Stealing aggro from tank = leet dps?

[Qonor]

As my gear has gotten better, on some single-target boss fights, while with various different tanks (assassins, powertechs, and juggernauts), I sometimes steal aggro from tanks midway through the fight. I'm not talking about fights with aggro drops or weird mechanics.

 

In WoW this was a sign of 1) a very high damage character as compared to the tank or 2) a tank with poor threat.

 

What do you guys think? Is it OK to use this as a measure that my damage is pretty good? I'm trying to find some meaningful ways of gauging my personal damage since I've played tanks and healers in prior MMOs, so it's pretty cool to try something new. Thanks.

[dnoisette]

Playing both tanks and dps roles in this game I'd say it's most likely about the amount of threat generated by the tank that is too low. Edited April 7, 2012 by dnoisette

[Qonor]

Playing both tanks and dps roles in this game I'd say it's most likely about the amount of threat generated.

 

Interesting. So generally speaking, a tank should never lose aggro on a tank and spank single-target encounter? Even if the dps class pumps out a lot of damage?

Edited April 7, 2012 by Qonor

[VonFinklestein]

Not necessarily; some enemies have threat dumps.

[dnoisette]

Interesting. So generally speaking, a tank should never lose aggro on a tank and spank single-target encounter? Even if the dps class pumps out a lot of damage?

 

Well I'm not saying this shouldn't happen. Alright, I'm gonna go for the long story part.

 

I have both an Assassin and a Juggernaut at the moment that are both tanks with dps gear for PvP and tank gear for PvE. I have never lost aggro to anyone with my Assassin. If you play clever and use your brain to rotate abilities effectively then there's no reason why any DPS should be able to pull aggro from you. Might be a learn to play issue but I find it to be a completely different story with my Juggernaut. I have a feeling that it does miss a lot on threat generation. In a situation when I'm running a flashpoint with two DPS and a healer, I have to be very careful at handling large groups of mobs. This has to do with a poor AoE threat generation that is specific to the Juggernaut/Guardian. In order to tank effectively and keep aggro on multiple targets I have to switch them regularly. On a single target however, there's no problem.

 

Two possible alternatives:

 

1) The DPS I have played with over the last few months weren't that skilled OR

2) An effective tank should never be loosing aggro to anyone (at least in a single target encounter)

 

EDIT:

 

Not necessarily; some enemies have threat dumps.

 

Indeed but I'm talking generally not considering specific cases.

Edited April 7, 2012 by dnoisette

[Qonor]

I'm not talking about fights with aggro drops or weird mechanics.

 

Not necessarily; some enemies have threat dumps.

 

Why even post?

 

 

Well I'm not saying this shouldn't happen. Alright, I'm gonna go for the long story part.

 

I have both an Assassin and a Juggernaut at the moment that are both tanks with dps gear for PvP and tank gear for PvE. I have never lost aggro to anyone with my Assassin. If you play clever and use your brain to rotate abilities effectively then there's no reason why any DPS should be able to pull aggro from you. Might be a learn to play issue but I find it to be a completely different story with my Juggernaut. I have a feeling that it does miss a lot on threat generation. In a situation when I'm running a flashpoint with two DPS and a healer, I have to be very careful at handling large groups of mobs. This has to do with a poor AoE threat generation that is specific to the Juggernaut/Guardian. In order to tank effectively and keep aggro on multiple targets I have to switch them regularly. On a single target however, there's no problem.

 

Two possible alternatives:

 

1) The DPS I have played with over the last few months weren't that skilled OR

2) An effective tank should never be loosing aggro to anyone (at least in a single target encounter)

 

EDIT:

 

 

 

Indeed but I'm talking generally not considering specific cases.

 

Interesting. Although as I mentioned in my original post, I do not at all care about multi-target threat. This is about single-target threat on tank and spank fights. So even high dps shouldn't pull? Interesting.

Edited April 7, 2012 by Qonor

[VonFinklestein]

Because I didn't read.

 

 

+1

[ACLucius]

Your damage is pretty good if you are able to beat the enrage timers. That is what you should measure yourself by. My two friends and I (they are a tank and healer) are able to do hard modes with just the three of us and a companion. I know my DPS is good because the companion is not geared out much and we can beat the enrages. However, I know that I am a good DPS because I am able to maximize my damage without stealing threat.

 

Just because you are stealing aggro doesn't mean you are a good DPS or that the tank is poor at keeping his/her threat up. It just means you exceeded your threat and are not using your threat dumps as much as you should. Being a good DPS and having high DPS do not mean the same thing.

[ViperI]

As my gear has gotten better, on some single-target boss fights, while with various different tanks (assassins, powertechs, and juggernauts), I sometimes steal aggro from tanks midway through the fight. I'm not talking about fights with aggro drops or weird mechanics.

 

In WoW this was a sign of 1) a very high damage character as compared to the tank or 2) a tank with poor threat.

 

What do you guys think? Is it OK to use this as a measure that my damage is pretty good? I'm trying to find some meaningful ways of gauging my personal damage since I've played tanks and healers in prior MMOs, so it's pretty cool to try something new. Thanks.

 

If you're taking agro during an ops encounter, you're doing it wrong (assuming, of course, that your tank isn't a derp-de-derp). Several DPS classes have a threat reducing ability, it should be used on cooldown, no exceptions. If you don't have one, you have to watch what you're doing and not over-agro. This is a skill that I have noticed many DPS players either failed to learn or have forgotten over their time playing MMOs. DPS players need to pace themselves, it's a balancing act and it adds to the challenge of the game when tanks and DPS have to work together to manage threat.

 

If you want to pull agro and flex your epeen, go for it, but I don't need a threat meter to tell you how much dps you do while dead.

[Ibiza-Vin]

Speaking as a tank, it's almost impossible to lose aggro during a tank and spank fight after the first ~30 seconds due to how taunt works.

 

If you pulled, you must have gotten a big series of crits in the initial stages of the fight, or your tank is using an ineffectual rotation.

 

If you accurately want to check your DPS, you have to wait for 1.2 and combat log data.

[Fall_Star]

It means the DPS is NOT properly doing their role most of the time. If you die, it is your fault. If tank dies, it is the healer's fault. If healer dies, it is the tank's fault.

 

You should utilize YOUR threat dumps (i.e. Surrender for Smugglers) to assist the tank.

 

In no way should it be an excuse to tell the tank to do a better job or that you have "epix" damage dealing abilities.

 

On a side note: If you are forced to lower the DPS b/c of this re-occurring problem even AFTER utilizing your threat dumps, and the boss is enraging, then it is indeed the tank's fault.

[Doubledeath]

Like tho other people have said no one should be able to pull aggro off a tank if they are doing their job and know how to play. Also we have no idea how threat in this game actually works mostly it seems to me some abilities have higher threat building than other and have no relation to the damage that you do. You can see this in cases were u have a guardian, shadow, or vanguard dps. They will most likely be the 2nd person on the threat list and has nothing to do with them doing more damage or being in a tank stance or form or what ever. After running the same HM's and ops with me the tank and the same healer and same 1 dps u can easily see how good or bad dps is across other classes that you bring along as the 4rth player. So I know that guardian, vanguard, and shadows do not do the dps that a sage, commando, or sentinel can do but they pull way more threat and don't really have threat dropping abilities. So in the case that we have no idea how the threat mechanics actually work I would not base your damage from your class on how much threat you draw. Testing this theory of other abilities pulling more threat and doing less damage than other is repetable on my sage. The consular abilities tend to draw more threat than the sage abilities. And true for my sentinel where knight abilities draw more threat than sentinel abilities and backwards for my tank. My guardian abilities draw more threat than my knight abilities. Not sure if any of this is true or repeatable by other as it is only my general experience and like I said we have no hard data to compare and type of threat corralation with total damage or what ever. Hope this helps.

[Arunas]

Yesterday I DPSed for the first time in DPS columni/BM gear as pyrotech powertech (used iron first/tank build up until now for pve). We were doing Karraga and if I got too many railshot proc in a row I would steal the threat from boss, which is practically a wipe for this boss. Since powertechs have no threat reduction skills the only thing I could do was to slow down, but then we were hitting enrage timers. Hopefully it will be easier in 1.2 with more consistent damage and combat logs to show what is going on, but anyway I am puzzled how I could have dealt with this situation.

[Valhalyn]

If you are grabbing aggro I'm willing to call your tank a failure. Most WoW Crossover tanks have this idea that guard should be used on the healer because its the most effective place to put it.

 

In reality healing threat in this game is rather low. So if you steal aggro once on a single target trash mob, your Tank should adapt and put Guard on you, as its clear that you're an aggro whore and will need the protection.

[kuey]

Only played Guardian tank so far so can only speak for them and I really don't see how we can lose threat on Boss fights. Guardian leap + guardian strike + taunts... You lose threat you're doing something VERY wrong.

[JLapp]

If you are pulling aggro early in a fight...that is the fault of the DPS. Tanks only generate threat so fast and generally lack the burst of most DPS classes.

 

If you are pulling aggro past the first 20s or so, on a single target, without a threat drop, that is the fault of a tank.

[Canis_Anubis]

Give the tank a buffer, and use your threat dump. The tank's job is to keep aggro off the healer, not off you.

[clearsighted]

Interesting. So generally speaking, a tank should never lose aggro on a tank and spank single-target encounter? Even if the dps class pumps out a lot of damage?

 

Provided that the boss doesn't have a threat dump, and the tank has his Guard on you, then they should never lose threat.

 

Nor does it matter in the first 15 seconds of a fight. So what if you can drop a huge opening burst at the start as the tank ramps up?

[ShadowAxx]

I think we need to know which specific bosses are being compared.

 

Some bosses switch their focus in a random manor regardless of threat. The 1st big boss on KP is like this.

 

Some bosses will switch after a dump and jump to highest DPS. This happens with the Bonus Droid in Black Talon, the one triggered by the 4/4 consoles.

 

In the case of KP 1st boss, you just need to keep rolling and heal thru the damage. In the case of BT HM, you can also heal thru the switch as the tank will reacquire aggro, but it can be a little tougher on the healer. If the healer can't keep up, you need to get out of LOS and let the tank get aggro back.

 

Honestly, my BH/Merc threat reduction has never seemed to work, or at least hasn't worked very quickly.

 

Having played with both well geared tanks and fresh 50 (green) tanks, I'd prefer to roll with the stronger tank. Although it's not all about stats, a fresh 50 who knows what they are doing can do a better job, especially when interrupts are key.

[JLapp]

Honestly, my BH/Merc threat reduction has never seemed to work, or at least hasn't worked very quickly.

 

That is because it is only a 25% threat drop and you need 30% more threat to pull. So by the time you pull it is too late for the ability to be useful.

[ShadowAxx]

That is because it is only a 25% threat drop and you need 30% more threat to pull. So by the time you pull it is too late for the ability to be useful.

 

So, what's the proper use of the threat reduction? It should be used as often as if comes off of cooldown?

[Ricktur]

i think what the OP was hoping for, was that we'd all get on here and say, "yeah man, if you are pulling aggro off of the tank then your dps must be through the roof!!! man you are so awesome!! can i see your build?! whats your rotation?! I want to be like you!!!"

 

this is a pathetic attempt at, please worship me.

[KorinHyvek]

Just to be clear, if you look at the data for what pure threat dumps (Chaff Burst, Surrender, etc) actually do...

 

ModifyThreat: AmountPercent=>-0.25

 

Compare to Intercede (A Juggernaught ability which leaps to an allied target and drops their threat)...

 

ModifyThreat: AmountPercent=>-25

 

 

Notice the distinct lack of a decimal place in the second ability? At least at one point, Threat Dumps didn't actually work. It's quite possible BW has fixed them and Torhead hasn't update since then, but if they haven't, you shouldn't waste a spot on your quickbar for a measly .25% reduction in threat.

[Yazule]

Is it OK to use this as a measure that my damage is pretty good? I'm trying to find some meaningful ways of gauging my personal damage since I've played tanks and healers in prior MMOs, so it's pretty cool to try something new. Thanks.

 

Get the Mox dps/healing meter... real time understanding of your dps. If your dps>1200 you are doing good, rauders get up to 1400 sometimes, anything below 1000 on any given boss fight is rather bad unless you have to move/run/avoid damage a lot.

[Elyx]

1.2 is out. you can dump your logs and stare and compare. There's currently a thread started for people to post their results.

 

As to your question about whether or not you can use it as a baseline? No. I wouldn't. as you've noticed above, there's far too many variables in play to take into account whether or not pulling is an indication of your dps potention, or the tanks bad rotation. or bad choice in targets on your side...or missing the wrong button (I've hit my taunt by accident at times when im DPS;ing on my jugg...habit.)

 

Unlike the ez-mode some MMO's have become, this game requires DPS to manage their threat. so it's a balancing act. teh fact that you are pulling aggro should incite you to analyze your own performance, and determine why. Are you hitting the same mob the tank is? are you bursting out the door and getting aggro in the first 5 seconds? then give the tank a few more seconds to grab aggro. is it happening at regular intervals? perhaps your not using your de-aggro ability as you should.

 

Unfortunately, EZ mode games have given threat a bad rep. In this game, it's a battle mechanic that you have to pay attention to. BOTH the tank and the DPS have to

 

.and some aspects of threat don't matter. as a tank, I could care less if my buddy mauarader or sorc pull a silver off of me as im tanking the champs and elites. If they can't handle a silver then there's a serious L2P issue there. But even then, I enjoy pulling it back with a well placed taunt, and watching them beat on it while it walks back. a well placed backhand and i got firm aggro on the mob.

 

But a good DPS will know when to back off. I know some peeps don't think a DPS "should" have to do that....but that's a relatively new MMO idea that has only surfaced with certain other games. It's certainly not an industry standard, nor should it be. And SWtOR has a pretty decent balance IMO. if DPS and tank are doing their jobs, threats never an issue. if one of them isn't doing their job, threat can be a small issue. If both aren't doing their job, the threat game sucks.

Edited April 30, 2012 by Elyx