The penalties for losing are TOO severe

[Kismetjones]

I think the underlying problem with PVP right now is the population imbalance, and low population problems, on the servers.

 

On our server for example, there's approximately a 3:1 ratio of Imps to Republic. Before 11am on our server it can take up to 2 hours to get a war zone queue pop. And after 10 PM it starts to slow to 30 minutes and longer until eventually we get no pops. However, during those times, the Imperial players are still getting Imp v Imp Huttball matches. So they've been able to considerably surpass the gear level of most of the Repbulic players.

 

So now we're in a situation where the Imperials are better geared and there's more of them, and they've been playing together more often so there's more cohesivness. Can you say faceroll?

 

Last night a friend and I played for a combined total of 5 hours, nearly straight, in pvp. We won 2 matches. Even though we were queuing seperately, most of the time we ended up in the same warzones with the same people who couldn't beat the Imp team from the match before, much less the team we were up against for that round.

 

Losing all the time is not fun. No matter what the reason, people do tend to eventually stop playing or stop pvping, if there's no way to balance out the game.

 

For my part, I've been leveling an Imp so that I can pvp and win. One of the really nice things about our server is that the players on the Imps and Republic side have been able to be friendly with each other. In fact, I've seen a lot of my republic friends do the same. Eventually on our server I could see it getting to the point where the only pvp is Imp v Imp huttball with the occassional Imp v Republic where the Imps faceroll.

 

I hear they're adding more same faction war zone scenerios too -- but at least on our server, I'm not sure that would help. We rarely get rep vs rep huttballs because there's not 16 people in queue. Maybe it would change it enough that we'll have more pvpers. It's one of those only time will tell scenerios.

 

If they fixed the populations and the imbalances, I do think the rest would natuarlly work itself out in time -- assuming they fix it before the problem becomes worse than it is.

Edited April 13, 2012 by Kismetjones

[Varicite]

I think you're adorable too. You preach about whiners, etc. You haven't really read or understood anything I've said... at all. Nor tried too, which is ok hehe. I'm more happy to provide your daily entertainment. You've certainly entertained me. 8-)

 

You should maybe.... read a few of the other threads instead of refreshing this one. There more people unhappy than happy..... but I digress (look that one up if you need to)

 

I think I'll quit while you think you're ahead. Peace.

 

When have I preached about "whiners"?

 

I can wait.

 

I don't think you have any idea who you're replying to.

 

I've said there are plenty of valid concerns that are combining to make a terrible situation. I DON'T think that this is the big issue making people unhappy.

 

Getting half the rewards for losing is fine, imo. Not having a real shot at victory from the start because of uneven teams is not. Rewards not matching the raised prices of consumables is not. Matches not ending when handicapped is not. Non-existence of RWZ comms making everything 3x as expensive as intended is not.

 

Understand where I'm coming from now?

Edited April 13, 2012 by Varicite

[Astarica]

Population advantage is not an advantage in WZ. If Reps have say 100 BM characters, Empire might have 1000 BM characters but also 1000 true newbs, 500 Reps who rerolled, and 750 alts. This greatly dilutes the talent pool, especially consider the Reps who rerolled are likely the worst players on their side. In most of my WZ I notice the average Empire team have a significant gear deficit. Sure that's not a problem if you always roll around in 4 BM premades but that still doesn't change the overall thing. There are relatively way more non-BMs than BMs on the Empire side compared to Republic side, so the side with less people is likely to see a weaker geared competition overall. I sure wish I run into Reps with 13K HP that I see all the time on my side.

[ryanparker]

I don't think that population balance is even possible. What do you do? Tell people they can't play an imperial until the republic side is more in line? It is a question of rations. If one side constantly wins and is getting the War Coms and thus the gear, and the otherside is gaining NOTHING, then the lopsidedness will increase exponentially, and perpetually. Give rewards to the losing teams, but cap them if you need to. Not getting anything for playing for 5-10 mins at a time, just adds insult to injury. Also, you made sages into meat sacks. They get cooked in their Occupy Wallstreet robes in about three seconds flat, even with BM gear on...there is a problem...someone screwed up. Fix it please before too many people quit.

[Tchotchke]

When have I preached about "whiners"?

 

I can wait.

 

I don't think you have any idea who you're replying to.

 

I've said there are plenty of valid concerns that are combining to make a terrible situation. I DON'T think that this is the big issue making people unhappy.

 

Getting half the rewards for losing is fine, imo. Not having a real shot at victory from the start because of uneven teams is not. Rewards not matching the raised prices of consumables is not. Matches not ending when handicapped is not. Non-existence of RWZ comms making everything 3x as expensive as intended is not.

 

Understand where I'm coming from now?

 

Yeah I agree with these points, must have mixed up somewhere. I think you should re-read what I wrote earlier in this thread.

 

Getting half the reward for losing would be great... I would love it... but that isn't what is happening. When that does happen... or even when the reward for losing is anything better than ZERO CREDITS, ZERO VALOR, and ZERO COMMENDATIONS.... I might be back.

[Kismetjones]

I don't think that population balance is even possible. What do you do? Tell people they can't play an imperial until the republic side is more in line? It is a question of rations. If one side constantly wins and is getting the War Coms and thus the gear, and the otherside is gaining NOTHING, then the lopsidedness will increase exponentially, and perpetually. Give rewards to the losing teams, but cap them if you need to. Not getting anything for playing for 5-10 mins at a time, just adds insult to injury. Also, you made sages into meat sacks. They get cooked in their Occupy Wallstreet robes in about three seconds flat, even with BM gear on...there is a problem...someone screwed up. Fix it please before too many people quit.

 

Yes, I think BW should prevent people from rolling Imps *cough* because that's a well reasoned, logical solution

 

I think they should implement cross server queues. That would allow factions on servers like mine with low populations the opportunity to earn our valor and coms the way we want to -- in a fair fight.

[Varicite]

Yes, I think BW should prevent people from rolling Imps *cough* because that's a well reasoned, logical solution

 

I think they should implement cross server queues. That would allow factions on servers like mine with low populations the opportunity to earn our valor and coms the way we want to -- in a fair fight.

 

This was on the table at some point. I wonder why they decided to axe it.

[Aelannor]

Yeah I agree with these points, must have mixed up somewhere. I think you should re-read what I wrote earlier in this thread.

 

Getting half the reward for losing would be great... I would love it... but that isn't what is happening. When that does happen... or even when the reward for losing is anything better than ZERO CREDITS, ZERO VALOR, and ZERO COMMENDATIONS.... I might be back.

 

 

Actually, no, half rewards for losing is not fine. The ideal system would be that gear has no role to play in PvP whatsoever, but if the game has to be gear based, then both winners and losers need to receive the same rewards to promote skill-based play.

[Scinald]

What you don't get though is that if you reward people for loosing, without a large gap (Between rewards for winning and loosing) Then people will not try to win, they will simply log into the match and do whatever they like and not even bother to try and complete the objective because they know they are getting rewarded no matter what, and said reward is comparable to the winning team (if a bit less).

 

Providing significantly less rewards, encourages players to put forth the effort to gain skill and learn how to "win" as a team, thus making the match more fun, because in real life if you lose, you get jack ****. So you want to win so you learn how to win and practice and get better at it.

 

I believe this is a Mentality which has been missing from the MMO industry for decades. And personally I am Glad Bioware has implemented it. it means I can log into a match "usually" and know the people in that room are going to go to their limits to help me as a team member and do the best we can to win, instead of running off and doing whatever the hell they want and causing us to loose.

 

This patch takes "Complacency" out of PvP. You no longer get rewarded anywhere close for loosing, so now you have to learn to win or at least be a team player.

 

If you are not happy not being able to simply log in spam some pvp matches and get rewarded because your "EL3IT3" and can kill and do all by yourself, well sorry bout your luck, that's not what War Zones are about.

 

Warzones are about TEAM, OBJECTIVES. Don't learn how to complete the OBJECTIVES as a team, expect to loose. If you Loose, do not expect to be rewarded what you would for winning or anywhere near it.

 

Don't like it? That's cool there are plenty of other things to do in SWTOR besides PvP.

 

I would rather pvp with a team that acts like a team, then a bunch of hotheads who think their L33T because they get a lot of kills and then get mad when they loose, because they don't even get the basic understanding of the Point of a "Warzone".

 

I understand what you are saying but I simply cannot agree with it in practice. I played Warhammer Online for three years. I saw them do exactly what this PvP team is doing (not shockingly Mythic is also involved here) and I saw the number of servers go from 50+ at launch down to the two they have now. And it was because they kept catering to the gear grinding, I've spent more time playing so I should have an advantage crowd instead of encouraging casuals to PvP. Instead of rewarding people with titles for winning PvP they rewarded them with power and it cannibalized their audience as the imbalances got worse (also 2 faction RvR didn't help).

 

I also played EVE for four years so I know all about hard core, team oriented PvP where losing was not only annoying but could cost you a month of grinding out industrial goods, trading or mission running to replace what you lost in a battle. This concept is not new to me. And it should tell you something that while EVE has grown in population, most of it is "Carebear" high-sec population who dabbles in PvP and doesn't embrace it as a lifestyle choice.

 

This game developer would do well to remember where their bread is buttered and cater accordingly. Hardcore PvP-ers will still be here b/c they like to feel superior to the casuals. Casuals won't stay if they are getting nothing in return for feeding the egos of the hardcore group.

[Metalmac]

You honestly want to be rewarded for failing!? How about we just cry until BW just gives us the endgame armour without having to do anything but walk into the operation and say boo to the bosses till they give up the shiney's.

 

You are the 99%, don't want to work for rewards just get everything handed to you because you wanted to play.

 

As a note, I am not an elitest nor am I in any way a PVP God, I am a mediocre player and I'm not crying about anything. Well anything other than there are way to many servers for the amount of sub's for the game.

 

 

Do you have reading comprehension problems?

 

When you reward one side and only one side you get a permanent one sided battle.

 

And as time goes on it just gets worse and worse. This was his very valid point.

 

Look good PVP is when sides are evenly geared and evenly matched.

 

Bad PVP is when you have one side that dominates all the time.

 

If you want the problem to get worse then Bio Ware has just made it worse.

[Metalmac]

I understand what you are saying but I simply cannot agree with it in practice. I played Warhammer Online for three years. I saw them do exactly what this PvP team is doing (not shockingly Mythic is also involved here) and I saw the number of servers go from 50+ at launch down to the two they have now. And it was because they kept catering to the gear grinding, I've spent more time playing so I should have an advantage crowd instead of encouraging casuals to PvP. Instead of rewarding people with titles for winning PvP they rewarded them with power and it cannibalized their audience as the imbalances got worse (also 2 faction RvR didn't help).

 

I also played EVE for four years so I know all about hard core, team oriented PvP where losing was not only annoying but could cost you a month of grinding out industrial goods, trading or mission running to replace what you lost in a battle. This concept is not new to me. And it should tell you something that while EVE has grown in population, most of it is "Carebear" high-sec population who dabbles in PvP and doesn't embrace it as a lifestyle choice.

 

This game developer would do well to remember where their bread is buttered and cater accordingly. Hardcore PvP-ers will still be here b/c they like to feel superior to the casuals. Casuals won't stay if they are getting nothing in return for feeding the egos of the hardcore group.

 

This is exactly my point and should not be ignored.

[Kirtastropohe]

I'm a star wars nut and very happy with a lot of things in SWTOR, especially story lines. We all know,however, that no matter how good they are, at some point we will live in a world of end-game content...ie.. pvp. That's why the blatant mistakes the dev team is making with pvp related stuff is mind-boggling.

 

I'm not the greatest pvper, but pre 1.2 I could at least enjoy the matches, for the most part. I knew, thanks to the ilum fiasco that I would be outgeared when I hit 50, and for the last month or so I've been taking the punishment and slowly grinding towards better gear.

 

Now, I have to do it and get less reward. Should there be some extra stuff for winning, absolutely, but given the imbalance that exists due to the mistakes of the devs, it seems idiotic to create conditions that will allow the imbalance to continue, in fact, it will make it worse.

 

pre 1.2, I lose and feel like 'm doing something. Now, I fume as I get 38 comms for getting 7 medals...

 

I don't envy the devs...you can't please everyone, and there is tremendous pressure on them to make this succeed. I know they have a thankless job and an unwinnable position, but it just seems like things could be better. The last 2 days of pvp have been very unenjoyable.

[hiemdall]

i play on a PvE server and i played PvP at first to see what it was like and i did warzones for the credits and the xp and the comm's and valor were a plus. i never dropped out of a match even if we were getting badly beaten . and got rewarded for my efforts i never sat back or found a spot to hide until it was over . i gave my best and even tho we lost and did not get the rewards the winners got at least i got something thatr made me feel good about my efforts. now it seems if your stuck at guarding a turret or don't get a chance to obtain an objective then u don't get as many medals as those that do .even if u are out there fighting your *** off and dying trying to take or retake and objective it means nothing now. i mean someone just guarding a turret will get a 1k attack offense bonus medal and not even have attacked anyone yet and i will have been in a few fights hitting and getting hit and not even get that bonus medal for an offensive attack. so yes there a big problem here and yes the pvp damage is even worst now then it was before the patch

[Darkfjord]

I couldnt agree more, i said posted very similar to this - check out my post "PvP is Broken"

[PullinStuff]

YOU are the one who brought up the premise of individual effort, which I was responding to. I was pointing out that individual effort does not get rewarded if the team fails. Non-contributing baddies from the winning team earn more rewards.

 

To use an analogy from someone else who posted earlier, Michael Jordan: If he had an all-star performance, but his team still lost the game, did he still get paid? Of course he did. That's all we're saying here. This new "reward" system is broken. Winners should of course earn more, but losing teams should not get the shaft, especially in the form of credits.

 

 

 

You clearly have no idea what you're talking about, so I'll just join the others LOLing at you.

 

Don't steal and misuse my analogy...

 

Dismissive is defeat.

[Kelenan]

BioWare has had a very imbalanced system from the start and they chose to make it worse to cater to the people that wanted ranks and premades.

 

Problem with that is it leaves the average player in the dust and no way what so ever to compete.

 

Oh and did I say the average player PVP's by themselves.

 

There should be bonuses for people that play in teams but there needs to be a balance to the average solo player can compete.

 

BioWare just does not understand that and are going to drive off players like me away with these kind of developments to the game.

 

I think there are more people like me than people that play premades, but hey lets cater to those people and make the imbalance so out of wack noone but those people can ever win.

Edited April 14, 2012 by Kelenan

[AlyxDinas]

I love having people drop group at the first sign of trouble, causing actual trouble for the team. Jesus Christ, this system...

 

I was willing to roll with it. Deal with the reduces TTKs and stuff. But this? This is terrible.

[PullinStuff]

Do you have reading comprehension problems?

 

When you reward one side and only one side you get a permanent one sided battle.

 

And as time goes on it just gets worse and worse. This was his very valid point.

 

Look good PVP is when sides are evenly geared and evenly matched.

 

Bad PVP is when you have one side that dominates all the time.

 

If you want the problem to get worse then Bio Ware has just made it worse.

 

The point would be valid if we are looking at people being able to outgear after one or two matches....

 

There is no indication that winners get full gear in a day and losers take years.... point invalid.

[justinope]

i understand what you are saying, but the way it is now, with bad armor you will usually lose. with little to no rewards for losing, you cannot get good armor.

 

it's a giant catch-22.

 

it's even worse if you are on the non-dominant faction and you also have to deal with 1/2 filled teams, people quiting like crazy, etc.

 

whether you like the idea in theory or not, this does not and will not work in practice.

 

btw, your post would make a lot more sense if it had less to do with gear and faction disparities and more about skill.

 

this, fix this **** now

 

edit: I refuse to play anymore really, I just am so sick of getting 3 shot as a fresh recruit geared 50 sentinel and not being able to get even 3 medals no matter what I do.

Edited April 14, 2012 by justinope

[Darkness_au]

PVP is a joke, joined an existing game last night and it was about 4 or 5 mins from completion, thought what the hell, I'll stick it out.. so played to the end.. didnt really have much time to do a lot, and at the end I got ZERO anything. Not saying I should have gotten huge rewards at all, But totally nothing at all ? meh.

 

Last time I stick it out when I join a game half way through if the team is losing.

[vrgadin]

Doesn't matter if people have to spend 6 months non-stop playing to get max gear. They will do it. They will do the most monotonous unfun things just for gear. If people think about it, how much fun is it to play the same 3 warzone over and over for weeks just to get battlemaster? A free 10 yr old fps game will be so much more enjoyable yet people still play the 3 warzone over and over for a long time.

 

People will do anything just to get gear. Doesn't matter if it is fun or not. Retaining players in MMO is about prolonging the gear grind first before making the game fun. With the new changes, people will spend a lot more time trying to get gear and less time thinking about the serious flaws of this game.

 

The fact that people are more concerned about the changes to the gear grind rather than changes to abilities, healing, pvp, and balancing proves my point.

 

 

 

 

 

MMO is all about gear progression. You don't understand what a MMO is. You must be new to the genre.

Lol actually YOU are the one who looks like the genre noob. Not until wow and crappy theme parks did gear progression become the centerpiece of mmos. Real mmos like swg were about crafting, entertaining and open world pvp with rival guilds you can actually talk too. U seem to think mmo endgame is supposed to be instanced minigames,well there not, modern mmos are an abomination of what they used to be

Edited April 14, 2012 by vrgadin

[PullinStuff]

I love having people drop group at the first sign of trouble, causing actual trouble for the team. Jesus Christ, this system...

 

I was willing to roll with it. Deal with the reduces TTKs and stuff. But this? This is terrible.

 

blaming the system for the players choices is just childish.

[zythenzunare]

This is My take on the new system for pvp We have a odd ball server 10-49 empire wins the majority once you get 50 republic wins 90 + % of the time

 

This new system should have waited till you had cross server battle ground... for servers where wins losses are close I think this system is great for servers where one side absolutly dominates the other side. all this is doing is making it so the rich get richer and the poor get moved further behind.

 

Winning should get you IMHO 20 % ish more then losing for the base before medals but I am on a severe 1 side wins 90 + % of the time servers. I should not have to bust *** get 11 medals then get the bare min 40 coms the bare min valor then 0 credits for a loss when I out performed just about everyone on both sides... I should not be penalized for MY team sucking ***. In 1.15 I was getting 80 - 85 coms a match while winning got me 100ish I was fine with that but having to do really well as a healer just to get half what I was getting 2 days ago is nuts... along with not getting a single credit in almost every loss.

 

2nd Coming in mid / late game = you get nothing unless you can very quickly get 3 + medals

 

If medals are going to count for the majority or the way it is on my server almost all of my valor / coms then make credits also tied into your medal system. A star player on a ****** team still gets paid very well.

 

 

And to all the people who say only winners should get something.. take that to real world... what if at your job unless you won or were # 1 you didn't get paid. Would that fly ? then you have to face the same people who just beat you and they got new computers or new machinery to do there jobs better while you are still using what you used last time ( AkA new gear ) it can snowball very quickly.

[EchoTwoOmega]

I have to agree with you.

40 is FAR too few for losing a match.

 

For all the haters here is why:

1. It makes getting BM gear PAINFULLY slow.

 

2. It does not cover the "cost" of participating in PVP. ( eg. Consumable such as warzone medpack, warzone expertise adrenals ) They are 20 comms EACH. And you use 4 to 6 of EACH in any given warzone.

 

3. Some matches are over so fast that its impossible to even get 4 medals. For all the haters roll on a low pop server and find out yourself.

 

4. Some matches are 4 vs 8 on low pop OR faction imbalanced servers. when 2 people gang up on you, chain stun and kill you...repeatedly...its neigh impossible to get 4 medals. WORST of all they get a BONUS for "winning" fast. For you haters, go roll on a low pop server and experience it for yourself.

[Terrorble]

I was really hoping for a deserter penalty. Is there anything like that?

 

I like that the real rewards come from winning. I hope it will drive the focus toward objectives.

 

Question: Is there a way to get comparable gear to what you can get thru PvP?