PVP Math 101, Thanks FireSomething!

[Valhalyn]

Brought to attention by FireSomething, Direct quotes so people can see the exact math and whats actually happening in PVP before they assume OMGDEYNURFDMI!

 

I've been seeing a lot of dubious math considering the changes to expertise in patch 1.2 so I would like to post my take on what the goal of the changes actually are for 1.2.

 

I'm making one assumption on how the damage calculation works: expertise is multaplicative.

 

Thus the formula for deriving how much damage you take is based on the following formula:

 

(AttackDmg)*(1+AttackExp)*(1-DefExp)*(1-DmgReduction) = DmgRecieved

 

And for the sake of argument I will be ignoring armor/resistance because they are unaffected by expertise. So that leaves the formula as:

 

(AttackDmg)*(1+AttackExp)*(1-DefExp) = AdjustedDmgRecieved

 

So pre-1.2 the battlemaster gear gave ~11% to all three categories. So pluging this into the formula as % values we find that expertise was behaving this way for the values of expertise that were available.

 

(100)*(1.11)*(1-0.11) = 98.79%

 

If they had just relaxed the dmr curve for expertise and allowed the pvp bonuses to grow evenly ending up with new battlemaster gear giving 22% to all three. It would lead to damage being reduced across the board in fights between similarly geared players.

 

(100)*(1.22)*(1-0.22) = 95.16%

 

Now I assume everyone is now thinking, "so what does it matter if everyone's damage is reduced?"

 

the problem comes from the fact that healers would also be putting out 22% more healing. Healing is unchecked by pvp bonuses.

 

With the new values of the pvp buff what is indeed happening is that the damage is being brought closer inline to what people thought was happening with expertise pre-1.2. Dulfy has an excellent chart in this article detailing the gearing changes. http://dulfy.net/2012/03/22/pvp-gearing-in-1-2/

 

With the new values of expertise on BM gear (22% dmg, 18% reduction) the cancelling is indeed happening like it was before 1.2.

 

(100)*(1+0.22)*(1-0.18) = 100.04%

 

For WH gear the same is true.

 

(100)*(1+0.24)*(1-0.195) = 99.82%

 

So as these two curves continue the stats do indeed cancel each other when two characters with equal amounts of expertise are fighting each other 1v1.

 

Since this is getting kind of long I'll break this into a few posts.

 

Summary: The new damage curves actually lead to 2 characters at equal levels of expertise doing exactly 100% of their pre-buffed damage to each other as the expertise buff cancel with the new dmr curves.

 

Next I'll take a look at what happens when characters of different gear levels meet each other 1v1.

 

 

This post is going to be short and focus on the input/output differential for players of unequal gear levels fighting 1v1. Again I'll be using Dulfy's graph that I linked in my last post for approximate values.

 

This will just be a list of the % dmg received in the case of [Player 1] ->(attacks) [Player 2] and using the buff values as follows:

Dmg Reduc

WH: 24% 19.5%

BM: 22% 18%

Rec: 18% 15.5%

 

WH -> BM: 101.68%

BM -> WH: 98.21%

Diff: +- 3.47%

 

WH -> Rec: 104.78%

Rec -> WH: 94.99%

Diff: +- 9.79%

 

BM -> Rec: 103.09%

Rec -> BM: 96.76%

Diff: +- 6.33%

 

Then in the case of fighting a fully pve geared player the differentials are as follows:

WH -> PVE: 43.5%

BM -> PVE: 40%

Rec -> PVE: 33.5%

 

So in the case that you are wearing a full set of pvp gear that is obtainable in 1.2 you will never be at more than a 10% disadvantage expertise buff-wise, but it makes PvE gear completely non-viable for PvP which was BioWare's stated goal. This is not much of an entrance barrier to a new 50 if they plan ahead and buy gear pieces as they level to use when they hit 50.

 

 

Now the reason they reduced healing or rather did not increase it by much is because healing in pvp is unchecked by anything that a character can do except for stat inflation. Thus the PvP healing curve needed to be reduced to reflect what BioWare felt the increase in damage output sans expertise buff would be. This allows the game to have a PvP gearing dependency that creates a large zero-sum arms race.

 

The nerfs that they gave to Merc/Comm and Sorc/Sage seem to be intended to bring them more in line with where Ops/Scound were pre-patch. From my experience in PvP fighting a BH/Comm that was in full BM gear require 2-3 people to kill depending on the skill of the dps and the timing of interrupts. Good sorcs/sages could easily achieve this as well. Ops/Scound on the other hand could be killed with 1-2 good dps interrupting/stunning intelligently. This is without the assistance of a tank or other dps.

 

With a tank Merc/Comm were able to tank 4-5 dps without dying. (Maybe only 3-4 well geared/skilled players). That is over half of a WZ team.

 

But by nerfing the resource management of Merc/Sorc it brings them more in line for PvP, and by not inflating pvp healing increases to offset anything other than stat inflation they make sure they don't get to a point where healers are nearly immortal again.

 

 

But with the way expertise is working now is not making the fights shorter. Between 2 evenly geared players they will take exactly the same amount of time as they did pre-patch as long as the increases to endurance on the PvP gear matches the stat inflation on the other gear.

 

A lot of people that are perceiving the fights taking a shorter amount of time are most likely having trouble with a spec that was changed in the patch or they are trying to PvP in PvE gear which is not something that BioWare wants to encourage.

 

If you mainly PvE it should be easy to pick up enough PvP gear through the recruit vendor to be competitive. What it stops is people that mainly PvE coming into PvP and rolling people that primarily PvP because the gear is the same or better. It offers two different progression paths with a low barrier to entry to each but a time investment goal to the player in each path. This is the fundamental way that MMO games work. They give you a progression path usually gear wise that you work through with a combination of skill and time investment where skill usually reduces the time investment required.

 

 

Thanks FireSomething, now hopefully some of you will read this and understand what's actually happening instead of being Sheeple. Knowledge is Power.

[Valhalyn]

This needs to stay on the front until enough people have read and understand what's actually happening!

[Dartagon]

So then my gear is bugged and the expertise wasn't working yesterday.

 

Today it seems fine and the "time" needed to kill me is the same.

 

Yesterday the "time" needed to kill me was drastically increased. Full BM except for relics, which are champion.

 

Makes sense of why yesterday I was melting and this morning everything seemed normal.

 

Its really not the "healing" that is the problem, its the instant melting not able to get any worthwhile heals off that is the problem.

[Caeliux]

Someone sticky this for the love of god, that way baddies can learn something and people can stop crying!!!

[Valhalyn]

Please feel free to request a sticky, or just keep it bumped so others can read it.

 

 

All credit and respect goto FireSomething, just saying he pointed this out in another thread, and I felt it needed to be consolidated so others could read and understand.

[Dartagon]

Someone sticky this for the love of god, that way baddies can learn something and people can stop crying!!!

 

I think what most people are experiencing is some kind of bug w/ the old pre 1.2 gear not being buffed or not applying its actual mitigation.

 

I don't think its a a L2 play or baddies unite kind of post. I heal like 50 wz a day pre 1.2 and I could instantly tell that I was being burned down in 1 stun, using a CD.

 

The math above wouldn't account for that. Which is the exact opposite of what was happening... I guarentee if its anything like i experienced this AM. All these threads will die off and healers will be the norm in groups again.

 

Its not really that our heals are low or weak. We just lost all our mitigation from expertise from some weird glitch...I swear.

 

On patch day, wearing all my BM gear, I said this exact statement: "It feels as though im wearing all my pve gear"...kind of like when I first started PvP'ing.

 

This morning it was magically fixed.

Edited April 13, 2012 by Dartagon

[JediDuckling]

Brought to attention by FireSomething, Direct quotes so people can see the exact math and whats actually happening in PVP before they assume OMGDEYNURFDMI!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks FireSomething, now hopefully some of you will read this and understand what's actually happening instead of being Sheeple. Knowledge is Power.

 

the explination about the healing was totaly wrong. they nerfed healing because baddies was crying on the forums because they couldnt kill a squishy healer with their OP broken class lol

[HHGofAntioch]

Thanks for cross posting!

[Valhalyn]

Yes, because you say its wrong its wrong...Go away now...I've seen your troll posts and dont care for your opinion, read and learn or sit and cry.

[Caeliux]

I think what most people are experiencing is some kind of bug w/ the old pre 1.2 gear not being buffed or not applying its actual mitigation.

 

I don't think its a a L2 play or baddies unite kind of post. I heal like 50 wz a day pre 1.2 and I could instantly tell that I was being burned down in 1 stun, using a CD.

 

The math above wouldn't account for that. Which is the exact opposite of what was happening... I guarentee if its anything like i experienced this AM. All these threads will die off and healers will be the norm in groups again.

 

Its not really that our heals are low or weak. We just lost all our mitigation from expertise from some weird glitch...I swear.

 

On patch day, wearing all my BM gear, I said this exact statement: "It feels as though im wearing all my pve gear"...kind of like when I first started PvP'ing.

 

This morning it was magically fixed.

 

Think your right about it being a patch bug, and the amount of crying over it and people making false accusations is downright puke lol.

[Dartagon]

Yes, because you say its wrong its wrong...Go away now...I've seen your troll posts and dont care for your opinion, read and learn or sit and cry.

 

Has anyone tested the math yesterday to determine if there was any issues with the expertise not granting its actual posted mitigation?

 

I would be curious to know, since this is how "it felt" in terms of game play.

Edited April 13, 2012 by Dartagon

[Khoraji]

love it. thanks for this.

 

STICKY!

[Valhalyn]

Sorry Dart that was at Duckling not you.

[Moveus]

great post. thanks for compiling.

 

why did this have to come from a community member? why didn't BioWare just make a sticky post?

Edited April 13, 2012 by Moveus

[getdownsb]

Sticky please.

[Reveillere]

This is true yes, but something was wrong with damage and damage reduction yesterday, it might not be apparent, a bug or so

[Valhalyn]

When have you ever seen a Developer release exact numbers and math? It's always been on Elitist Jerks for WoW. Where all the Theorycrafters hang out. I'm glad it came from a community member, right now we just need to make sure people read and understand. And quell some of this crying, going into a WZ with a negative mindset will only lead to negative results.

[Caeliux]

great post. thanks for compiling.

 

why did this have to come from a community member? why didn't BioWare just make a sticky post?

 

I would rather them worry about the game more than catering to a bunch of people that nerdrage on these forums all the time lol.

Edited April 13, 2012 by Caeliux

[Bazzoong]

Oh, nice post, good you collected it in one place.

 

/Sticky

 

People should read this, cause math is hard even if that was not real math but only some calculations.

[iceperson]

Here's all the math you need

 

n+1 dps > n+1 healer

 

need 1 more for your team? DPS will always be the best choice.

[Dartagon]

I would rather them worry about the game more than catering to a bunch of people than nerdrage on these forums all the time lol.

 

I think people realized that there was a glaring bug in the equation (myself included). I really don't have a problem with nerf but, there was a real feel of something "wrong" with the game yesterday. If you couldn't "feel" something was out of place. Then I dunno what to say.

 

Even the guy I play with most times, juggernaut was laughing at how fast he burns and gets burned.

 

When you play a game long enough you get a feel with how everything runs.

[Khoraji]

Here's all the math you need

 

n+1 dps > n+1 healer

 

need 1 more for your team? DPS will always be the best choice.

 

^ bad

[Dosvidaniya]

When have you ever seen a Developer release exact numbers and math? It's always been on Elitist Jerks for WoW. Where all the Theorycrafters hang out. I'm glad it came from a community member, right now we just need to make sure people read and understand. And quell some of this crying, going into a WZ with a negative mindset will only lead to negative results.

 

And where do the theorycrafters get the data?

 

 

I did theorycrafting in WoW; got in it rather deeply too. I can tell you that when a large number of sane people say something feels off, something usually is off. I saw Blizz make tiny mistakes that made for some crazy gltiches (like giving druids an extra 10% armor due to talent changes). I saw glitches as a DK where the armor modifier would reset and unless you changed presences, you'd get hit like a truck.

 

Given the number of people that said "umm, why is everyone melting?" and combine it with the fact that gleeful friends were decimating people in full BM, I'd actually be willing to give rather good odds that there was a glitch. I wouldn't be surprised if there is a fix in this patch. If not, I fully intend on getting naked, logging, then putting my gear back on when I log back in. Glitches happen often when large patches hit. While the math is solid, I still think there is an issue.

 

It's good to know that it is supposed to be balanced. But I wouldn't dismiss the vast majority of play experience when the numbers on the character sheet don't match what is happening in game.

Edited April 13, 2012 by Dosvidaniya

[Valhalyn]

Indeed there may have been a bug yesterday, and today when the servers come back it may be gone. You said you clearly felt better this morning about it. This post/compilation is to keep the "Sky is falling" people in line. So they can come here, figure out whats actually happening and quit the complaining because they have no knowledge of the system.

[Moveus]

I would rather them worry about the game more than catering to a bunch of people that nerdrage on these forums all the time lol.

 

The developers already have all the math done. They are the ones who calculated it and implemented the change in the first place. It would take them maybe 15 min to write a post stating exactly the same thing as this post, but b/c it was coming from devs, it would reach far more of the player community.

 

If knowledge and transparency are good for a community-based game (I am assuming it is), they this seems like a strictly good thing.

 

Is that not worth 15 min of 1 employee's time? It wouldn't even have to be a dev. Get an intern. Pay him $10 an hour. It would cost you $5 to make this post and spare thousands of ppl a nerdrage headache.