Watchman vs Combat in 1.2 [PvP]

[Dkrewe]

So will Watchman still be viable? The damage of Ataru form being physical just leads to all kinds of mitigation issues I fear....

 

On the PTS people are talking about the changes actually NERFING their damage (for Combat). Will Watchman still be the best PvP spec come 1.2? Thoughts anyone?

[Rotanartlu]

Idk if they fixed the proc damage for combat on the pts yet. If not, impossible to tell. I will speculate that the 30% run speed for transcendence makes this spec more appealing. As well as the buffs to master strike.

[JRWSPACE]

I actually thought about making a new thread about this. Here is my opinion. I'm going to preface this by saying that I am a relatively new (just turned 50) sentinel.

 

I think Watchman will still dominate for PVP. Here is why.

 

First, although damage over time affects typically aren't great in PVP in various MMOs (everyone wants burst), they are awesome in this one. Why? Because of the number of stuns, knockbacks, roots, slows, and mezes that can interrupt your ability to cast the skills you want to.

 

Also, we have two skills with inductions, including our only stun. Normally we are rooted and unable to do any additional damage, but if you time them after your bleeds you can still do a ton of damage while, in this case of force stasis, even stunning them.

 

This alone would be awesome, but watchman also gives your bleeds the capability to heal both yourself and, with zen, your party. This enables a player of pretty much any skill or gear level to do the most or next to the most healing in a warzone that doesn't have any dedicated healers. This will become even more apparent with the healing nerf to commandos and sages in 1.2. I say very little skill because the group-healing utility doesn't depend on your gear at all -- as long as you are maximizing centering gain with Valour, Defensive Forms, etc. This is because it heals for a flat percentage of health -- which means the more health your team has (the better gear they are), the more you will heal.

 

Blurred Speed reduces your cooldown on Force Leap, and cannot be talented by someone in the top tier of the either combat or focus. Force leap is truly a wonderful ability. I know that Force Sweep is our "iconic" ability for the legacy system, but I really think Force Leap is more iconic for a jedi knight. The ability does the following things, as a review:

 

Interrupts (HUGE)

Gap closes (duh)

Builds focus

Deals damage

*Can be used to get to higher terrain/platforms*

*Can be used as an escape*

 

People really underestimate this ability. Reducing this cooldown by any amount is worth it. The fact that it reduces it 20% for just two skill points is unbelievable.

 

Close quarters makes this and even more effective interrupt/focus generator.

 

As if reducing that interrupt cooldown wasn't enough, only watchman specs can reduce our main interrupt by two seconds, which effectively shuts down any healing class in the hands of a talented player. You also get a better cooldown on pacify.

 

And then, of course, you have Merciless Slash itself. This rocks burst damage. Enough said.

 

ALL OF THIS was unchanged by 1.2. The only thing they really took away was our Force Camo invulnerability. We can now make Force Camo last 50% longer and increase movement speed even more. This enables us to be in stealth and taking 50% damage 13% of the time we are playing (if we wanted to). Like before, our bleeds enable this to be useful. We can still do damage while stealthed as our prey desperately tries to run away or heal, then right at 6 seconds force leap back in for the interrupt and finish them off.

 

All of this is why I can't believe people think combat has more group utility in PVP post-1.2. Yes, you get 3 roots, and roots are great in this game. You get questionably better burst, and maybe better focus generation. The problem is that focus gives you brief windows of burst, and if you miss it, you lose. I think it's safe for me to say that very few players will be able to predict the stuns/roots/etc. in warzones to the point where they can have confidence that their burst will get off in any fight. In that way, combat is more of a wildcard build. It seems like something best suited for ganking people in world pvp.

 

Here's a big drawback of combat in 1.2: The Ataru procs are now weapon damage. This will reduce the burst against high armor/defense classes enormously. You still have blade storm, but this will in no way compare to the damage dealt by bleeds of watchmen, which are force attacks. They did increase ataru procs and supposedly fix their bugs, though.

 

I am willing to accept any input on this theorycrafting, especially from experienced sentinels and/or, even better, those testing the changes out on PTS. Please let me know if any of this makes sense.

[KruelhandJorb]

I wanted to switch to Combat in all honesty but they've made Watchman better in 1.2 that negates for me what they've done with Combat... I think Combat will still be very good but in the roll I like to take in PvP, watchman is far better for what I'm trying to do then what combat is capable of.

[witelightnin]

To JRWSPACE:

 

Great summary. After reading through what you posted I completely agree and what you are saying makes total sense. The biggest point you hit on I think is the fact that combat burst is dependant upon a very small time window, and if you are stunned during that window, you are pretty much screwed. With watchman, it's not really dependant on anything but your CD's. I am ALWAYS generating good damage in watchman through either burns OR big hitters like Merciless and Master Strike. I'll definitely be staying watchman spec post 1.2.

[AdamLKvist]

I actually thought about making a new thread about this. Here is my opinion. I'm going to preface this by saying that I am a relatively new (just turned 50) sentinel.

 

I think Watchman will still dominate for PVP. Here is why.

 

First, although damage over time affects typically aren't great in PVP in various MMOs (everyone wants burst), they are awesome in this one. Why? Because of the number of stuns, knockbacks, roots, slows, and mezes that can interrupt your ability to cast the skills you want to.

 

Also, we have two skills with inductions, including our only stun. Normally we are rooted and unable to do any additional damage, but if you time them after your bleeds you can still do a ton of damage while, in this case of force stasis, even stunning them.

 

This alone would be awesome, but watchman also gives your bleeds the capability to heal both yourself and, with zen, your party. This enables a player of pretty much any skill or gear level to do the most or next to the most healing in a warzone that doesn't have any dedicated healers. This will become even more apparent with the healing nerf to commandos and sages in 1.2. I say very little skill because the group-healing utility doesn't depend on your gear at all -- as long as you are maximizing centering gain with Valour, Defensive Forms, etc. This is because it heals for a flat percentage of health -- which means the more health your team has (the better gear they are), the more you will heal.

 

Blurred Speed reduces your cooldown on Force Leap, and cannot be talented by someone in the top tier of the either combat or focus. Force leap is truly a wonderful ability. I know that Force Sweep is our "iconic" ability for the legacy system, but I really think Force Leap is more iconic for a jedi knight. The ability does the following things, as a review:

 

Interrupts (HUGE)

Gap closes (duh)

Builds focus

Deals damage

*Can be used to get to higher terrain/platforms*

*Can be used as an escape*

 

People really underestimate this ability. Reducing this cooldown by any amount is worth it. The fact that it reduces it 20% for just two skill points is unbelievable.

 

Close quarters makes this and even more effective interrupt/focus generator.

 

As if reducing that interrupt cooldown wasn't enough, only watchman specs can reduce our main interrupt by two seconds, which effectively shuts down any healing class in the hands of a talented player. You also get a better cooldown on pacify.

 

And then, of course, you have Merciless Slash itself. This rocks burst damage. Enough said.

 

ALL OF THIS was unchanged by 1.2. The only thing they really took away was our Force Camo invulnerability. We can now make Force Camo last 50% longer and increase movement speed even more. This enables us to be in stealth and taking 50% damage 13% of the time we are playing (if we wanted to). Like before, our bleeds enable this to be useful. We can still do damage while stealthed as our prey desperately tries to run away or heal, then right at 6 seconds force leap back in for the interrupt and finish them off.

 

All of this is why I can't believe people think combat has more group utility in PVP post-1.2. Yes, you get 3 roots, and roots are great in this game. You get questionably better burst, and maybe better focus generation. The problem is that focus gives you brief windows of burst, and if you miss it, you lose. I think it's safe for me to say that very few players will be able to predict the stuns/roots/etc. in warzones to the point where they can have confidence that their burst will get off in any fight. In that way, combat is more of a wildcard build. It seems like something best suited for ganking people in world pvp.

 

Here's a big drawback of combat in 1.2: The Ataru procs are now weapon damage. This will reduce the burst against high armor/defense classes enormously. You still have blade storm, but this will in no way compare to the damage dealt by bleeds of watchmen, which are force attacks. They did increase ataru procs and supposedly fix their bugs, though.

 

I am willing to accept any input on this theorycrafting, especially from experienced sentinels and/or, even better, those testing the changes out on PTS. Please let me know if any of this makes sense.

 

What he said.

 

Watchman is the coward's way out cause you can't do bad.

Combat is the fool's way out since you'll only do good (enough) if the stars align.

[Spungey]

the only downside to Watchman come 1.2 is you can't burn focus through cyclone slash anymore.

 

until burns get affected by armor/stats..it will more than likely be the go to spec.

 

31/5/3 with 2 points to throw around comes with amazing ST and now some decent AoE dmg from Swirling Winds.

 

and your perspective about watchman being a cowards way out is entirely off bases..I respect your opinion but honestly..what does choosing the watchman tree have to do with being a coward. It may still be the better of the 3, but imo..it's still the harder to achieve success with.

 

In any case. Whoever runs the sentinel/marauder has to suck playing at it. We are in a good place pre 1.2 and more than likely the threads of how Overpowered we will be post 1.2 will increase. They turned almost every other class into glass and us into carbon fiber..of course not everyone succeeds as sentinel/marauder but there has to be some give and take.

 

Overall we got a decent buff/fix whatever you wanna call it. while everyone else got ram'd.

 

I give it 2 weeks post 1.2 before we are hit with a nerf bat..and more than likely to hard.

[Rotanartlu]

I actually thought about making a new thread about this. Here is my opinion. I'm going to preface this by saying that I am a relatively new (just turned 50) sentinel.

 

I think Watchman will still dominate for PVP. Here is why.

 

First, although damage over time affects typically aren't great in PVP in various MMOs (everyone wants burst), they are awesome in this one. Why? Because of the number of stuns, knockbacks, roots, slows, and mezes that can interrupt your ability to cast the skills you want to.

 

Also, we have two skills with inductions, including our only stun. Normally we are rooted and unable to do any additional damage, but if you time them after your bleeds you can still do a ton of damage while, in this case of force stasis, even stunning them.

 

This alone would be awesome, but watchman also gives your bleeds the capability to heal both yourself and, with zen, your party. This enables a player of pretty much any skill or gear level to do the most or next to the most healing in a warzone that doesn't have any dedicated healers. This will become even more apparent with the healing nerf to commandos and sages in 1.2. I say very little skill because the group-healing utility doesn't depend on your gear at all -- as long as you are maximizing centering gain with Valour, Defensive Forms, etc. This is because it heals for a flat percentage of health -- which means the more health your team has (the better gear they are), the more you will heal.

 

Blurred Speed reduces your cooldown on Force Leap, and cannot be talented by someone in the top tier of the either combat or focus. Force leap is truly a wonderful ability. I know that Force Sweep is our "iconic" ability for the legacy system, but I really think Force Leap is more iconic for a jedi knight. The ability does the following things, as a review:

 

Interrupts (HUGE)

Gap closes (duh)

Builds focus

Deals damage

*Can be used to get to higher terrain/platforms*

*Can be used as an escape*

 

People really underestimate this ability. Reducing this cooldown by any amount is worth it. The fact that it reduces it 20% for just two skill points is unbelievable.

 

Close quarters makes this and even more effective interrupt/focus generator.

 

As if reducing that interrupt cooldown wasn't enough, only watchman specs can reduce our main interrupt by two seconds, which effectively shuts down any healing class in the hands of a talented player. You also get a better cooldown on pacify.

 

And then, of course, you have Merciless Slash itself. This rocks burst damage. Enough said.

 

ALL OF THIS was unchanged by 1.2. The only thing they really took away was our Force Camo invulnerability. We can now make Force Camo last 50% longer and increase movement speed even more. This enables us to be in stealth and taking 50% damage 13% of the time we are playing (if we wanted to). Like before, our bleeds enable this to be useful. We can still do damage while stealthed as our prey desperately tries to run away or heal, then right at 6 seconds force leap back in for the interrupt and finish them off.

 

All of this is why I can't believe people think combat has more group utility in PVP post-1.2. Yes, you get 3 roots, and roots are great in this game. You get questionably better burst, and maybe better focus generation. The problem is that focus gives you brief windows of burst, and if you miss it, you lose. I think it's safe for me to say that very few players will be able to predict the stuns/roots/etc. in warzones to the point where they can have confidence that their burst will get off in any fight. In that way, combat is more of a wildcard build. It seems like something best suited for ganking people in world pvp.

 

Here's a big drawback of combat in 1.2: The Ataru procs are now weapon damage. This will reduce the burst against high armor/defense classes enormously. You still have blade storm, but this will in no way compare to the damage dealt by bleeds of watchmen, which are force attacks. They did increase ataru procs and supposedly fix their bugs, though.

 

I am willing to accept any input on this theorycrafting, especially from experienced sentinels and/or, even better, those testing the changes out on PTS. Please let me know if any of this makes sense.

 

with all due respect solid opinion but i have to say:

1. elemental damage is different than force attacks(kinetic is still affected by armor).

2. 1.2 patch stasis+exhaustion will be better burst/easier to set up than burn+stasis and totally usable due to zen talent

3. watchman is losing +30% transcendence which is a deal breaker with all the roots and slows going around in rated

4. the best burst about watchman atm is dots+master strike which all three specs are going to love the buff come 1.2 so pretty even there across the board

5. focus really has 3 roots all tied into its normal rotation (exhaustion is a root just different mechanic)

6. the awe change brings all the specs closer as far as interrupting goes. ie easier to kite a watchman

7. dispels hurt watchmen

Edited April 10, 2012 by Rotanartlu

[jbuschell]

Oh cmon now don't crap all over watchman bro, it will still be a very viable spec and I think rateds should roll with both a combat and a watchman, combat for the better transcendence and watchman to call targets with crippling throw and lock down heals, they wont be crap like you think, they still bring the better ability to lock down heals, and you gotta realize healers wont able to cleanse everything especially if your rolling with a balance sage and a df slinger

[nanohana]

Watchman is and will be superior to Combat. Only thing to break Watchman are healers quick at dispelling, of which aren't too many around luckily.

[Spungey]

elemental is different than force? dubya tee eff to that.

 

Our elemental burns are considered force attacks and they are yellow damage..which the only thing that decreases that dmg is internal/elemental resistances..not defense. wow..

 

and the guy is right. Ataru procs after 1.2 are weapon damage procs. thats why the damage from it took a downfall.

 

 

i just don't get why people say watchman has no burst potential. Cauterize + Overload Saber dots rolling with a 5k Merc Slash is bursty for me. 5k + 1400 (OS Dot) + 600 (Cauterize Dot). 7k damage in 1 global cool-down to a Single Target is pretty damn good burst.

 

well those are my cents given

[Dkrewe]

It seems to me that a healer dispelling the DoTs is a healer wasting a GCD that could have been spent on healing someone. If the DoT is not doing damage it is still helping kill the target by delaying and distracting the healer.

 

From prior MMO experience, cleansing DoTs can be a full-time job for a healer and really lower their actual healing output. The DoTs are so incredibly easy to apply as well.

 

So is the general consensus that the damage will be about the same and the only real deal-breaker for a lot is that 30% runspeed?

[Rotanartlu]

elemental is different than force? dubya tee eff to that.

 

Our elemental burns are considered force attacks and they are yellow damage..which the only thing that decreases that dmg is internal/elemental resistances..not defense. wow..

 

and the guy is right. Ataru procs after 1.2 are weapon damage procs. thats why the damage from it took a downfall.

 

 

i just don't get why people say watchman has no burst potential. Cauterize + Overload Saber dots rolling with a 5k Merc Slash is bursty for me. 5k + 1400 (OS Dot) + 600 (Cauterize Dot). 7k damage in 1 global cool-down to a Single Target is pretty damn good burst.

 

well those are my cents given

 

watchman has good burst. even better than that rotation. I'm just saying "force attacks" can be both energy and kinetic so be more specific

[ProfessorWalsh]

and the guy is right. Ataru procs after 1.2 are weapon damage procs. thats why the damage from it took a downfall.

 

Actually Ataru procs took a downfall because they were accidentally incorrectly set. That has been fixed on the PTS and now all Ataru hits do approximately 10% more damage now on the PTS than they do on live.

 

There are some things which may put Combat spec up to Watchman's level...

 

+15% damage on Master Strike with Combat's ability to root a target while doing Master Strike can be huge in damage. Combined with 100% armor mitigation from Precision and auto crits on the old standby of Blade Storm it can really add up to quite a bit of direct burst.

[Ainianu]

and the guy is right. Ataru procs after 1.2 are weapon damage procs. thats why the damage from it took a downfall.

 

This is actually incorrect. a common misconception is that force attacks ignore armour when it infact does not, it only ignores defence/shield (which only tanks have high enough to have any chance of lowering damage or deflecting attack)

 

so the move to weapon damage and increased damage is most certainly a marked improvement on anything other than tanks... i am actually fine with that

[Rotanartlu]

yep it is Edited April 11, 2012 by Rotanartlu

[JRWSPACE]

I should have been more specific, and I was a bit confused myself.

 

MELEE attacks (we don't have ranged, even the saber throws are melee) are able to be DODGED. Dodge is boostable by the defense rating stat, talents, and buffs. There is also an inherent 5% base.

 

FORCE attacks are only avoided by RESISTANCE, which can only be increased with talents and buffs but has a 0% base.

 

This means that your melee attacks will usually miss 5% more often than force attacks, thought I suppose it is possible for people to have a higher resistance than defense rating. You may say to yourself "bah, that really doesn't seem like a big deal". Well, this is just for AVOIDANCE.

 

Another die is rolled for every attack, and that's for mitigation. For mitigation, it doesn't matter whether the attack is melee, ranged, force, or tech. What matters are things like expertise, talents, shield chance, and. . DAMAGE type: energy, kinetic, internal, and elemental.

 

Simply put, energy and kinetic ("weapon") damage are mitigated by armor. Internal and elemental are not.

 

Guess which abilities are the ONLY ones that deal elemental or internal damage?

 

The bleed damage from cauterize and overload saber.

 

THAT'S IT. With the exception of during the precision buff, all other damage a sentinel does will be mitigated by armor.

 

I am by no means saying combat isn't getting upgraded and is not viable. My opinion, though, is that the possible burst increase (which you must admit relies on a multitude of factors that in the thick of battle will be beyond a single player's control) is not worth the utility provided by the watchman tree that I spelled out in my previous post.

 

EDIT: I meant to link my source for this information; I would have been very negligent to not point out all the fine work Taugrim did in making this stuff a little easier for someone like me to understand: http://taugrim.com/2012/01/19/understanding-swtors-avoidance-and-mitigation-mechanics-for-tanks-in-pvp/

Edited April 11, 2012 by JRWSPACE

[babiegirlla]

I should have been more specific, and I was a bit confused myself.

 

MELEE attacks (we don't have ranged, even the saber throws are melee) are able to be DODGED. Dodge is boostable by the defense rating stat, talents, and buffs. There is also an inherent 5% base.

 

FORCE attacks are only avoided by RESISTANCE, which can only be increased with talents and buffs but has a 0% base.

 

This means that your melee attacks will usually miss 5% more often than force attacks, thought I suppose it is possible for people to have a higher resistance than defense rating. You may say to yourself "bah, that really doesn't seem like a big deal". Well, this is just for AVOIDANCE.

 

Another die is rolled for every attack, and that's for mitigation. For mitigation, it doesn't matter whether the attack is melee, ranged, force, or tech. What matters are things like expertise, talents, shield chance, and. . DAMAGE type: energy, kinetic, internal, and elemental.

 

Simply put, energy and kinetic ("weapon") damage are mitigated by armor. Internal and elemental are not.

 

Guess which abilities are the ONLY ones that deal elemental or internal damage?

 

The bleed damage from cauterize and overload saber.

 

THAT'S IT. With the exception of during the precision buff, all other damage a sentinel does will be mitigated by armor.

 

I am by no means saying combat isn't getting upgraded and is not viable. My opinion, though, is that the possible burst increase (which you must admit relies on a multitude of factors that in the thick of battle will be beyond a single player's control) is not worth the utility provided by the watchman tree that I spelled out in my previous post.

 

EDIT: I meant to link my source for this information; I would have been very negligent to not point out all the fine work Taugrim did in making this stuff a little easier for someone like me to understand: http://taugrim.com/2012/01/19/understanding-swtors-avoidance-and-mitigation-mechanics-for-tanks-in-pvp/

 

 

combat is very capable of great burst damage, and watchman does great sustained as well, MS is great for a bit of a burst every now and then. damage of the two specs isn`t really the issue, and if you compare utility, okay.

 

Watchman:

Shorter interrupt

Heals from zen

 

Combat:

Crippling throw root

Master strike root

Trans in high tier combat, now effecting an entire raid, built onto being able to build centering as fast as watchman, the extra move + defense is big.

 

Utility isn`t much different, damage is sustained vs burst, and with healers, it won`t matter if you`re knocked back and have burns on your target and smack zen, in rateds, that damage is meaningless. IMO we are a pure dps class that should do one thing and one thing well: using burst damage and as much damage as you can to take a target down. I`ve always felt, combat did that better, but lacked utility. Trans helps with that, the only thing missing is a lower kick for healers. A combat + watchman sent in 8 mans would be great.

 

i`ve played combat before anyone else bothered to play it, I know two or three really great sents that played it as well. it`s underrated, and will always continue to be so.

[Jdaddy]

Watchmen and focus can carry a teams damage if played right, combat wont be able to do that, but combat is going to have a valuable role in a good premade

[Ryat]

Agree, Watchman didn't really get a nerf, force sweep may no longer cost only 1 focus but you can increase it damage off the focus tree and still have plenty to invest into the Watchman spec. After that nothing PvP wise got nerfed.

[JRWSPACE]

Agree, Watchman didn't really get a nerf, force sweep may no longer cost only 1 focus but you can increase it damage off the focus tree and still have plenty to invest into the Watchman spec. After that nothing PvP wise got nerfed.

 

Except Force Camo invulnerability. . and cyclone slash spam centering generation.

[SithCosno]

I've played a lot of both Combat and Watchman, none of focus.

 

I started as combat and when i respecced to watchman i noticed a definate increase in damage but i really missed combats utility in pvp. the root on master strike and crippling throw are a pretty big deal. so is the force camo breaking roots/slow.

 

the master strike buff effects all specs so that negates each other since it gives the same increase in damage to all specs, other than that watchmans damage wasnt buffed. combat on the other hand had its damage increased directly through ataru proc damage buff and indirectly from Valor being available to all 3 specs now. the more frequent Zen on combat is going to be big in helping combat catch up with watchman in damage.

 

they will be a lot closer in damage but watchman will be the spec to go for straight damage while combat will give you better utility.