Mar/Sents

[Lashlarue]

To sum up the whining: People need to quit playing their class as if it's pre-1.2.

[Visue]

I take it anyone complaining out sentinels and marauders have never played them before. 10k damage on master strike? Please. Automatic win in 1v3? Don't think so.

 

A lot of people, especially the ranged players who are sub-par and like to spam tracer missile and lightning, are freaking out because OMG I can't dominate this class like I used to! This class used to be notoriously difficult to play and there were very few true good players of this class. The average player was at a pretty severe disadvantage before this patch. What they've done with is patch is make it a easier to be good. So instead of a majority of sentinels and marauders just being a blip on the radar, you're actually noticing them because them because they are being challenged. And of course we all know that if another class challenges you, it's OP, right?

 

And yes, the few that were good before are better now. Just like they would be with any class they play, because they are good players.

 

You've assumed that those who disagree are inherently bad players, and as a result you've closed your mind to opposing points of view.

[Moosestick]

Speaking as a Jugg and Guardian lvl 50 player here (my other 50 doesnt form a basis for comparison)- yes marauder/sent is OP when we compare it to the other AC from its base class.

 

• Far higher DPS- which is correct for a pure DPS AC

Until 1.2, jugs outdamaged mara rage by far, and kept close to annihilation. With patch, rage specs are equal, and nothing was done to annihilation.

On demand survivability that is far and away better than anything the other AC has- this is not acceptable considering the other AC is more balanced towards tanking

Mara has two extra cds to help with survivability since without them, the mara gets steamrolled.
Jug has more baseline survivability, different useful cooldowns, more utility, guard, more mobility, more/better cc, more anti-cc.
 

Only marginally less baseline survivability

/quote]

Dps jugs? Decent survivability increase while keeping a lot of the utility. Tank jugs, amazing survivability, amazing utility, less damage.

 

The things the class can do are only possible due to the cooldowns and its only those cooldowns that put the class over the top. The DPS they kick out is exactly where it should be, they just shouldnt be able to survive as well or as long as they do while putting out that damage.

 

If you can come back with a serious counter to the above? Feel free.

Easy. As a jug you get survivability outside of two cooldowns and massive utility. Without damage reducing cooldowns, maras would be easy pickings.

Compare maras to the only other pure dps class: snipers.

they do more dps at range, and trade a couple damage reducing cds for cc.

[Reldan]

The things the class can do are only possible due to the cooldowns and its only those cooldowns that put the class over the top. The DPS they kick out is exactly where it should be, they just shouldnt be able to survive as well or as long as they do while putting out that damage.

 

If you can come back with a serious counter to the above? Feel free.

 

That used to be true of Concealment Ops as well, except that after you bagged your kill you died yourself unless you managed to catch someone alone and the kill let you get back out of combat to restealth. This was deemed so OP that it's been nerfed 5 times in a row.

 

The difference here you can kill someone in the middle of a team fight and keep on trucking.

[Moosestick]

That used to be true of Concealment Ops as well, except that after you bagged your kill you died yourself unless you managed to catch someone alone and the kill let you get back out of combat to restealth. This was deemed so OP that it's been nerfed 5 times in a row.

 

The difference here you can kill someone in the middle of a team fight and keep on trucking.

 

Hitting for 8-10k back to back was deemed op and adjusted. Conceal ops can still out out 5ks back to back. Which is fine since when their cds are down, they get trucked after killing their target. Just like maras.

Edited April 14, 2012 by Moosestick

[AKfourtyseven]

Until 1.2, jugs outdamaged mara rage by far, and kept close to annihilation. With patch, rage specs are equal, and nothing was done to annihilation.

 

Mara has two extra cds to help with survivability since without them, the mara gets steamrolled.

Jug has more baseline survivability, different useful cooldowns, more utility, guard, more mobility, more/better cc, more anti-cc.

 

 

[*]Only marginally less baseline survivability

/quote]

Dps jugs? Decent survivability increase while keeping a lot of the utility. Tank jugs, amazing survivability, amazing utility, less damage.

 

 

Easy. As a jug you get survivability outside of two cooldowns and massive utility. Without damage reducing cooldowns, maras would be easy pickings.

Compare maras to the only other pure dps class: snipers.

they do more dps at range, and trade a couple damage reducing cds for cc.

 

Lets be serious here- No, Juggs were not out damaging marauders in any way that mattered before. Those big numbers from rage AOE's meant absolutely nothing since thats not what gets the job done, its focused DPS and in that regard a marauder is always top. Seriously, i think you know better than this already.

 

Now, your point about "amazing survivability" regarding tank Juggs. Do you have one? a 31pt tank spec Jugg? I do. I can tell you from first hand experience that if focused the time to kill me and that of a marauder, both with all our cooldowns does not reflect your claim. Im speaking from direct play experience here, not conjecture. There is a reason very few people play 31pt tank spec in PvP, its because the survivability advantage you are meant to have is not there compared to the drop in damage. I do because its my style, but trust me, both classes with all cooldowns ready? No, the Jugg is not "amazing" and the marauder "ok". Now, considering the speed of the cooldowns on a marauder compared to the Juggs most useful "godmode"? Again, no comparison for how often or effectively each can enter their peak performance.

 

So, in the final analysis, if the survivability of a tank Jugg is marginal to a Marauder, then there must be one of two things happening...

 

If you doubt what im saying, get a guildie who is full tank spec, focus them with 2 or 3 people. Then focus a marauder- both with all cd's up and see who dies fastest.

 

Edit: if i compare marauder to sniper? Marauder wins again. Again, survivability. Sniper doesnt come close.

Edited April 14, 2012 by AKfourtyseven

[ProfessorWalsh]

You've assumed that those who disagree are inherently bad players, and as a result you've closed your mind to opposing points of view.

 

No he isn't.

 

He is stating that the Sentinel and Marauder classes were stupidly hard to play pre 1.2 and thus they appeared to suck and were easily dealt with as a non-threat save for the rare few who were really good. Post 1.2 the class is easier so those who were "good" but the difficulty curve was just a little too high are now "good" and you are noticing that Sentinels are a threat now.

 

You also have closed your mind to opposing points of view.

 

Have you ever considered that the problem isn't with the Sentinel but the problem is that due to the high difficulty curve of the class you never faced really "good" ones before and thus never had to learn how to deal with them?

[Moosestick]

Lets be serious here- No, Juggs were not out damaging marauders in any way that mattered before. Those big numbers from rage AOE's meant absolutely nothing since thats not what gets the job done, its focused DPS and in that regard a marauder is always top. Seriously, i think you know better than this already.

 

Now, your point about "amazing survivability" regarding tank Juggs. Do you have one? a 31pt tank spec Jugg? I do. I can tell you from first hand experience that if focused the time to kill me and that of a marauder, both with all our cooldowns does not reflect your claim. Im speaking from direct play experience here, not conjecture. There is a reason very few people play 31pt tank spec in PvP, its because the survivability advantage you are meant to have is not there compared to the drop in damage. I do because its my style, but trust me, both classes with all cooldowns ready? No, the Jugg is not "amazing" and the marauder "ok". Now, considering the speed of the cooldowns on a marauder compared to the Juggs most useful "godmode"? Again, no comparison for how often or effectively each can enter their peak performance.

 

So, in the final analysis, if the survivability of a tank Jugg is marginal to a Marauder, then there must be one of two things happening...

 

If you doubt what im saying, get a guildie who is full tank spec, focus them with 2 or 3 people. Then focus a marauder- both with all cd's up and see who dies fastest.

 

Edit: if i compare marauder to sniper? Marauder wins again. Again, survivability. Sniper doesnt come close.

 

Pr-patch, jug rage did ~30% more than mara. That's why you see jug vids of 6-12k smashes, depending on patch, and no mara smash videos. You also underestimate the impact of aoe damage vs healers.

 

Long story short, you are doing it wrong. Im guessing unmodded armor, or dps armor. And yes, I have a jug

 

 

Sniper vs marauder=dead mara unless the sniper is stupid.

 

Grass is always greener on the other side, especially when you don't understand your side, let alone the other.

[ProfessorWalsh]

If you doubt what im saying, get a guildie who is full tank spec, focus them with 2 or 3 people. Then focus a marauder- both with all cd's up and see who dies fastest.

 

Edit: if i compare marauder to sniper? Marauder wins again. Again, survivability. Sniper doesnt come close.

 

No.

 

Do you know how much longer the Sentinel will last while focused? Well if you are counting in Awe and Guarded by the Force maybe 5 to 10 more seconds.

 

How about this:

 

Focus the Sentinel and the Guardian, then when they reach 50% health, stun them, then Focus them with 2-3 people.

 

Bet you the Sentinel dies first.

[Moosestick]

No.

 

Do you know how much longer the Sentinel will last while focused? Well if you are counting in Awe and Guarded by the Force maybe 5 to 10 more seconds.

 

How about this:

 

Focus the Sentinel and the Guardian, then when they reach 50% health, stun them, then Focus them with 2-3 people.

 

Bet you the Sentinel dies first.

 

People don't want to counter anything, just faceroll.

[andysdead]

One shot? Really?

 

Bad troll.

[ProfessorWalsh]

People don't want to counter anything, just faceroll.

 

People aren't thinking about this logically and are ignoring the fact that there are ways to stop a Sentinel. I play a Sentinel and I have since Beta and I can tell you that they can die. I died to a Sage in PVP today (same faction Warzone of Voidstar) because he knew how to shut me down. He didn't let me get on him, he pushed me back before I could snare him, he snared me, he walked backward he backed up toward his own defense line and made it suicide for me to follow.

 

This isn't the only way to stop a Sentinel but in the end I had to abandon the attack. He knew how to counter me and he reacted wisely. That is all you have to do.

 

If you try to stand there and DPS the Sentinel down you are going to die and you deserve it too.

[Leafmebe]

The main reason they are op is because they are hitting harder than everyone else coupled with the fact they are also the only ones that can survive the 3 shot gib fest that 1.2 pvp has turned into.

 

Pretty much agree with the above - come on Bio lets have some balance with PVP in our game, WOW pretty much went the same way in PVP and ended up with a nuclear arms race because they had to continue to buff other classes to keep up. CUSTOMERS pay to play the game because they enjoy it, (Not to be constantly CC - this is a general observation and not class specific) and burst down by a mellee class that can out last a tank ,you have to feel you have a chance of wining against all classes even if you dont.

[BDutch]

RE: Marauders vs Juggs

Marauders should always deal more damage than Juggs.

Juggs should always have more survivability than Marauders.

We all know this is how it should be.

 

1.2 fixed the rage AoE Jugg superiority.

 

Now, you know what comes next. We all know what comes next.

[Ravashakk]

I take it anyone complaining out sentinels and marauders have never played them before. 10k damage on master strike? Please. Automatic win in 1v3? Don't think so.

 

A lot of people, especially the ranged players who are sub-par and like to spam tracer missile and lightning, are freaking out because OMG I can't dominate this class like I used to! This class used to be notoriously difficult to play and there were very few true good players of this class. The average player was at a pretty severe disadvantage before this patch. What they've done with is patch is make it a easier to be good. So instead of a majority of sentinels and marauders just being a blip on the radar, you're actually noticing them because them because they are being challenged. And of course we all know that if another class challenges you, it's OP, right?

 

And yes, the few that were good before are better now. Just like they would be with any class they play, because they are good players.

 

I agree with you that I thought playing a marauder required much more effort than any other class. That does not mean you give huge dmg buffs to make the rest of the ppl still play like garbage, but at least they are hitting hard enough to kill the things they hit for 2-3 seconds. They should have combined abilities to bring more utility and not a buff to dmg, because I felt it was our need to have so many abilities keybound is the reason we were difficult to play.

 

The other thing is, if they want to buff dmg for pve, make abilities do varying things on non pvp targets and pvp targets like they do for a lot of their abilities.

 

The best thing though would be to combine abilities so that having a naga mouse isn't a requirement to play the class to it's fullest (which is prob why so many subpar marauders were running around pre patch and why I dominated)

[JediGerad]

As a Balance spec Shadow, (and I've already posted in here once) I am finding more and more today that I am having less problems with Marauders/Sentinels than I was yesterday.

 

I am definitely not the best pvper, but I can consistently take down Mar/Sents in 1v1 situations, and even took down a Sniper and Marauder today in a 2v1.

 

They aren't broken, nothing is wrong with them. I'm not gonna say what you should do, because it's been beaten to death and I doubt most of the people complaining on the forums are going to put any effort into learning how to pvp.

[Acanti]

Sentinel and Marauder classes were stupidly hard to play pre 1.2

 

People really need to stop spewing this garbage around. It was hardER than most classes, in itself the class was never "stupidly hard" to play.

[carbocat]

I bet that all that complains still have 600-700 expertise, try get 1100-1200, and you can wreck those poor marauders back

[ProfessorWalsh]

As a Balance spec Shadow, (and I've already posted in here once) I am finding more and more today that I am having less problems with Marauders/Sentinels than I was yesterday.

 

I am definitely not the best pvper, but I can consistently take down Mar/Sents in 1v1 situations, and even took down a Sniper and Marauder today in a 2v1.

 

They aren't broken, nothing is wrong with them. I'm not gonna say what you should do, because it's been beaten to death and I doubt most of the people complaining on the forums are going to put any effort into learning how to pvp.

 

This in spades...

 

As we have been saying in this thread. Sentinels were a bit broken before and too hard for the average player. Thus when people saw them they laughed them off because they simply weren't a threat. (There were some who could make the class sing but they were few and far between.)

 

Now that this hit and made the class easier by a bit more players could make the class sing. Suddenly the old ways to deal with them didn't work and people freaked out. Those that freaked out started to panic and ran to the forums to complain because people don't like being taken out of their comfort zone.

 

Then we had a bunch of Sorcerer/Sage and Bounty Hunter/Trooper players who felt that they were unfairly nerfed in 1.2 who saw these threads. They were hurting and, like many people when they get hurt, they started lashing out. They lashed out at the Sentinels and Marauders thus feeding this over exaggerated nest of falsehoods in the mindset of, "If I can get them nerfed then everyone will have been nerfed and thus the status quo will be restored and all will be right in the world."

 

Then this thread came to the final conclusion.

 

People figured out how to beat Sentinels. They realized that the sky had not fallen and that Dogs and Cats were in fact not living together. They went back to the game and back to playing and in the end all was right in the world.

[islander]

So I am full BM and yesterday with the release of 1.2 I get 1 shot now with master strike/ravage abilities. Mar/Sents were fine before the buffs. Now they are way better than any other class. They have more single target dps and with their defensive cd's they have more durability than any other class.

 

not if you keep them at range/rooted/stunned. I'm worthless if I can't get to you. Also, have you seen how "OP" a marauder is against two snipers? Yeah...

 

pretty simple really. only one escape and it's on a 2 min CD. Resolve is garbage, you can stun, blind, root, knock me back all day.

 

Note: My commentary is based on 10-49 competition, I'm not 50 yet.

[islander]

If you think thats bad check out the Juggs/Guards.... I am a Mara and I run from them...

 

This. I have no idea why Juggs are whining. about anything. Plenty good in the right hands imho.

[TalkingDinosaur]

Not even close. I'm in full BM, and with relic/adrenal popped it hits for at most 6k on a light armor target, OVER 3 SECONDS, with a 30 second cooldown, while I'm stuck standing still and you can move, stun me, knock me back, etc. Before the buff, the damage was too low to merit using the ability in any Annihilation/Watchman rotation. Now it is better than 2x vicious slash.

You're doing it wrong.

Edited April 15, 2012 by TalkingDinosaur

[TalkingDinosaur]

This. I have no idea why Juggs are whining. about anything. Plenty good in the right hands imho.

Yeah me being a Jugg and a Guardian, people actually being fearful of you feels good. But then a marauder came back with 2 of his marauders friends and I was like: D:

[Havocx]

If you can't take two steps away, or use a knockback, id suggest getting more than 4k health if ravage is 3 shotting you

 

^Doesnt know what he's talking about.

 

The range on ravage is far more than "two steps away" after it starts channeling. If you move immediately when they start channeling, it's about 50/50 whether you take the last hit. The ONLY sure way to avoid it is to have some kind of movement boost. If they snare you before channeling, and they should, you will take all hits every time. This is all assuming you dont have a stun up, or they are full resolve.

 

Of course a smart marauder is going to wait until someone else stuns you before they ravage. Or when you're preoccupied fighting someone else. Have fun with those.

Edited April 15, 2012 by Havocx

[JediGerad]

^Doesnt know what he's talking about.

 

The range on ravage is far more than "two steps away" after it starts channeling. If you move immediately when they start channeling, it's about 50/50 whether you take the last hit. The ONLY sure way to avoid it is to have some kind of movement boost. If they snare you before channeling, and they should, you will take all hits every time. This is all assuming you dont have a stun up, or they are full resolve.

 

Of course a smart marauder is going to wait until someone else stuns you before they ravage. Or when you're preoccupied fighting someone else. Have fun with those.

 

So essentially it's situational? As in you might be the unlucky one who gets reamed by this ability? That sounds a lot like the Operative/Smuggler defense when everybody was QQing about them...

 

Out of sheer curiousity, does anybody want to start up a pool with me for who is going to be the focus for OP rants next week?