphear]

Who gives a crap about leveling? It's so easy. I've barely been playing adn im level 25 already. I just set up my skills on my hotbar in order of their priority. It's really simple to see what's coming up next or what you need to do. Please don't make this class easy. I like that we have tons of skills. It makes me feel versatile. Also, they are supposed to be a class that is ****** with a lightsaber. You don't see them spamming the same 3 moves over and over again in the movies. I like the way it looks. Every skill has a different animation. I LOVE the way the juggernaut plays.

[Rawrjulian]

Who gives a crap about leveling? It's so easy. I've barely been playing adn im level 25 already. I just set up my skills on my hotbar in order of their priority. It's really simple to see what's coming up next or what you need to do. Please don't make this class easy. I like that we have tons of skills. It makes me feel versatile. Also, they are supposed to be a class that is ****** with a lightsaber. You don't see them spamming the same 3 moves over and over again in the movies. I like the way it looks. Every skill has a different animation. I LOVE the way the juggernaut plays.

 

i would have to agree the animation is great and i would not like to see it made easy.

[VRBW]

Actually for my own part, just allowing us to have 3 rows of ability bars along the bottom would resolve a fair amount of this issue.

 

Oh, and stop pretending that this game is hard, no one's buying it.

[HarvardAce]

If they had a macro system with fall-through logic like Rift does then that would alleviate a lot of the issues.

 

This. There is a clear hierarchy in certain skills that serve similar purposes, but you prefer one over the other unless you can't use that skill (e.g. sundering assault over assault unless SA is on cooldown). RIFT's system where you could "overload" a keybind and it would cast the first spell/ability in the list that was castable at that time is a way to streamline things a bit without reducing the variety of the class or creating balancing issues inherent in changing abilities such as removing the CD from SA.